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#372784 - 12/04/07 02:16 PM Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited.
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1736
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Y'all: I found this at another web site, and liked it. Brad (Butterfly) suggested that I post it here, since he agreed the article has merit and to see what you guys had to say. As it's been a while since the last time the eternal kata argument flared up, the little devil-me that sits at my left shoulder whispered in my ear that yeah, I should do as Brad suggested. So here goes:

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2007/11/25/the-relationship-between-kata-and-kumite/

I like Redmond. He's sort of a JKA Martin Luther.
Thoughts?
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

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#372785 - 12/04/07 03:02 PM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: MAGon]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
I got so far in to reading it. Then I stopped .
From my limited kata studies I totaly disagree.
I think the guy is refering to one style

I feel the writer more than likely just does kata for a grade. Ask the same guy about his thoughts on kata applications ?
Be nice to see them..

I believe people do a sort of controlled sparring using the techniques in certain kata ? Problem is to do that
they have to know what is in there, drill it and be able to use it.
But I am just at the beggining of my studies.

Even so I can still see the above points.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/04/07 03:11 PM)

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#372786 - 12/04/07 03:48 PM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
i've read a afew articles on this guys web page, and i like the way he aroaches things in the martial arts world. being that i pratice JKA shotokan, i kinda have to live with the imractical kata that leads nowhere debate like a drken monkey on my shoulder.

i pratice kata for alot of reasons, one of them is because im told to. i just happnen to like. i think there are lots of benifets to it, it helps with alot of basic principals, and advanced ones, if you consider traditional karate to be part of your life, you likely know what im talking about.

the straight parallel lines that can be drawn from kata to the JKA style ippon sparring, are not that many in my books. i pratices kata for application foremost, application does not transfer to sparing with a friend that well, at least i don't think. there are rules in sparing that limit conduct, for safety, and kata is about doing very unsafe things to someone else.

im actually torn about testing for further belts, due to some personal differenfces with my training. then i remind myself i trin with the ITKF, not the other way around. so i keep alot of my personal thoughts about this stuff to myself.

some people will extrapolate more from kata pratice, good for them. i have been tought by people who preach kata it kumite is kihon, im not gonna tell them there wrong. but i will supliment my training to my needs, and kata is for dirty dighting. ippon sparing is done for another reason. do they feed off each other? im not so convinced.

you say your just a student in the martial arts jude, so from one student to another, i'm gonna give you some advice you never asked for ( ) the man who wrote the article could probaly drop both our asses at the same time. his idea of sparing is the jka ippon sparing, maybe different then the sparing you've praticed. but i speaking as a JKA competetor i agree with him, i've spared and preformed kata in tourniments, and i had to practice both to learn how to win.
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#372787 - 12/04/07 03:54 PM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: MAGon]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
The author of that post makes several statements I disagree with, to wit:

Those who are highly successful in one area are almost never successful in the other. (not so; in fact it seems to me that good fighters are also good kata practitioners, and vice versa)

The body is kept high, not in a deep stance, to allow for mobility and maneuverability. (Isshinryu stances are all high)

Perform a kata, and you will notice that you step in deep, formal, almost robotic fashion. (I like to be smoooooth)

Kata utterly lacks interaction with another person. There is no need to outwit another person or change and adapt to their strategy. (look deeper)

To practice one is at the expense, not the benefit of the other. (you can find worthwhile sparring techniques in the kata).

Even if this guy were right, so what? Does he think sparring will be the end-all, be-all in real, no rules self-defense? There are many vicious techniques in kata you can't use in sparring.
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#372788 - 12/04/07 05:04 PM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

you say your just a student in the martial arts jude, so from one student to another, i'm gonna give you some advice you never asked for ( ) the man who wrote the article could probaly drop both our asses at the same time. his idea of sparing is the jka ippon sparing, maybe different then the sparing you've praticed. but i speaking as a JKA competetor i agree with him, i've spared and preformed kata in tourniments, and i had to practice both to learn how to win.




Interesting.

Regards the guy being a great fighter and your best guess as to what would/might happen in such and such a scenario.
I tend not to rise to things like that. I am but a mere student.

If you want my advise considering your outlook(from a student to student seen as you advised me) might I suggest that you consider looking at Kanazawa sensies art. It would not interfere with your present karate studies.
Kanazawa sensie( 10 th dan shotokan) studied tai chi and the katas of nahe-te.
The guy who wrote the article I dont agree with any of it. Didnt he say kata was to robotic?. His comments are I think style/ to competition style biased.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/04/07 05:08 PM)

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#372789 - 12/04/07 05:44 PM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: jude33]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
This is nonsense. Just when you think you've seen and heard it all....

This is easily seen for what it is. Take a guy and for a year, have him do nothing but kata for 2 hours per session, three sessions per week. Take another guy, same age, height, weight, and have him involved in alive sparring and drilling for the same duration, times, etc.

At the end of that year, have them fight ten times. The guy with sparring experience wins 9 of them (if not ALL of them...but I've giving kata guys a small benefit of a doubt). I really don't even think it would be CLOSE. Just my opinion.

I'd bet this would be pretty easily demonstrated if one was so willing.


-John

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#372790 - 12/04/07 06:41 PM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: JKogas]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Well ,I guess it's like this for me. I'm a kata guy and I like doing kata regardless of what anyone else thinks or how it helps my fighting ability, or not.
In my opinion when put into practice right kata helps my self defense ability. Kata done alone and not put into practice will only make you better at kata.

John,
the way you put it is exactly right. Only doing kata does not help your fighting ability in my opinion, that just doesn't make sense.
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#372791 - 12/04/07 07:00 PM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: JKogas]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

This is nonsense. Just when you think you've seen and heard it all....

This is easily seen for what it is. Take a guy and for a year, have him do nothing but kata for 2 hours per session, three sessions per week. Take another guy, same age, height, weight, and have him involved in alive sparring and drilling for the same duration, times, etc.

At the end of that year, have them fight ten times. The guy with sparring experience wins 9 of them (if not ALL of them...but I've giving kata guys a small benefit of a doubt). I really don't even think it would be CLOSE. Just my opinion.

I'd bet this would be pretty easily demonstrated if one was so willing.


-John



Hi John.
I can see your valid points and the scenario you described I agree. But kata practice, application practice by two man drilling and in some cases live drilling (up to a point)
are from my studies part of the kata training. In karate.

Just in case you think some kata types are all pure kata I also take part in jujitsu/judo based grappling. Would like to do wrestling but we dont have it here in enough areas. Yet.
Still more or less a begginer but still train.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/04/07 07:18 PM)

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#372792 - 12/04/07 07:03 PM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: BrianS]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
Can I just point out that 24 fighting Chickens is aimed at Shotokan practitioners and that the article in question is specifically discussing the performance of kata assisting/not assisting with JKA tournament sparring.

It is not an article about bunkai study. In fact after so many years of these kinds of debates it seems an incredibly redundant point to make now.
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It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#372793 - 12/04/07 07:17 PM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Can I just point out that 24 fighting Chickens is aimed at Shotokan practitioners and that the article in question is specifically discussing the performance of kata assisting/not assisting with JKA tournament sparring.

It is not an article about bunkai study. In fact after so many years of these kinds of debates it seems an incredibly redundant point to make now.




I am not sure it was that clear. Style orientated certainly. Or maybe I miss read it the second time.

Jude

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