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#372530 - 12/04/07 11:11 PM Re: Why do YOU study kata? [Re: butterfly]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
agreed. I assume you experiment with things? try variations or play on themes? maybe consiously, maybe adhoc....but within the bounds of reason based on experience and ability, you try stuff. deep down that is using your mind's eye of imagination. The thing that unlocks that is developing the ability to imagine something working, then adjusting it a bit based on the realities of a resisting partner. if you like it, you keep it...if you don't or it turns out to be too far fetched, you toss it.

That process - imagining, trying, weighing is what builds new connections. not new things to memorize, but actually learning how to be adaptable. eg: 'playing'.


it's my subjective opinion that kata assists and guides that process.

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#372531 - 12/04/07 11:25 PM Re: Why do YOU study kata? [Re: kakushiite]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
kakushiite,

Good post and points to ponder. My instructor felt that there were too many kata even in our style,Goju, which only has twelve.
I learned the taikyoku series, sanchin, seiunchin, sanseru, and then tensho in a period of about 6years. Even to this day I don't know any other kata,but I feel the kata I do know I can do well.
I think my instructor is right in his logic as well.

_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#372532 - 12/04/07 11:27 PM Re: Why do YOU study kata? [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

agreed. I assume you experiment with things? try variations or play on themes? maybe consiously, maybe adhoc....but within the bounds of reason based on experience and ability, you try stuff. deep down that is using your mind's eye of imagination. The thing that unlocks that is developing the ability to imagine something working, then adjusting it a bit based on the realities of a resisting partner. if you like it, you keep it...if you don't or it turns out to be too far fetched, you toss it.

That process - imagining, trying, weighing is what builds new connections. not new things to memorize, but actually learning how to be adaptable. eg: 'playing'.


it's my subjective opinion that kata assists and guides that process.





Couldn't agree more. It's not the beginning and the end of learning, only a process of it.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#372533 - 12/05/07 12:32 AM Re: Why do YOU study kata? [Re: BrianS]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
For you Brian and for you Ed, this of course may certainly be the case. But if the same thing can be done without the kata, then the question becomes how important to the process is the kata?

If it helps, and for some, this may be a fine way of learning. For others, the appreciation factor just isn't there and thus you find yourself back in 8th grade with one hand supporting your involuntarily nodding head as the most boring teacher in the world drones on causing non-genetic narcolepsy in all who hear his lecture.

Kata may be away of aiding some, just not all. But for those who savor such things, go for it!

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#372534 - 12/05/07 03:59 AM Re: Why do YOU study kata? [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



Thanks for the contributions, there are some very interesting views.

Jude,
If I'm understanding you correctly were you describing smashing someone's fingers with your forearm??? I could not visualise the technique very well, but it certainly does sound fairly unique, although what I have pictured in my head would not work very well as the person getting their fingers smashed could hit with his non grabbed hand. I can't see it working.




OK
I will try to explain it better.
This might be considered the demonstrating version of a technique taken from kata.

Face another person. Perhaps let them know what you intend doing first.
Both extend your arms in front waist level.
Palms facing down
Bend your left arm at the left elbow inwards
Grab the other persons left wrist with the left hand. Palm still facing down.
Bring the right fore arm up into the other persons fingers.

Doesnt work if they make a fist. But then there are other techniques if they do.


There are prior techniques before and after the said technique. I think I did state that. It could be a stand alone technique but as correctly pointed out there is danger from the other hand or the head etc Although the technique is isolated in my description there are other technique before and after.

I think it is unique and would work given the correct application(s).

Quote:



But if you find unique techniques in your karate kata then that is certainly a great reason to continue studying them.

For myself I tend to see unique or uniquely approached strategies as opposed to techniques.





From my studies and understanding the strategies will come later.
I think each individual technique also has to be studied.
Intensly. With variations. More than likely why kata study was said to have took so long in days gone by.

So if you say the technique seems to be unique then that more or less might prove that hidden techniques are in some kata.

I personaly think there is. Hundreds of them.

Butterfly. Hi.
Quote:


Kata may be away of aiding some, just not all. But for those who savor such things, go for it!





While I understand and in part agree with your thoughts.

Some where in my tired brain cells I remember seeing a video
on you tube of some one who does your style teaching a set of moves that he had put in to a pre-arranged "set"

I dont suppose this could be seen as drawing a sort of parrallel with kata? minus the hidden parts? To remember the moves?

Jude

Still a student.


Edited by jude33 (12/05/07 04:26 AM)

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#372535 - 12/05/07 09:26 AM Re: Why do YOU study kata? [Re: butterfly]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

If it helps, and for some, this may be a fine way of learning. For others, the appreciation factor just isn't there ...



hence the word choice of subjective opinion.

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#372536 - 12/05/07 10:15 AM Re: Why do YOU study kata? [Re: jude33]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

Some where in my tired brain cells I remember seeing a video
on you tube of some one who does your style teaching a set of moves that he had put in to a pre-arranged "set"




Ashihara's dirty little secret closet kata
_________________________
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#372537 - 12/05/07 11:06 AM Re: Why do YOU study kata? [Re: harlan]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Harlan:

I do not wish to digress, but if your second sentiment is true... then why not merely punch/kick trees and be done with it? Even the necessity for repetition must be given intelligent context... yes?

Jeff

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#372538 - 12/05/07 11:25 AM Re: Why do YOU study kata? [Re: Ronin1966]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I was unaware that kicking and punching trees was an intelligent activity.

Quote:

Hello Harlan:

I do not wish to digress, but if your second sentiment is true... then why not merely punch/kick trees and be done with it? Even the necessity for repetition must be given intelligent context... yes?

Jeff




I think I said: "..just doing the kata trains and strengthens the body in preparation..." Just because others may say there are faster and more efficient ways to do something...doesn't mean that that is the right way for everyone. Personally, as a older student, I have to balance strengthening, re-learning how to 'move', centering, etc. around injuries.

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#372539 - 12/05/07 11:37 AM Re: Why do YOU study kata? [Re: oldman]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:

Some where in my tired brain cells I remember seeing a video
on you tube of some one who does your style teaching a set of moves that he had put in to a pre-arranged "set"




Ashihara's dirty little secret closet kata




Ashihara? Kata? Nage no kata sono ichi?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bkk9-2yIHBM&feature=related

It states kata. He is doing it solo.?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq1ckLOUFOo

Two man drills? Using the solo kata?

Ashihara?

Can the first one be termed a kata?


Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/05/07 12:03 PM)

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