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#372500 - 12/01/07 05:01 PM Why do YOU study kata?
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
I was just curious as to what it is that keeps the various forum members practicing and studying kata, particularly those interested in Bunkai and Old School/Fighting Karate?

Why take time to practice and study kata when the skills revealed by them are more quickly attainable through cross training?
OR
Is there something unique to Karate hidden within its kata (and do you know of any evidence of this)?

I'm not seeking any particular answer, just enjoying it is just as cool as hidden ancient knowledge.

For myself I have an interest in stylistic and systematic approaches to combat, which is what I see kata as being. I've gained alot of strategic combat knowledge from the study and a broader understanding of MA's, especially how to use techniques and movements I'm presented with.

How about you?
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#372501 - 12/01/07 06:25 PM Re: Why do YOU study kata? [Re: Shonuff]
harleyt26 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 75
Loc: Summerfield,Florida U.S.A.
I think of kata as a storage system for a wider array of application variations than I could possibly remember.The problem I struggle with is,how large should my storage system be?Cross training can be interpreted more than one way.You can cross train between types of fighting arts such as stand up or ground fighting.Or different types of stand up such as karate or boxing.Different ground fighting types like jujitsu,shootfighting or some of the european or western wrestling styles.I prefer to cross train in the traditional/classical okinawn styles that are for the most part kata based.I have found that kata contain the appropriate blend of information necessary to defend myself in any situation I can think of.Of course I wasted many years before I found the instructors that could teach what was in kata all along.I had almost resingned myself to the belief that kata were only a way to compete for trophys.Anyone that thinks kata are only good for excercise and competition are with the wrong instructor.
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#372502 - 12/01/07 08:41 PM Re: Why do YOU study kata? [Re: Shonuff]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
1. Teacher says so.

2. Even without being exposed to bunkai, just doing the kata trains and strengthens the body in preparation for learning it.

Quote:

I was just curious as to what it is that keeps the various forum members practicing and studying kata, particularly those interested in Bunkai and Old School/Fighting Karate?



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#372503 - 12/01/07 10:41 PM Re: Why do YOU study kata? [Re: harlan]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I studied for the same reason posted above, I was with a small group who got caught up that Bruce Lee movement, forms are useless, become formless or whatever. They now have stopped training or can no longer compete and are lost. I on the other hand am still explorering and training some of the students of the lost. Some are trying to train merdian training without the Kata its like traveling across country without a map, they say. Anyway like any higher education it requires some study. I continue to find and have common grounds in my cross training because I've trained similar techniques in my original kata.

But before knowing an d finding all this it was because, as harlan stated bc, Sensei said so. And I'm glad he did.
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#372504 - 12/02/07 04:01 AM Re: Why do YOU study kata? [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I was just curious as to what it is that keeps the various forum members practicing and studying kata, particularly those interested in Bunkai and Old School/Fighting Karate?

Why take time to practice and study kata when the skills revealed by them are more quickly attainable through cross training?
OR
Is there something unique to Karate hidden within its kata (and do you know of any evidence of this)?






Judes limited studies.
I dont think cross training will give most of the techniques that are in kata. Some maybe but certainly not all.

Yep I think most techniques in certain kata are hidden. Hidden for a good reason It is that hidden that (from my limited studies) a few kata re-engineering types miss a lot. I dont think kata study just requires the physical study of a specific kata or a set of kata.
It requires reading a lot of peoples input. This forum is about the best I have come across for that reason. Particuler the arguments between Ed and Medulant or Ed and some one else about other things on this forum, then researching the valid points gained further.

Jude

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#372505 - 12/02/07 09:38 AM Re: Why do YOU study kata? [Re: jude33]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Harleyt26
Kata as a memory aid? Cool, but why not video each application and discard the kata. Also does keeping and continuing to practice kata not detract from time to train and absorb the applications or the generic skills of fighting?

Harlan
1. This is surely the best reason I ever had in the begining. But once we become responsible for our own development is there a need to continue?
2. Fun exercise sure, but good exercise? There are better ways to strengthen the body and kihon practice is more than enough to develop muscle memory for the techniques we use.

Neko
So is it the mental stimulation that keeps you using kata? Are you saying that the extra dimension created by their mysteries is part of your long term enjoyment of MA?

Jude
What techniques or skills do you see in Karate kata that you don't find in other arts?
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#372506 - 12/02/07 01:01 PM Re: Why do YOU study kata? [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Jude
What techniques or skills do you see in Karate kata that you don't find in other arts?





Quite a few.

But I havent got anywhere near the amount of techniques available.

If using things like trees as a physical training aids( no dog jokes please) puts a person off or they havent got or working towards that kind of physical conditioning then there isnt much point in me explaining the techniques that I know of.


Jude



Edited by jude33 (12/02/07 01:05 PM)

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#372507 - 12/02/07 01:49 PM Re: Why do YOU study kata? [Re: jude33]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
The reason why I study kata...

I see application possibilities in it, which I can train on my own (although there is no substitute for partner training).

Next to that, it's good for muscle memory, other than most kihon, where most of the time most people train kihon in line. They are diverse as a training aid. The extra dimension of embusen shouldn't be neglected.

And last, I find them a good way to get an exhausting work-out.
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#372508 - 12/03/07 06:40 AM Re: Why do YOU study kata? [Re: jude33]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Jude

As you are posting to a diverse forum of people, all of whom are at different levels and do different things then there may well be a point as you never know who is reading.

That is other than the main point of any forum i.e. to share ideas and information.

I've yet to encounter a technique where hitting trees was necessary training to make use of it. Except in movies.
That indicates to me a completely different line of thinking than I've ever encountered before regarding kata application and would certainly be something one could not get from another art.

I'm fascinated to hear what some of these hidden kata techniques are?
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#372509 - 12/03/07 08:26 AM Re: Why do YOU study kata? [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Jude

As you are posting to a diverse forum of people, all of whom are at different levels and do different things then there may well be a point as you never know who is reading.

That is other than the main point of any forum i.e. to share ideas and information.

I've yet to encounter a technique where hitting trees was necessary training to make use of it. Except in movies.
That indicates to me a completely different line of thinking than I've ever encountered before regarding kata application and would certainly be something one could not get from another art.

I'm fascinated to hear what some of these hidden kata techniques are?




I have no interest in what people do in the movies. A person needs to go back to their roots.



Sorry couldnt resist that one. That was the fun part.

Judes students thoughts.
Just a point in case this gets silly. Using a tree means reaching the body conditioning where some one could use something with the restistance that would be equavilant of a tree. It doesnt mean we westerners should run out and get locked up by using trees. Wouldnt be politicaly correct.
Body conditioning is only part of the equation.

As regards the limited amount of hidden techniques that I know of in certain kata. On the jujitsu thread there is an arm bar question.
I think cesar mentioned trapping in kata. Didnt go in to much detail
I have invited him to this section to discuss the arm bar he is thinking of.?
Hope you dont mind.
I think if part of the discussion included ,Fulcrum point, method of entry.etc
And how a person gets to where they can apply a standing arm bar? All found in certain kata.

That might be a good starting point.
Some hidden applications found in kata might be related to this. And these might be revealed during the discussion.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/03/07 08:47 AM)

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