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#372477 - 12/01/07 12:33 PM Straight arm lcoks on taller/stronger people
karateGrappler Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/25/07
Posts: 6
Hi,

This Saturday in Karate class we were practicing a straight armlock where the forearm creates a fulcrum point under the opponet elbow joint.

I could apply this armlock on my partner, but when my partner tried it on me it did not work. We used the principles of this lock with the pull of the arm and the push of the elbow with the forearm but nothing happened.

I am also taller and stronger and my partner. Maybe we were missing something for it to work on me.

If so then how can such a lock work on someone much bigger and stronger?

Thanks.

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#372478 - 12/01/07 12:37 PM Re: Straight arm locks on taller/stronger people [Re: karateGrappler]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Standing arm locks are very difficult to do, because the opponent can simply walk out of them. The key is to get the opponent's head below the level of their waist/hips. This will make it more difficult for them to get away, and also allows you to put more weight on their arm. Not easy to do, though.
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#372479 - 12/01/07 03:53 PM Re: Straight arm locks on taller/stronger people [Re: MattJ]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
I was taught that the trick is to have their elbow pointing towards the ground and apply force downwards on their wrist, but really you should ask your instructor as to what you're doing wrong. There are several variations on the straight arm lock so it's very hard to answer this question over the internet. As Matt said, standing arm locks are very difficult to apply, you need to be willing to transition from one lock to another if your opponent struggles out of the lock you first intended; or at least that's how I was taught. Also, Matt, it's actually technically impossible to walk out of a straight armlock, at least the way I was taught, no more than you can walk out of an arm drag, because you encircle one of their arms entirely. Although you can pull away and counter it before you are caught in the lock, after you're caught the only way to escape without dislocating your arm is to roll out of it. I've worked the straight arm-lock on people up to a foot taller than me.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (12/01/07 03:58 PM)
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#372480 - 12/02/07 09:57 AM Re: Straight arm locks on taller/stronger people [Re: Leo_E_49]
Gesar Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 77
Loc: England, UK
I agree with Leo_E_49 it is impossible to walk out of a straight armlock if it is applied correctly.

In the Ju Jutsu that I do we have 3 types of straight armlock:

Ude Higishi (Straight arm lock from outside looks a bit like an Aikido Ikkyo, but differs in a number of respects)

Uchi Hiji Ude dori (Straight arm lock from inside, used for trapping in kata)

Soto Hiji Ude Dori which means something like Outside elbow pin applied to arm. I think this is the one that you guys may mean.

The Soto Hiji Ude Dori technique relies on having your arm underneath their elbow in the right place in the first place.

Common errors:
1. Not putting arm in the correct place when creating a bar on Uke's elbow.

2. Not stand in the right place to apply it.

Hand positions for lock
If it is the lock that I am thinking of, you should also grip your own wrist with the arm that creates the bar beneath the elbow, whilst your other hand (the one on which you are gripping your own wrist) grips their wrist and pushes down thus creating the fulcrum effect.

Dynamics of lock
The dynamics of the technique are that the arm under their elbow creates an upward force and the hand on their wrist creates a downward force and this is strengthened by you gripping your own wrist.

If the lock is applied correctly Uke should easily be able to be raised up on their toes and should not be able to reach you with the other hand either.

Regards

Chris Norman

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#372481 - 12/02/07 10:49 AM Re: Straight arm lcoks on taller/stronger people [Re: karateGrappler]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Yes, as Matt said, this is a pretty difficult technique to pull off.

I think the version you're doing actually requires a taller, or at least same size uke to make work.

Get your friend to put his hand on your elbow. His other hand can be on your wrist, close to your hand. He should be able to put the lock on by straightening his arm that holds your elbow. After it's straight, he should relax his shoulder and sink his arm down even more, right into your elbow. While he's doing this, the hand that controls your wrist should remain in place, this should create a stronger lock.

Be careful, this is one of those techniques that can hurt the elbow pretty bad.


--Chris
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#372482 - 12/02/07 02:05 PM Re: Straight arm lcoks on taller/stronger people [Re: Ames]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
The object of all straight arm locks is to apply a few pounds of pressure at the elbow joint, and I can't see why this is such a problem. If the arm is pointed downward, the force has to be parallel to the floor... if it's horizontal, the force has to be "up"... in any case, it's always perpendicular to the elbow through the joint.

We do projection throws in Aikido all the time from "locked elbow throws", and once you have the correct position, it's just as easy to hold somebody in a "lock" as to throw them. If it's done right, they're dancing around on their toes anyway.

What this points out to me, is that people don't understand "working at their own level". It doesn't matter if somebody is tall, short, or sky-blue pink, proper distancing, kuzushi, and mechanical follow through will make any technique work on anybody if its valid to start with.

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#372483 - 12/03/07 07:31 AM Re: Straight arm lcoks on taller/stronger people [Re: wristtwister]
karateGrappler Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/25/07
Posts: 6
Hi all,

Thank you for the responses. The advice is helpful indeed. I will put it into practice at the next training session.

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#372484 - 12/03/07 08:30 AM Re: Straight arm locks on taller/stronger people [Re: Gesar]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Hi Cesar.
Regards the arm lock/ trapping found in kata?


In the

Why do YOU study kata
section of forms and applications there is a discussion on techniques found in kata.
Would you like to take part?

Thanks

Jude

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#372485 - 03/05/08 10:17 AM Re: Straight arm lcoks on taller/stronger people [Re: karateGrappler]
janxspirit Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 132
Quote:

Hi,

This Saturday in Karate class we were practicing a straight armlock where the forearm creates a fulcrum point under the opponet elbow joint.

I could apply this armlock on my partner, but when my partner tried it on me it did not work. We used the principles of this lock with the pull of the arm and the push of the elbow with the forearm but nothing happened.

I am also taller and stronger and my partner. Maybe we were missing something for it to work on me.

If so then how can such a lock work on someone much bigger and stronger?

Thanks.




Standing arm locks rarely work against a larger opponent.

Truth is: standing arm locks don't even often work against a SMALLER opponent who is aggressive and determined.

That's why in BJJ and Judo nearly all of the arm locks are performed on the ground. Not ALL of them, but in Judo the standing arm locks are forbidden now. Why?

Because they really only work against a resisting opponent when performed as an arm WRENCH and Judoka were getting hurt often in competition as a result.

I'd not work a lot on stnding arm locks as control maneuvers. Though some of them are fine when used to wrencht the joint.
_________________________
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#372486 - 03/07/08 12:35 PM Re: Straight arm lcoks on taller/stronger people [Re: janxspirit]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
Standing arm locks forbidden in Judo? I just asked one of my instructors about this very technique last week and he said it was perfectly legal.
If this arm lock is done right, a person should not be able to just "walk right out of it" on the other hand we practiced this lock quite a bit in JKD out of the clinch and on some people it will work and on some it will not due to body type, strength, etc. The key is to move from one technique to another when one fails, flow to the next.

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