TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns

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#372436 - 01/04/08 11:03 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Professional Poster Registered: 07/15/06 Posts: 2053	Quote: This would be more my question (it maybe unknowable) which changes were for the betterment of Tae Kwon Do's fighting skills and which for political reasons? Even if they were done for political reasons do they now benefit your trainning? I for one, seperate patterns from fighting. Patterns IMHO help you with fundamentals, that often can not cross over into realistic combat. Fighting must be as realistic as possible given the constraints required by the nature of what we do. To me, I think the SW up/down to relax/up/down was more politically motivated. Relax?U?D was always there. It was never emphasized or eben mentioned. Now it seems it is over exagerrated. JMHO
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#372437 - 01/04/08 11:06 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Professional Poster Registered: 07/15/06 Posts: 2053	Quote: .......it just does not sound logical that if you take away most of the "military experts & talented MAists" whom you had used to bounce your ideas off and get feedback from for over twenty years you might make changes that are no longer benefical. Could you ask GM CK Choi if they ever consulted scientists or experts in the medical &/or sports fields? Thanks.......
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#372438 - 01/04/08 11:15 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Professional Poster Registered: 07/15/06 Posts: 2053	Quote: ITFunity, General Choi publically said in the mid 1980s ('85 I think) that his work on the patterns were complete.. so therefore any big changes after that IMO are suspect (as political motivated). This holds more weight if some of the things discussed were as some believe always there, but not implimented! Thats like building a car and waiting for the turbo booster part to arrive and fit but still saying it was complete.. you wouldnt even say that until it actually was!!Stuart Sir, I for one do not think that there were many changes to the patterns. Now they were 1st started to be developed in 1954(?) (40s & 50s). Of course the 1st 4, Hwarang, ChungMu, UlJi & GaeBaek came 1st. As far as documenting them, there is little change from 1972 to 2002. Some changes occurred in written form from 1965 to 1972. A noted pioneer, GM CK Choi uses 1972 as when TKD was pretty much finalized. My analysis of all the textbooks & I have every one, with every edition except 1 of edition of the 15 volumes & 1 condensed version of same. I can report the changes are minimal. Often related to motions, not new movements. What has changed is how some fundamental movements are performed. This of course carries over to the patterns. IMHO the emphasis from up/down to relax/up/down had political overtomes to it, due to the loss of Master Park Jung Tae. he was for years, the Man!
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#372439 - 01/04/08 11:20 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: Supremor]
ITFunity Professional Poster Registered: 07/15/06 Posts: 2053	Quote: Quote: General Choi publically said in the mid 1980s ('85 I think) that his work on the patterns were complete.. I don't know about big changes, but I am getting increasingly anxious every time there is an International Instructor's Course, and some little detail of the patterns gets changed. I heard just a couple of months ago that I punch incorrectly when performing a side kick, and that I perform the low-stance palm downward block wrong. I can understand standardization, but sometimes it gets a bit annoying having to retrain movements because of some little decision within the ITF. Do you think it is a change or maybe you may have been shown it wrong or no one picked up on it? This is something that must be scrutinized if standardization is to be realized. JMHO
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#372440 - 01/04/08 11:30 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
Supremor Professional Poster Registered: 07/22/04 Posts: 2510 Loc: UK	Quote: Do you think it is a change or maybe you may have been shown it wrong or no one picked up on it? This is something that must be scrutinized if standardization is to be realized. JMHO No, from what I understand it is disagreements between different countries. For instance, in the UK GM Ree Ki Ha showed sidekicks in the colour belt patterns(except Hwa-rang) to be performed with a punch that was chambered at the hip. However, in some other countries, the punch was chambered across the chest and swings across into the same finishing position. There was a debate at the last big IIC and they decided that the latter would become the official version. The change with the palm downward block is a strange one, and I have no idea why it has changed, because if you ask me, the new way of performing it has less utility.
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#372441 - 01/04/08 11:38 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: Supremor]
ITFunity Professional Poster Registered: 07/15/06 Posts: 2053	Quote: No, from what I understand it is disagreements between different countries. For instance, in the UK GM Ree Ki Ha showed sidekicks in the colour belt patterns(except Hwa-rang) to be performed with a punch that was chambered at the hip. However, in some other countries, the punch was chambered across the chest and swings across into the same finishing position. There was a debate at the last big IIC and they decided that the latter would become the official version. Yes it is a general requirement that for all side kicks in a pattern, a high punch is to be executed at the same time, unless other specific instructions exists, as in the case of HwaRang which is to pull the hands in the opposite direction. In my judgement, GM Rhee is correct. Which ITF taught the course? This is a throwback to the way the late Master Park Jung Tae did it. I think many just copied him, including the NKs for whom he had been their 1st/primary teacher. They of course became to be viewed by some as the standard bearer. However, this is not a punch. It is more like a side fist, or even an ineffective cross cut using the knuckles. I think ITF-V has been teaching more of the swing.
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#372442 - 01/04/08 11:40 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
Supremor Professional Poster Registered: 07/22/04 Posts: 2510 Loc: UK	Quote: However, this is not a punch. It is more like a side fist, or even an ineffective cross cut using the knuckles. I think ITF-V has been teaching more of the swing. That's exactly my problem with it. But hey ho, if that's how they want it
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#372443 - 01/04/08 11:41 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: Supremor]
ITFunity Professional Poster Registered: 07/15/06 Posts: 2053	Quote: The change with the palm downward block is a strange one, and I have no idea why it has changed, because if you ask me, the new way of performing it has less utility. Please explain? And where you a good student in the IIC, who asked the magic question, WHY? Also, be careful, as you probably are aware, these may be more interpetations of what the founder meant or wanted. We no longer have a final arbitrater, so they are probably going to become more commonplace.
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#372444 - 01/04/08 11:50 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
Supremor Professional Poster Registered: 07/22/04 Posts: 2510 Loc: UK	Well I didn't actually attend the IIC, but the changes are passed down through the organisation and my instructor hears about them from his instructor(the head of the org). Quote: Please explain? Okay, although it is a very minor and difficult to explain change: In Joong-Gun and Kwang-Gae, there are palm downward blocks, where the blocking hand comes down and the reaction hand comes out in front. They are performed in low stance and in slow motion. The difference is with the wrist. I was taught to have the wrist bent so that the hand is parallel with the ground. It has now changed to having the wrist straight. My problem with this, is that the most basic application I was taught for the block is that it is against a front kick from an angle, however with wrist straight it doesn't feel as effective in that role. Of course, it's a very small change and doesn't matter too much, and I'm sure other instructors teach quite different applications.
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#372445 - 01/04/08 11:54 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: Supremor]
ITFunity Professional Poster Registered: 07/15/06 Posts: 2053	Which ITF hosted the course?
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