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#372336 - 12/01/07 11:03 AM TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns
TKD-Skippi Offline
Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 268
Loc: Scotland, Selkirk
I found a load of these videos on youtube. I've watched all the patterns I'm familiar with and i think the standard is pretty good. I thought it would be useful to beginners if i put a little information on the pattern its self. please Mention good points and bad points. thanks

Chon-Ji has 19 movements. It means heaven and earth and is interpreted as the creation of the universe. This is the first Tul learned by he beginner. It consists of two parts one which represents the heavens and the other represents the earth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My-p9aHrJA8

Dan-Gun has 21 movements. It is named after the holy Dan Gun, the legendary founder of Korea in the year 2333 B.C

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOFcjTujPs8&feature=related

Do-San has 24 movements. Do san is a pseudonym of the patriot Ahn chang-Ho (1876-1938). The 24 movements represent his life which he devoted to furthering education in Korea and promoting the Korean independence movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjiU7FupimY&feature=related

Won-Hyo Tul has 28 movements. Won hyo was the noted monk who introduced Buddhism to the Silla Dynasty int he year 686 A.d

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZzRy1hSF70&feature=related

Yul-Gok Tul had 28 movements. Yul-Gok is the pseudonym of a great philosopher and scholar Yi I (1536-1584) Nicknamed the 'Confucius of Korea'. The 38 movements of the pattern refer to his birthplace on 38 degrees latitude and the diagram of the pattern represents the scholar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7AJKLbqF1s&feature=related


Edited by Supremor (12/01/07 04:52 PM)
_________________________
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#372337 - 12/02/07 07:43 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: TKD-Skippi]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>I found a load of these videos on youtube. I've watched all the patterns I'm familiar with and i think the standard is pretty good. <<

Yep, Pretty good:) These people are all world competition medalists hand picked by Gneral Choi for the official CD ROM of his patterns. Perhaps the performance is not always perfect, but 99% of us could only hope to perform to that standard.

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#372338 - 12/02/07 12:18 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: EarlWeiss]
TKD-Skippi Offline
Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 268
Loc: Scotland, Selkirk
wow i didn't know that. :-) thats prety cool...they made a cd rom? where can one bye it?

Joon-Gun Tul

Joon-Gun Tul has 32 movements. Joon-Gun Tul is named after the patriot Ahn Jong-Gun who assassinated Hiro Bumi Ito, the first Japaneses governor-general of korea, Known as the man who played the leading part in the Korea-japan merger. There are 32 movements in the pattern to represent Mr Ahn's age when he was executed at Lui-shung in 1910

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DDBlRO3rbE
_________________________
Do not be overcome by evil , but overcome evil with good -Romans 13:21

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#372339 - 12/02/07 04:45 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: TKD-Skippi]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>wow i didn't know that. :-) thats prety cool...they made a cd rom? where can one bye it?<<

http://www.comdo.com/home.html

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#372340 - 12/05/07 10:11 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: TKD-Skippi]
GriffyGriff Offline
Good Egg,
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Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Earth
Quote:

Won-Hyo Tul has 28 movements. Won hyo was the noted monk who introduced Buddhism to the Silla Dynasty int he year 686 A.d




I thought Won Hyo (Pen Name: Dawn)
Was named after the Buddhist Monk Sol Sedang (Nickname: ”Sedduk”) Born Kyongsang Do Province (Same province as Yi Hwang (Toi Gye Tul)).

Born in 617AD, died in 686AD
Buddhist, Philosopher, Poet.
Unified sectarian Zen Buddhism.
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#372341 - 12/07/07 09:20 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: GriffyGriff]
TKD-Skippi Offline
Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 268
Loc: Scotland, Selkirk
I don't know Griff. I'll have a look around. The info i posted seems to be a 'popular' version. But i could be wrong. i will look into it. thanks for the tip.
_________________________
Do not be overcome by evil , but overcome evil with good -Romans 13:21

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#372342 - 12/07/07 12:08 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: TKD-Skippi]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Yes the cd or dvd from comdo is pretty good.

All patterns can be viewed at various angles and seperate demo's of any newly introducted movements.

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#372343 - 12/11/07 01:28 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: flynch]
greywolf Offline
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Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 2
Loc: Alberta, Canada
TKD-Skippi'

The DVD's from Comdo were endorsed and directed by Gen. Choi himself in Banff, Alberta, Canada. He selected senior instructors from around the world to demonstrate and preform each pattern (tul) while ensuring that they were preformed accurately. The General's purpose was to have the patterns recorded on a DVD so that all ITF TKD style instuctors worldwide could practice, teach and preform the patterns in a standardized manner. This DVD set is by far the best reference that any serious ITF style taekwon-Do practictioner could have for ensuring they preform the tuls the way they were meant to be preformed.


http://www.comdo.com/home.html

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#372344 - 12/11/07 04:03 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: greywolf]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I'm going to assume that the all seeing general "founder" of Taekwon-Do also took the liberty to have his students interpret the patterns functionality as well right? ^^

To record the patterns without the applications would be a disservice. Leaving each pattern open to interpretation and scrutiny which would only add to the chaos in which the ITF is trying to eradicate by standardizing its global curriculum.

Furthermore if this set is "The set to have for any serious TKD practitioner" it would go without saying that it would be a complete package of the Generals and his top instructors work regarding both forms and content rather than just aesthetic purposes.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#372345 - 12/11/07 04:21 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: TKD-Skippi]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
I'm curious. I always learned to kihap at the end of a pattern but later I saw some ITF guys who always called out the name of the pattern at the end. The chap in these vids doesn't, he kihaps. Is this something to do with grade or fashion?
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#372346 - 12/11/07 04:50 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: trevek]
GriffyGriff Offline
Good Egg,
Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Earth
Quote:

I'm curious. I always learned to kihap at the end of a pattern but later I saw some ITF guys who always called out the name of the pattern at the end. The chap in these vids doesn't, he kihaps. Is this something to do with grade or fashion?




I too Kihap at the end of the Tuls.

But I also kihap after each Power-Technique
(It was taught that each Power-Technique was to be performed with full Focus and full force). I have heard other ITF styles "Hissing" like snakes after each move though. Which is "interesting"
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#372347 - 12/11/07 06:02 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: GriffyGriff]
Supremor Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
We call the name of the pattern at the end. Must be a fashion thing I guess. We don't kihap on power techniques either, just exhale on them all.

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#372348 - 12/11/07 06:14 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: Supremor]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
So we learned when and how to kihap?

Sounds like its a must see video. Is this better than Master Hee Il Cho books and videos?
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#372349 - 12/11/07 07:41 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: TeK9]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
We don't kihap.

We don't hiss as that is a breath through the mouth.

We are taught to breath out throught the nose upon completion of a technique

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#372350 - 12/11/07 09:41 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: flynch]
GriffyGriff Offline
Good Egg,
Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Earth
Quote:

We are taught to breath out throught the nose upon completion of a technique




That sounds strange.

Exhaling from the nose is a slower process of air evacuation than out of the mouth, also you are in danger of getting covered in bogies.
_________________________
I am NOT homophobic... I am NOT afraid of my own house!

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#372351 - 12/12/07 03:13 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

To record the patterns without the applications would be a disservice. Leaving each pattern open to interpretation and scrutiny which would only add to the chaos in which the ITF is trying to eradicate by standardizing its global curriculum.




It is really just about impossible to record Tuls with the applications, as there are numerous applications available, depending on the attack. The founder kept it simple. His blocks & defensive movements were desinged more for protecting an area, rather than against a type of attack. Basically, he would often say, if it makes sense, then good application. In other words, he laid out 3,200+ fundamental movements for one to add to their arenal & use as the situation at hand called for.

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#372352 - 12/12/07 03:17 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: trevek]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I'm curious. I always learned to kihap at the end of a pattern but later I saw some ITF guys who always called out the name of the pattern at the end.




The ITF requires one to finish the last kove, then state the name of the Tul. Each one of the movements (970, with KoDang 1009) in the patterns, are to be performed with realism & maximum power. The idea of saving a KiHap to the end for the killer blow goes against a goal of ITF TKD. We are also required to exhale briefly, from the lower abdomen, with each movement, with the exception of a connecting motion. The exhale does not need or requre a hiss or loud noise, but rather, to come from deep, not the mouth.

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#372353 - 12/12/07 04:14 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
Quote:

The idea of saving a KiHap to the end for the killer blow goes against a goal of ITF TKD.




Then why does the chap in these vids kihap?

On the hissing thing... I once trained in a top Polish ITF club and was kihapping like crazy, having been training on and off with WTF clubs for a while. The trainer took me aside and told me "It is Tssss"
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#372354 - 12/12/07 09:54 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: trevek]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Trevek I'd have to disagree, there are actualy plenty of kata instructionals out there now that demonstrate kata applications. I myslef happen to own a Shorin Ryu 10 volume DVD collection where the Master Instructor goes over the kata then gives 5 different scenario responses per kata. And there are many others.

However, I've never seen any for TKD, mainly just Okinawan karate and kenpo.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but having 3200 fundamental movements is not keeping things simple. Thats a bit excessive.

I to no longer respond to the type of attacks but the angles from which they come from. This narrows an infinite amount of response and blocks to around just 5 angles. I keep it simple also, I don't need all those blocks, in fact I no longer use any.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#372355 - 12/13/07 05:40 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: TeK9]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
TeK,

that answer isn't for me... I think it is for ITF Unity.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#372356 - 12/13/07 10:19 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1671
Quote:

Quote:

I'm curious. I always learned to kihap at the end of a pattern but later I saw some ITF guys who always called out the name of the pattern at the end.




The ITF requires one to finish the last kove, then state the name of the Tul. Each one of the movements (970, with KoDang 1009) in the patterns, are to be performed with realism & maximum power. The idea of saving a KiHap to the end for the killer blow goes against a goal of ITF TKD. We are also required to exhale briefly, from the lower abdomen, with each movement, with the exception of a connecting motion. The exhale does not need or requre a hiss or loud noise, but rather, to come from deep, not the mouth.




Our school has always used the kihap in the patterns, but again we are not an "Official" ITF school, being members of the AAU we are actually closer to being WTF except for the patterns. With that being said, at the seminar I recently attended with Master Rai of ITF-C, As directed by GM Choi, they have begun to re-introduce kihaps to the patterns. He told us that the General was actually very much in favor of the kihap until practioners started doing their Bruce Lee imitations rather than a real kihap from the belly.

VDJ

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#372357 - 12/13/07 04:03 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: trevek]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>Correct me if I'm wrong, but having 3200 fundamental movements is not keeping things simple. Thats a bit excessive.<<<

Depends on your point of view. There was a good article in the Dec. Black Belt Mag I think. The point of the article is that training in a martial art is about more than doing only what is simple or neccessary.

Doing only what is simple or neccesary may be a very effective self defense strategy. However, this will quickly get mundane and you will lose interest. Now, trying to excel thru exceedingly difficult training and trying to accomplish or perform beyond the ordinary is what makes for a fascinating activity.

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#372358 - 12/13/07 04:05 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: trevek]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>The idea of saving a KiHap to the end for the killer blow goes against a goal of ITF TKD. <<<

UNITY-- Please elaborate.

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#372359 - 12/13/07 04:12 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: trevek]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>I'm going to assume that the all seeing general "founder" of Taekwon-Do also took the liberty to have his students interpret the patterns functionality as well right? ^^<<<

For those who do not take note that the comment is tongue in cheek, to have the work as suggested would take a huge amount of time and material as well as being duplicitous. The 4 CD set already contains the 15 volume encyclopedia with examples of applications for the moves.

>>>To record the patterns without the applications would be a disservice. Leaving each pattern open to interpretation and scrutiny which would only add to the chaos in which the ITF is trying to eradicate by standardizing its global curriculum.<<<

The applications are ":recorded" albeit in a photo rather than a video format.

>>>Furthermore if this set is "The set to have for any serious TKD practitioner" it would go without saying that it would be a complete package of the Generals and his top instructors work regarding both forms and content rather than just aesthetic purposes. <<<

Since the set also contains the text it is much more than esthetics. The videos are not intended to be a complete work. No one claims they are. In fact, far from it since the video only addresses pattern which is but one part of the system.

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#372360 - 12/13/07 04:15 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: EarlWeiss]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>I recently attended with Master Rai of ITF-C, As directed by GM Choi, they have begun to re-introduce kihaps to the patterns.<<<

It seems the Son's group, or the son himself is putting his own stamp on the system.

Ity seesm they have also changed 2 moves in Ju Che http://www.tkd.co.uk/Patterns/Juche.htm

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#372361 - 12/15/07 02:34 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: EarlWeiss]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

>>>The idea of saving a KiHap to the end for the killer blow goes against a goal of ITF TKD. <<<

UNITY-- Please elaborate.




This comes from Mr. Anslow. I think there is a section in his book that deals with this. KiHaps are somewhat in the relam of the meta physical & as such, it is guessed that since it did not have a sound scientific basis, it was eliminated. Now others can correct me if I am wrong, but in some types of Karate, isn't the KiHap added for additional strength or power? In the ITF, we don't wait till the end of a Tul do deliver more power, as maximum power is to be utilized for all the movements. JMHO

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#372362 - 12/16/07 07:45 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
I agree and disagree . We have some "Soft" moves in the Chang Hon system such as Hooking Block, Pressing block etc. where the Kihap for power theory would not be applicable. Perhaps this would make an interesting thread, but IMO the Kihap or yell serves three possible purposes. 1. To generate a startle reflex in the opponent 2. To help tense your Diaphram in order to prepare it against a counter attack, 3. To facilitate in contracting the diaphram in concert with the contraction of other muscles to create the power thru a coordination of the musculature used to generate power. Only #3 is the same used for most other techniques accomplished thru the coordinated exhalation with the exertion.

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#372363 - 12/16/07 10:40 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: EarlWeiss]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
I broke down and purchased the encyclopedia and dvd's last year. From my own opinion, I felt the encyclopedia was well worth the purchase as a reference, It's much easier to transport than 15 volumes of encyclopedia, but the dvd's were not. There are just as many good examples of each of the patterns available on youtube, that it's just not worth spending the money on.

As far as the kihap, my school just uses the kihap at the end, but I know schools that say the pattern name at the beginning and at the end of the pattern. Frankly, it's more likely just for ensuring that the student knows the name of the pattern.

Laura

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#372364 - 12/17/07 01:50 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: EarlWeiss]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I agree and disagree . We have some "Soft" moves in the Chang Hon system such as Hooking Block, Pressing block etc. where the Kihap for power theory would not be applicable. Perhaps this would make an interesting thread, but IMO the Kihap or yell serves three possible purposes. 1. To generate a startle reflex in the opponent 2. To help tense your Diaphram in order to prepare it against a counter attack, 3. To facilitate in contracting the diaphram in concert with the contraction of other muscles to create the power thru a coordination of the musculature used to generate power. Only #3 is the same used for most other techniques accomplished thru the coordinated exhalation with the exertion.




Yes Sir, I do agree. I was leaving out the exceptions like the palm hooking blocks & slow motion etc, as I did not want the discussion to get to esoteric by us ITF types!

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#372365 - 12/17/07 01:53 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: tkd_high_green]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I broke down and purchased the encyclopedia and dvd's last year. From my own opinion, I felt the encyclopedia was well worth the purchase as a reference, It's much easier to transport than 15 volumes of encyclopedia, but the dvd's were not. There are just as many good examples of each of the patterns available on youtube, that it's just not worth spending the money on.
Laura




Side issue here:
I am gathering you purchased the "CONDENSED" version of the 15 volumes? If so, then yes it is easier to carry, but is not IMHO a substitiute for the full 15 volumes.
In addition, the CD Rom version is from the 1st edition of the 15 volumes, dated 1983, which is as you can see, somewhat outdated. JMHO

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#372366 - 12/17/07 01:58 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: tkd_high_green]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

As far as the kihap, my school just uses the kihap at the end, but I know schools that say the pattern name at the beginning and at the end of the pattern. Frankly, it's more likely just for ensuring that the student knows the name of the pattern. Laura




Getting back on target, whomever is leading the class should 1st announce the name of the Tul, followed by the ready command, JunBi. At the end of the Tul, the student states the name of the pattern. In the ITF this is done to advise the student of the pattern to be perfromed & the necessary ready posture that must be assumed. Stating the name at the end pays reverence to the great patriot or historical significance that is being symbolized. ITF students need to know much more than just the name of the Tul. This is one of the things that helps make it an Art & a way of life. JMHO

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#372367 - 12/18/07 10:34 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: TKD-Skippi]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Do-San has 24 movements. Do san is a pseudonym of the patriot Ahn chang-Ho (1876-1938). The 24 movements represent his life which he devoted to furthering education in Korea and promoting the Korean independence movement.



Just for the record.. the dates are incorrect. Ahn Chang-Ho was born on the 9th Nov, 1878, not in 1976! Oh.. and the " 24 movements representing his life " bit was added later too and I dont believe this was originally what the "24" represented!

See: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/downloadables/HaeSul/Taekwondo_Haesul_Preview.pdf



Stuart

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#372368 - 12/19/07 07:21 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
Hhh hee, that would explain the nlook on the General's face (and the ITF students at the seminar) when my association were discussing (re)joining ITF and we were all doing tuls with kihaps, not calling the name.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

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#372369 - 12/21/07 12:56 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Yes the original pattern defintion did not make any reference to the 24 movements, as it was obvioulsy added on later.

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#372370 - 12/21/07 06:19 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Yes the original pattern defintion did not make any reference to the 24 movements, as it was obvioulsy added on later.




I wouldnt say "obviously" as many dont know. And (as you know/read) I belive its an incorrect addition as well!

Stuart
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#372371 - 12/24/07 10:30 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

Yes the original pattern defintion did not make any reference to the 24 movements, as it was obvioulsy added on later.



I wouldnt say "obviously" as many dont know. And (as you know/read) I belive its an incorrect addition as well!
Stuart




Sorry, I didn't mean that it was obvious to all, but rather that when you compare the earlier texts, it is clear that it was added on. You are right, probably many do not realize it was not in the original or earlier pattern definition.
Mr. Anslow, can you kindly expand on why you think it was an incorrect addition?
thanks

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#372372 - 12/24/07 02:17 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Mr. Anslow, can you kindly expand on why you think it was an incorrect addition?
thanks




No problemo.. short version:

The 24 movements are in reference to the age at which Ahn Chang-Ho became nationally recognized as a leader of his countrymen. By the age of 24 Ahn Chang-Ho was known as a leader of his countrymen within the United States as he organized the Kungminhoe (Korean National Association) which inspired his fellow countrymen (in the United States) to hope for national independence.

Here is a download that explains it in detail: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/downloadables/HaeSul/Taekwondo_Haesul_Preview.pdf

Regards,

Stuart
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#372373 - 12/24/07 03:29 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Got it & you are right, it didn't appear till 1983(5) with the 15 volumes & yes originally there were 20 Tuls with no reference to 24 hours.......symbolizing 1 day or life to eternity. However, the addition of the reference to 24 was for his (Ahn's) entire life which he devoted to the education & independencemovement of his Korea, not a specific age that he was, or did I miss something?

I also have seen the differnt years for his birth. Is that because of a difference with the Korean calendar, a mistake by Choi or simply one of the errors that was never corrected by editors?

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#372374 - 12/25/07 07:44 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

, or did I miss something?



No, you didnt miss anything, I just feel the extra bit was 'tacked' on as it fitted with the "24 patterns represent.." and its too co-incidental (to me) that the 24 moves fit extactly with the subject I mentioned.. perhaps this was lost or forgotton or something.. I dont know!

Quote:

I also have seen the differnt years for his birth. Is that because of a difference with the Korean calendar, a mistake by Choi or simply one of the errors that was never corrected by editors?



Again, I do not know why the mistake is there.. I found out it was incorrect pretty easily, so why ever the error occured, the real queston is.. why was it never corrected?

Stuart
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#372375 - 12/25/07 09:08 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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horrible editing which apparently didn't have someone keeping a list of things to be corrected
JMHO

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#372376 - 12/26/07 05:24 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
EarlWeiss Offline
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Thnere are lots of small errors in later versions, notably some inconsistent foot positions and the level of the elbow strike in Yul Guk addittional technique info. Under the original ITF technical corrections were issued in the newsletter for some items. ITF V has now begun to do the same.

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#372377 - 12/29/07 01:43 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

>>>I recently attended with Master Rai of ITF-C, As directed by GM Choi, they have begun to re-introduce kihaps to the patterns.<<<

It seems the Son's group, or the son himself is putting his own stamp on the system.

Ity seesm they have also changed 2 moves in Ju Che http://www.tkd.co.uk/Patterns/Juche.htm




Which is odd considering in a recent interview in TKD&KMA magazine he said the patterns/art shouldnt be chnaged!!!

Hmm

Stuart
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#372378 - 12/29/07 01:45 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

We have some "Soft" moves in the Chang Hon system such as Hooking Block, Pressing block etc.



Kihap thinh aside.. I dont feel these are or ever were "soft" movements, I feel they are simply moves dont slowly and are there to emphasise dangerous applications that in turn need to be perfromed slowly for safety.

What would be the point in having a few techniques as soft movements? (General question)


Stuart
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#372379 - 12/30/07 05:46 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

What would be the point in having a few techniques as soft movements? (General question) Stuart




Generally speaking, the founder put in slow motion to help empasize that hands, feet, eyes & breath, must move in a single coordinated motion. (one of the 9 parts of the training secret of his TKD)
Additionally, it was to remind the defender that not always will an opponent attack at full speed or even a steady speed.

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#372380 - 12/31/07 09:12 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
EarlWeiss Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

We have some "Soft" moves in the Chang Hon system such as Hooking Block, Pressing block etc.



Kihap thinh aside.. I dont feel these are or ever were "soft" movements, I feel they are simply moves dont slowly and are there to emphasise dangerous applications that in turn need to be perfromed slowly for safety.





What would be the point in having a few techniques as soft movements? (General question)
<<<

Since it would seem that a hooking block is to facilitate a grab, if you do it "Hard" you tend to knock the limb away before you can grab it.

So to some extent we may have to defie what is "Soft" and what is "Hard". another example are "Checking" moves which are menat to check or stop rateher than damage, especialy those like Knife hand X checking where th grabbing facilitation is stated, then you hae "Pushing" which may actualy fall somewhere between a definition of soft and hard.


Edited by Supremor (12/31/07 11:24 AM)

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#372381 - 12/31/07 01:03 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

Generally speaking, the founder put in slow motion to help empasize that hands, feet, eyes & breath, must move in a single coordinated motion. (one of the 9 parts of the training secret of his TKD)



fair enough... though Im not convinced it was warrented or needed for that! I think it would have been better to pick a fast move in one pattern and perfrom an identical one in another that way to emphasise the point (but thats just me )

Quote:

Additionally, it was to remind the defender that not always will an opponent attack at full speed or even a steady speed.



Or a slow motion speed perhaps LOL {wink}



Replies to Earls post:
Quote:

Since it would seem that a hooking block is to facilitate a grab, if you do it "Hard" you tend to knock the limb away before you can grab it.



Again, I get the logic as a theory, but I use this block all the time in hosinsul, for exactly that and I do it at full speed and rarely (if ever) knock the arm away.. in fact, as an arm retracts at speed, it makes more sense to me to perfrom it fast/hard to ensure we can grab it in time!


Quote:

especialy those like Knife hand X checking where th grabbing facilitation is stated, then you hae "Pushing" which may actualy fall somewhere between a definition of soft and hard.



Are we talking 'Choong-Moo' here.. if so, as this was originally a middle block (ie. not a checking motion at all) its still IMO not a 'soft' technique. And if checking = slow then surely it would miss what its intended to do anyway. Though, I do understand what you mean by "somewhere between a definition of soft and hard." . however, if the theory you use to the hooking block is applied to the X-Knifehand in its original guise it actually fits!

I see soft as in Tai Chi type motions and therefore there are no soft blocks in TKD as far as Im concerned, not in that sense anyway. However, Im told by a korean friend of mine that Gen Choi was friends with a Tai chi instructor in his latter years which may have influenced him somewhat (and no, I dont know the in's and out's of it all)

As an aside, why is the 2nd hooking block and punch in Joong-gun now performed in the 'connecting motion' way as IMO, this makes no sense, but I doubt I have the insight into Gen Choi's later thinking that you guys have, so Im interested in why it was changed to that way.


And hey, Happy New year to every one.

Stuart


Edited by StuartA (12/31/07 01:09 PM)

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#372382 - 12/31/07 07:13 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
EarlWeiss Offline
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>>As an aside, why is the 2nd hooking block and punch in Joong-gun now performed in the 'connecting motion' way as IMO, this makes no sense, but I doubt I have the insight into Gen Choi's later thinking that you guys have, so Im interested in why it was changed to that way.<<


How about Yul Guk?
I asked him this question at a course. This was his explanation as he demonstrated with a partner. Partner punches and he intercepts with first block and says "Maybe he changes his mind and says he is sorry." Then shows the second block and punch hooking with immediate counter and says "If he attacks again, no second chance."

FWIW he used the sam explanation a couple of times showing a block and saying "Then maybe he changes his mind and apologizes. "

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#372383 - 12/31/07 07:20 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: EarlWeiss]
EarlWeiss Offline
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>>>Are we talking 'Choong-Moo' here.. if so, as this was originally a middle block (ie. not a checking motion at all) its still IMO not a 'soft' technique. And if checking = slow then surely it would miss what its intended to do anyway.<<<

Now we are getting somewhere. AFAIAC Soft does not = Slow. That was easy to point out. Now how to explain it ??? I'll try. The soft moes are done with speed, but perhaps it is less use of mass and follow thru thta puts them in the soft category. This is part of the reasonwe have and use the terms "Checking" and "Pressing" which designates techniques meant to intercept, stop and check, rather than damage.

This is different tha showing an otherwise hard and powerful technique in slow motion to show control, balance and clearly demonstrate characteristics of the technique, as well as have an esthetic aspect. So, in this regard the failure of Slow motion to be practical is irrelevant and touches upon the Black Belt Mag article from a couple of months ago which addresses the "Art" as being beyond practical.

Yes in Chong Moo it was not originaly defined as checking which lead to some confusion.

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#372384 - 12/31/07 07:20 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: EarlWeiss]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

FWIW he used the sam explanation a couple of times showing a block and saying "Then maybe he changes his mind and apologizes. "




I'm sorry, that's hilarious!

Happy new year, folks!
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#372385 - 12/31/07 07:47 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

As an aside, why is the 2nd hooking block and punch in Joong-gun now performed in the 'connecting motion' way as IMO, this makes no sense, but I doubt I have the insight into Gen Choi's later thinking that you guys have, so Im interested in why it was changed to that way.




Another way it was explained was the relevant position of the attacker. If the hooking block hooek the outside of their arm, you are in a semi-protected position, as you have that arm in the way of the other, less exposed. In the case of hooking the inside of the arm, you are more exposed & opened to attack. Therefore, the next move to counter is connected to the hook, as you are more exposed, so the follow up is connected to the hook.

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#372386 - 01/01/08 04:36 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

How about Yul Guk?



Sorry, I meant Yul Guk, not Joong-Gun :-/

Quote:

I asked him this question at a course. This was his explanation as he demonstrated with a partner. Partner punches and he intercepts with first block and says "Maybe he changes his mind and says he is sorry." Then shows the second block and punch hooking with immediate counter and says "If he attacks again, no second chance."



Out of interest, what do you think of this explanation? To me, the second block/punch combination is no more immediate than not using the connecting motion as most do a great big pause between the two movements, but thats just my POV!

Thanks,

Stuart
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#372387 - 01/01/08 04:40 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

Now we are getting somewhere. AFAIAC Soft does not = Slow. That was easy to point out. Now how to explain it ??? I'll try. The soft moes are done with speed, but perhaps it is less use of mass and follow thru thta puts them in the soft category. This is part of the reasonwe have and use the terms "Checking" and "Pressing" which designates techniques meant to intercept, stop and check, rather than damage.



Ah! I geddit.. you use the term 'soft' to apply to any block that isnt (in theory) meant to do damage to the opponent, where as I view a 'soft' technique as 'tai chi' like. To me at least, palm blocks etc. are still performed as a hard block even if they are 'suppose' to deflect, rather than damage... so I see where we are crossing-wires.

Stuart
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#372388 - 01/01/08 04:48 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

Another way it was explained was the relevant position of the attacker. If the hooking block hooek the outside of their arm, you are in a semi-protected position, as you have that arm in the way of the other, less exposed. In the case of hooking the inside of the arm, you are more exposed & opened to attack. Therefore, the next move to counter is connected to the hook, as you are more exposed, so the follow up is connected to the hook.




To me, with or without the 'connecting motion' the way its now performed in the pattern.. the same applies either way the combination is performed, but Im guessing the reason for it is to highlight the said point!! and as I dont think it needs highlighting physically, maybe thats why I cant really see the relevance to doing it.

Anyway, thanks to you both (ITFunity & Earl) for the information/explanation of things, at least I have a kind of reasoning for them, even if I dont strictly agree with them.

Cheers,

Stuart
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#372389 - 01/01/08 08:56 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
trevek Offline
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If we consider the hooking blocks in Yul Gok (I think) then we do the two. Might we be deflecting and grabbing one arm and forcing the attacker's momentum to put them in another position whereby we can use the second hook to take hold at a different point and use our 'punch' as a push to create a takedown throw.

OR we are deflecting and pulling the attacker onto our strike in the style of a TC single whip.
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#372390 - 01/01/08 09:02 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: trevek]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

If we consider the hooking blocks in Yul Gok (I think) then we do the two. Might we be deflecting and grabbing one arm and forcing the attacker's momentum to put them in another position whereby we can use the second hook to take hold at a different point and use our 'punch' as a push to create a takedown throw.



Definatly an application. My question was not concerning the actual 3 moves themselves, but why the 'connecting' motion between moves #2 & #3 now perfromed in the ITF. AFAIC, none of the applications listed so far warrent the 'connecting' bit as perfromed in the pattern itself (I dont do it that way btw), but it seems its simply there to remind students of various things or emphasis a point! As the points can easily be transmitted verbally, I cannot see reason for the change, plus I always thought changes were suppose to be for practical purposes anyway! ie. to make a move work better!

Stuart
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#372391 - 01/01/08 09:18 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
trevek Offline
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Hi Stuart, Happy New Year!

My mind's fuzzy because it's been a while since I really trained Chang Hon TKD but as I'm into Chen TC at the mo, maybe I can suggest something.

The first hook catches the attacker (let's suggest his arm) and pulls him towards the defender by using the connecting 'cross over' of the arms. The second hand is then in position to give a strike to then neck or a hooking grab to the throat or, if they manage to move, grab the shoulder or lapel.
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#372392 - 01/01/08 10:37 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: MattJ]
EarlWeiss Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

FWIW he used the sam explanation a couple of times showing a block and saying "Then maybe he changes his mind and apologizes. "




I'm sorry, that's hilarious! <<

Don't be sorry, we all laughed. He had an interesting sense of humor.

Happy new year, folks!



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#372393 - 01/01/08 10:39 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
EarlWeiss Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

How about Yul Guk?



Sorry, I meant Yul Guk, not Joong-Gun :-/

Quote:

I asked him this question at a course. This was his explanation as he demonstrated with a partner. Partner punches and he intercepts with first block and says "Maybe he changes his mind and says he is sorry." Then shows the second block and punch hooking with immediate counter and says "If he attacks again, no second chance."



Out of interest, what do you think of this explanation? To me, the second block/punch combination is no more immediate than not using the connecting motion as most do a great big pause between the two movements, but thats just my POV!

Thanks,

Stuart


<<<

I think it was a great answer although in some respects his answers were less than direct and it may have taken more than one course to get his point. In this case the point was and is that everything does not have to be done the same way all the time.

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#372394 - 01/01/08 10:46 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: EarlWeiss]
EarlWeiss Offline
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To elaborate, different situations can call for different things. In one you may just need to block, in another you need to block and counter, in a third you need to block, then block again twith the other hand, then counter. As far as the change, I am guessing you refer to the changeo of calling the second hook block and punch "connecting" There was someinteresting insight into this. He explained having to come up with hundreds of terms to define techniques. He also explained that it took him 15 years to come up with the term "Connecting" to convey what he wanted for this and other techniques later defined as such. Even to this day we do at least one motion not really defined in the text but many have come to call these things "Natural Motion" Examples are Yul Guk # 1, and the hooking blocks.

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#372395 - 01/01/08 01:23 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Definatly an application. My question was not concerning the actual 3 moves themselves, but why the 'connecting' motion between moves #2 & #3 now perfromed in the ITF. Stuart




Again, let me try to elaborate his explanation:
move #15 you are in a right walking stance, performing a hooking block with the right palm, to the outer right forearm of your opponent, who is also in a right walking stance. The assumption is that if the opponent makes a move, being in this semi-protected position, utilizing their body to aide the protected position, if you hook them off balance by pulling, they would be pulled to their left, away from you, with fewer available attacking tools that could be directed your way.
Now the reason why the connecting motion is needed in moves # 16 & 17 is that the assumption he used was that you are in a right walking stance & using your left hand/palm, to the inner forearm of their right arm, but your opponent is also in a right walking stance, therefore, you do not have their body to help shield, so you are in a more vulnerable position & when you pull, they will be pulled towards you, so you must counter in a connected motion.
I hope this helps. I suggest doing it & it may become clearer.

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#372396 - 01/01/08 01:34 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
trevek Offline
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Quote:

Ah! I geddit.. you use the term 'soft' to apply to any block that isnt (in theory) meant to do damage to the opponent, where as I view a 'soft' technique as 'tai chi' like.




Stuart, don't forget 'soft' can also be used to refer to diverting the attackers energy and unbalancing them, or putting into a more favourable position through deflection whilst presenting them with a fist to run into (a la TC)
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#372397 - 01/01/08 06:56 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
EarlWeiss Offline
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>>Now the reason why the connecting motion is needed in moves # 16 & 17 is that the assumption he used was that you are in a right walking stance & using your left hand/palm, to the inner forearm of their right arm, but your opponent is also in a right walking stance, therefore, you do not have their body to help shield, so you are in a more vulnerable position & when you pull, they will be pulled towards you, so you must counter in a connected motion.
I hope this helps. I suggest doing it & it may become clearer<<<

This is an important point often emphasized by General Choi at courses and often overlooked. Not with regard to connecting motion, but with regard to positioning and his emphasis on blocking to the outside of the opponent when practical in order to limit their ability to launch a second attack.

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#372398 - 01/02/08 12:13 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: trevek]
StuartA Offline
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trevek
Quote:


Stuart, don't forget 'soft' can also be used to refer to diverting the attackers energy and unbalancing them, or putting into a more favourable position through deflection whilst presenting them with a fist to run into (a la TC)



Yes... I guess I was just being dumb! Must still be recovering from the new year celebrations.


EarlWeiss
Quote:

He also explained that it took him 15 years to come up with the term "Connecting" to convey what he wanted for this and other techniques later defined as such.



This I have heard before and though it maybe so, considering all the patterns courses he held, why was it not always shown that way if thats what he wanted? Term of it or not, actions speak louder than words after all!

Quote:

..many have come to call these things "Natural Motion" Examples are Yul Guk # 1, and the hooking blocks.



I see 'natural motion' as the original up/down sine wave motion.. are you refering to the same or different thing?


Anyway, I think we have come about as far as we can with regards to what I was trying to find out (the reasoning behind the connecting motion for the 2nd block/punch combo), though I am a little clearer on how things have been explained away, the introduction of it (to me) doesnt really change anything on an application level.

ITFunity... I have tried it, many a time and all it seemed to do for me was create a gap between the 2nd hooking block and the punch, hence why I was trying to get my head around the actual reasoning for it.

Thanks again guys,


Stuart
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#372399 - 01/02/08 02:39 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
trevek Offline
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Perhaps if the second hooking block is a grab to the arm or even the jacket the next motion (sine-wave or waist twist) unbalances or over balances the attacker whereby they are pushed backwards (for example), resist by pushing forward and are pulled into the oncoming punch as the blocking hand goes into 'reaction' position to the waist.
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#372400 - 01/02/08 05:19 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: trevek]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

Perhaps if the second hooking block is a grab to the arm or even the jacket the next motion (sine-wave or waist twist) unbalances or over balances the attacker whereby they are pushed backwards (for example), resist by pushing forward and are pulled into the oncoming punch as the blocking hand goes into 'reaction' position to the waist.




Hi Trevek,

I know a fair few applications to these techniques, from off-balancing opponents, arm locks, as well as grab/strike, it was not applications I was after, but the reasoning why in the ITF now a days, they rise on the second block and drop on the punch (the connecting motion bit), rather than the standard dropping into each technique. I guess you have to know the ITF way to understand (not sure if you do or dont tw), but none of the applications listed here or elseware require the 'connecting' motion IMO, all can be perfromed without it, hence why I didnt understand the change from the old way.

Cheers,

Stuart
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#372401 - 01/02/08 06:18 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
trevek Offline
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Hi Stuart, ah, now I understand. I was puzzled as to how someone of your level (way above mine!) was puzzled. Sorry if it seemed like I was suggesting otherwise.

No, I wouldn't know what the ITF do. I trained TAGB and GTI Chang Hon which, as some practitioners of 'true TKD' tell me, is more akin to Shotokan because it uses the waist twist rather than the sine wave.

Actually, when I last trained with an ITF club I was surprised at how some of the patterns had changed from what my instructors (who trained in UKTA) were teaching.

On another point, what has been really great in this thread is how we have been able to see insights into General Choi as a technician and teacher, rather than as a 'politician', which we often see him portrayed as.

More technical threads such as this would be great rather than Vs threads on WTF/ITF uniforms and hairstyles
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#372402 - 01/02/08 07:57 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: trevek]
EarlWeiss Offline
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>>EarlWeiss

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He also explained that it took him 15 years to come up with the term "Connecting" to convey what he wanted for this and other techniques later defined as such.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This I have heard before and though it maybe so, considering all the patterns courses he held, why was it not always shown that way if thats what he wanted? Term of it or not, actions speak louder than words after all!<<<

Well, I attended 6 with him since 1990 and hosted 1. It was always shown this way at each one I attended.

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#372403 - 01/02/08 09:19 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
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EarlWeiss
Quote:

Well, I attended 6 with him since 1990 and hosted 1. It was always shown this way at each one I attended.




Fair enough, Im sure it was, though it was never shown to me that way or any in the org I was in (Chief instructor and my instructor direct under GM KH Rhee) and was only impliment in my (ex) org much later on.

That would mean that it was in practice (just without a proper term) in 1975 if my maths a correct!! My instructors, nor his instructors, nor his learnt it that way back then!

Cheers for the info,

Stuart

Ps. No problemo Trevek.. what is "true TKD" anyway
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#372404 - 01/02/08 11:04 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

ITFunity... I have tried it, many a time and all it seemed to do for me was create a gap between the 2nd hooking block and the punch, hence why I was trying to get my head around the actual reasoning for it. Thanks again guys, Stuart




But are you looking at move #15 in isolation from #s 16 & 17? That is essential IMHO.

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#372405 - 01/02/08 11:12 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:



But are you looking at move #15 in isolation from #s 16 & 17? That is essential IMHO.




Its only really 16 & 17 that Im querying!! I dont understand what you are refering to by looking at #15 in isolation!! Can you expand a bit?

Thanks,

Stuart
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#372406 - 01/02/08 11:28 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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.......it was not applications I was after, but the reasoning why in the ITF now a days, they rise on the second block and drop on the punch (the connecting motion bit), rather than the standard dropping into each technique. I guess you have to know the ITF way to understand.......IMO, all can be perfromed without it, hence why I didnt understand the change from the old way.
Cheers, Stuart




This is exactly the point. The way we were taught TKD by Ambassador Choi was very dependent on knowing the purpose & method of what you were doing. It is one of the 9 parts of the training secret of his TKD. Understanding how we generate power is another. Often those who do not train or understand more fully the theories & secret or methods of how we do things, IMNSHO are in a weaker position as to more fully comprhending & accepting these theories. (Please do not view as a copout or attack, as it truly is not offered in such a vein.)

First off, through his many years of researching & developing his methods, he often had access to great MAists & other methods of support to help him progress. It resluted in having some 3,200+ fundamental movements that would be used as YOU, the student saw fit, given the situation AT HAND.

Second, many of his earlier Korean instructors only learned the patterns karate style & others left before his final revisions were adopted. I am sure there are many that can explain his way, like Master Lu & Master Ri. GMS Steiner & Master Weiss are 2 that do a great job of explaining it on forums such as this. However, once one becomes further removed from the sourse, things are lost. Thats just the way it is. Also, so many of these aspects are open to interpetation, which further complicates the issue.

Now to try & put it all together, one must know what they are doing (obviously) & then realize the best way to do it, but be aware that under certain conditions, they may have to adapt.
This is the case of movements # 16 & 17 (as well as #19 & 20) in the 5th gup green belt Tul called Yul Gok (Who by the way is one of the 3 faces who appear on SK paper money. They have only 3 demomnitations of paper currency. King SeJong & Toi Gye appear on the other 2.)

In other words, there are going to be times when you can not USE sine wave in combat. That is why you must follow his intructions to train under realistic conditions. Theory is theory. Use what you can, when you can, but the bottom line is defending yourself.

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#372407 - 01/02/08 11:36 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

EarlWeiss
Quote:

Well, I attended 6 with him since 1990 and hosted 1. It was always shown this way at each one I attended.



Fair enough, Im sure it was, though it was never shown to me that way or any in the org I was in (Chief instructor and my instructor direct under GM KH Rhee) and was only impliment in my (ex) org much later on. Cheers for the info,
Stuart




Yes that the way it was when I first learned under him.

Now the issue of why others did not learn it or pass it along, is another subject. It is very difficult to spread an Art worldwide, with such specific standards & requirements. All in all, he did a really great job just accomplishing that.

It didn't really start filtering down till access to training directly under him started to occur more frequently. JMHO

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#372408 - 01/02/08 11:42 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

But are you looking at move #15 in isolation from #s 16 & 17? That is essential IMHO.



Its only really 16 & 17 that Im querying!! I dont understand what you are refering to by looking at #15 in isolation!! Can you expand a bit? Thanks,Stuart




Yes Sir, certainly. Please go back to how I laid it out with the stances. #15 is right walking stance for both & the defender is hooking their right palm on the right outer forearm. No need to connect the next move because of the semi-protected position given the set up. Now forget about #15.
Look at #s 16 & 17 by themselves. Remember this time you are exposed, with the assumption or position being, RWS with the left palm hooking the inner forearm of the opponent, resulting in a more vulnerable position, requiring a connecting motion.

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#372409 - 01/02/08 12:53 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
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ITFunity
Quote:

This is exactly the point. The way we were taught TKD by Ambassador Choi was very dependent on knowing the purpose & method of what you were doing. It is one of the 9 parts of the training secret of his TKD. Understanding how we generate power is another.



Ah!, but the connecting motion generates no more power than original sine wave motion (now natural motion)!

Quote:

Often those who do not train or understand more fully the theories & secret or methods of how we do things, IMNSHO are in a weaker position as to more fully comprhending & accepting these theories. (Please do not view as a copout or attack, as it truly is not offered in such a vein.)



I dont take it as an attack.. I am at a loss to understand why this motion was put into place, hence why I asked two of the most knowledgable ITF guys I know of (You and Earl).. I understand the theory put forth.. but they still do make any more sense to me than a non-connecting motion done in a fast manner Im afraid!

Quote:

First off, through his many years of researching & developing his methods, he often had access to great MAists



And in counter to that, his position left him to his own devices most of the time... ie. no one contradicted a General!!

Quote:

& other methods of support to help him progress. It resluted in having some 3,200+ fundamental movements that would be used as YOU, the student saw fit, given the situation AT HAND.



If its as the student saw fit or required, why bother having such motions embedded in the patterns in the first place.!!

Quote:

Second, many of his earlier Korean instructors only learned the patterns karate style & others left before his final revisions were adopted.



Not the one I refered to.. he was his most loyal student.. hence why I questioned the motions validity before a few years back!

Quote:

However, once one becomes further removed from the sourse, things are lost.



Isnt everyone removed from the sourse nowadays.. its only those with insight ike you and Master weiss that can explain these little inconsitency to a meathead like me.. and despite what everyone may thing, I do appreciate your efforts and respect what you have to say... even if I dont always agree!

Quote:

In other words, there are going to be times when you can not USE sine wave in combat.



Sine wave isnt the issue.. the "why" connecting motion is!

Quote:

That is why you must follow his intructions to train under realistic conditions.



well holding a motion up in the air, then follwoing with another doesnt actually strike me as realistic Im afaid.. hard parry, hard strike does!

Again, I appreciate yours (and Earls) effort in passing on his reasoning and its not you I dont agree with, but the reasoning itself.. as it makes no dfference to any application I can think of (or any posted here)!

Cheers,

Stuart
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#372410 - 01/02/08 04:33 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
trevek Offline
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Hi Stuart,

You asked "what is "true TKD" anyway ?"

I tis a bit of a tongue in cheek reference to an article I read recently in an old copy of a long gone British MA mag where some guy had embraced ITF and gone to a seminar with the General. He (the author) then made some rather patronising comments about those who learned the waist twist instead of learning the 'true art of TKD' with the sine-wave.

It didn't seem to occur to him that what he described as being 'more akin to Shotokan Karate' was considered 'true TKD' when it was taught by (then) Master Rhee to members of UKTA.

Happily, not all of the ITF guys I've trained with (never having been a member of ITF)are so narrow minded.Trained with Grant Churchward in Devon for a few weeks and his club is great, with some great folk training there. He was able to give me a little more insight into ITF style yet still encouraged me to use my waist twist.
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#372411 - 01/02/08 04:42 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: trevek]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

Hi Stuart,

You asked "what is "true TKD" anyway ?"

I tis a bit of a tongue in cheek reference..




I know mate.. hence the smiley
Know exactly what you mean!


Stuart
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#372412 - 01/02/08 07:52 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
flynch Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Quote:


Quote:

First off, through his many years of researching & developing his methods, he often had access to great MAists



And in counter to that, his position left him to his own devices most of the time... ie. no one contradicted a General!!




People did contradict his view points especially on the patterns but his response was always go create your own martial art if you don't like mine.

Quote:


Quote:

Second, many of his earlier Korean instructors only learned the patterns karate style & others left before his final revisions were adopted.



Not the one I refered to.. he was his most loyal student.. hence why I questioned the motions validity before a few years back!




I completely disagree. They took the time to learn the "new S/W" they just did not agree that it was effective.


Edited by flynch (01/02/08 07:54 PM)

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#372413 - 01/02/08 08:09 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: flynch]
StuartA Offline
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Posts: 443
Quote:

People did contradict his view points especially on the patterns but his response was always go create your own martial art if you don't like mine.



No offence to the General, but from many stories I have heard if someone differed from his point of view, his reply was often "Are you military.. what do you know"! or similar! And if a contradiction comes from a lack of understanding of something, surely an education on the said subject was more warrented than none at all with a don't like it, get lost type of response! To me that says something more!

Quote:

I completely disagree. They took the time to learn the "new S/W" they just did not agree that it was effective.



Agree or not, if the General wanted something taught a certain way in the ITF.. then it was done so, a 10 to 20 year gap between learning it and then teaching it doesnt make much sense to me, especially from his No 1 student!

Stuart
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#372414 - 01/02/08 09:28 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

First off, through his many years of researching & developing his methods, he often had access to great MAists



And in counter to that, his position left him to his own devices most of the time... ie. no one contradicted a General!!




Not really, especially when he introduced his Art to NK (1980). There he had access to extensive research support, much like the Kukkiwon & KTA provided the WTF with.


Edited by Supremor (01/03/08 12:08 PM)

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#372415 - 01/02/08 09:31 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Second, many of his earlier Korean instructors only learned the patterns karate style & others left before his final revisions were adopted.



Not the one I refered to.. he was his most loyal student.. hence why I questioned the motions validity before a few years back!




Yes, but you miss that point by a wide margin. GM Rhee was his most loyal student. However it had little if anything to do with talent or knowledge. he was after all, the only one who never left his side. Of course GM Sereff, was another, but he did not have the same pressures as the Koreans & he came on the scene a bit later.


Edited by Supremor (01/03/08 12:08 PM)

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#372416 - 01/02/08 09:34 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

In other words, there are going to be times when you can not USE sine wave in combat.



Sine wave isnt the issue.. the "why" connecting motion is!

Quote:

That is why you must follow his intructions to train under realistic conditions.



well holding a motion up in the air, then follwoing with another doesnt actually strike me as realistic Im afaid.. hard parry, hard strike does!





No this is an example of him saying that you don't have time to go up & down (SW). That is exactly what connecting motion is. Less SW or as others would say less exagerating up/down stuff....... LOL

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#372417 - 01/02/08 10:13 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:


No this is an example of him saying that you don't have time to go up & down (SW). That is exactly what connecting motion is. Less SW or as others would say less exagerating up/down stuff....... LOL



Ah! Why didnt you just say that in the first place (Though I wont mention the down/up/down thing lol ). And I see where some of the confusion is coming from. To explain: most the time when I've seen it performed that way, they must exaggerate the gap between the two moves, to the point of an 'almost' pause.. hence why it seemed to make it all take too long! see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhzJLvH24Fs (from the Legacy CD I believe) - is it me or does it just seem like it takes longer to perfrom than simply doing the two moves on their own!!! And TBH, the blocks in the videos wouldnt (IMO) work in any form of application performed at the speed and/or intensity shown on the clip! So in essense, 'connecting' motion is suppose to be about speed between 2 techniques right? If so, that makes much more sense to me!



Quote:

Not really, especially when he introduced his Art to NK (1980). There he had access to extensive research support, much like the Kukkiwon & KTA provided the WTF with.



Research support like what? As far as Im aware, NK were largely unmartial and definatly un-TKD until General Choi arrived.. so 99.9% of imput would have been a one way street wouldnt it!

Quote:

Yes, but you miss that point by a wide margin. GM Rhee was his most loyal student. However it had little if anything to do with talent or knowledge.



I dont think I missed your point, though you may have missed mine. It wasnt about talent, it was about how the ITF was run back then, and those most ardent followers of him would have implimented a change straight away would they? Hence my wonderings as to why it took so long to filter through! Not sure what GM Sereff has to do with it though, so maybe I did miss your point after all

Stuart
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#372418 - 01/03/08 07:00 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
trevek Offline
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An interesting little tale for you... when I was involved with GTI (UK based assoc which broke away from TAGB... itself a break away from GM Rhee's UKTA) we actually explored the possibility of 're'joining ITF. The General came to UK and our members attended seminars with him, not least to be introduced to the sine-wave.

It was very interesting to see some of the developments over a 10 year period which marked differences between our practices and official ITF.

Eventually it was decided it was not a route we would take (although some members did choose to leave GTI and join ITF). However, it was notable that G.M. Rhee was not present at the seminars. Word had it (never did find out how true it was) that GM Rhee chose not to attend as a form of protest at certain members of GTI who had presumably caused him to lose face when they left UKTA to form TAGB.

I was never sure if this was one of the reasons we didn't return to ITF.
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#372419 - 01/03/08 08:42 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: trevek]
matxtx Offline
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What was the reason for the break from the TAGB and forming of the GTI?
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#372420 - 01/03/08 08:58 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: matxtx]
trevek Offline
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I'll PM so as not to derail the thread.
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#372421 - 01/03/08 10:44 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Not really, especially when he introduced his Art to NK (1980). There he had access to extensive research support, much like the Kukkiwon & KTA provided the WTF with.



Research support like what? As far as Im aware, NK were largely unmartial and definatly un-TKD until General Choi arrived.. so 99.9% of imput would have been a one way street wouldnt it!
Quote:



No NK had MAs prior to the Ambassador introducing his TKD there. They called it KukSul or TaeKyon. How widespread it was is not clear. History shows that early Kwan members went to or disappeared in the north. Surely the military trained in a form of SD. Remember the 1st group of NKs trained in 1981 in that special 7 month course by them Master Park Jun Tae, were reported to have previous MA training.

Forget that for now. The research support I mean was in the field of science, physical & sports education. Remember also the strong sports program of the Soviet Union & the eastern bloc countries, like East Germany. These countries invested a lot of time, energy & resources into developing their atheletes. NK's ties were to those countries, especially the Soviet Union, who after all were responsible (50%) for the division of Korea in the 1st place. It was also Tito of the former Yugoslavia who was instrumental in opening the door for the ITF into NK.

NK was & still is no different from the idealogy of those failed nations. They have a very strong sports development program. It is essential to their Juche philosophy of self reliance. As such, they have unversities & colleges that teach & research advancement in these fields. In addition, the Korean Taekwon-Do Committee, the north's counterpart to the south's KTA has a R & D section. They have acces to the academic research & this has been shared with the ITF for some time now, in much the same way the Kukkiwon receives it in Seoul.

Remember, the development of TKD is pretty much unlike any other MA. It was an early version of a MMA. Early on, there were many military experts & talented MAists that contributed. Over the years, with the support of their respective govts, academic R & D was thrown into the mix.

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#372422 - 01/03/08 10:54 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Yes, but you miss that point by a wide margin. GM Rhee was his most loyal student. However it had little if anything to do with talent or knowledge.



I dont think I missed your point, though you may have missed mine. It wasnt about talent, it was about how the ITF was run back then, and those most ardent followers of him would have implimented a change straight away would they? Hence my wonderings as to why it took so long to filter through! Not sure what GM Sereff has to do with it though, so maybe I did miss your point after all
Stuart




Oh sorry Sir, I see & agree. My point was that IMHO the Ambassador felt that way because he never left. GM Rhee echos that. Given that & keeping that in mind, GM Rhee could have done anything as far as technique goes, he wasn't going to be admonished. Remember, many instructors went overseas & taught what they were 1st trained in. Any changes would have had some impact, many feeling negatively, in their own DoJang & organizations. That is why many did not change & wholesale changes or adoption of these revisions did not take hold till the natives of the respective countries starting taking the leadership roles. JMHO

GM Sereff reference was just to pay homage to his lifelong, steady & continuous loyalty to his teacher. It was just GM Rhee & him that were steadfast always. BTW I am glad I finally relayed the SW/connecting motion. LOL

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#372423 - 01/03/08 11:08 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

BTW I am glad I finally relayed the SW/connecting motion. LOL



LOL.. yup.. though Im still not convinced how warrented or need it is is/was!

Touche on the NK bit, and though I see your pont (about the Eastern Bloc countries etc.) how far reaching this was for TKD remains unknow (as in if they fused what they knew with the TKD), so again, I remain unconvinced of its impact on the development of TKD as a whole, though Im sure once GM Park visited, then the science of it all may have gone into overdrive a little!

Stuart
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#372424 - 01/03/08 11:08 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

What was the reason for the break from the TAGB and forming of the GTI?




Perhaps it would make an interesting thread to discuss why certain associations split from others, perhaps starting at the top with the ITF and working down!

Stuart
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#372425 - 01/03/08 04:05 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
trevek Offline
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It would Stuart but it's also a can of worms I wouldn't want to open. If we were able to talk rhetorically it might be ok but it wouldn't take long for such a thread to dissolve into inter-association name calling, I fear.
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#372426 - 01/03/08 06:14 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: trevek]
flynch Offline
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Can of worms sounds good. Please feel free to open it

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#372427 - 01/03/08 06:22 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
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Posts: 265
Quote:

Quote:

Yes, but you miss that point by a wide margin. GM Rhee was his most loyal student. However it had little if anything to do with talent or knowledge.



I dont think I missed your point, though you may have missed mine. It wasnt about talent, it was about how the ITF was run back then, and those most ardent followers of him would have implimented a change straight away would they? Hence my wonderings as to why it took so long to filter through! Not sure what GM Sereff has to do with it though, so maybe I did miss your point after all
Stuart




Oh sorry Sir, I see & agree. My point was that IMHO the Ambassador felt that way because he never left. GM Rhee echos that. Given that & keeping that in mind, GM Rhee could have done anything as far as technique goes, he wasn't going to be admonished. Remember, many instructors went overseas & taught what they were 1st trained in. Any changes would have had some impact, many feeling negatively, in their own DoJang & organizations. That is why many did not change & wholesale changes or adoption of these revisions did not take hold till the natives of the respective countries starting taking the leadership roles. JMHO




I think you are over simplifying the process of what went on during that time.

The assumption that you make seems to be that the changes were for the better. When the pioneers had more influence the changes were not made because the pioneers did not feel they were an improvement. It took time for the General to turn the majority of the junior instructors against the pioneers who did not stay. It was the pioneers who are the people who supported the ITF for years and on who's backs the ITF was developed and spread all over the world. This was just another way for the General to choose politics over Tae Kwon Do.

jmho


Edited by flynch (01/03/08 06:26 PM)

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#372428 - 01/03/08 07:32 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: flynch]
StuartA Offline
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Posts: 443
Quote:

I think you are over simplifying the process of what went on during that time.




Hi Chris,

though I feel your reply was to ITFunitys post, I thought I would clarify where I stand on all this.

1. I pretty much believe (as both ITFunity & Earl now - hence our debates) that latter changes (including the change in the new sine wave motion as many are aware) were more politically motivated than for the better of the art itself!

2. My post about GM Rhee was simply to question why someone so loyal to the ITf would take so long to impliment a change.. no more, no less!

Stuart
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#372429 - 01/03/08 09:01 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

I think you are over simplifying the process of what went on during that time.
The assumption that you make seems to be that the changes were for the better. When the pioneers had more influence the changes were not made because the pioneers did not feel they were an improvement. It took time for the General to turn the majority of the junior instructors against the pioneers who did not stay. It was the pioneers who are the people who supported the ITF for years and on who's backs the ITF was developed and spread all over the world. This was just another way for the General to choose politics over Tae Kwon Do. jmho





Yes Mr. Flynch you are right. I was certainly giving a simple version. However in doing so, was not to give weight to your valid input, but rather to highlight that GM Rhee remained loyal to Gen Choi, not the ITF & it was for that reason that Gen Choi labeled him as such. It was in that light that I was trying to explain to Mr. Anslow that Gen Choi could not have afforded to lose any more Korean instructors, so GM Rhee could have perfromed any number of ways & taught however.

I also make no claim that any of the changes were for the better. I do know that some do not fully understand the entire context of the theories.

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#372430 - 01/03/08 09:06 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

1. I pretty much believe (as both ITFunity & Earl now - hence our debates) that latter changes (including the change in the new sine wave motion as many are aware) were more politically motivated than for the better of the art itself! Stuart




I think as TKD was developed, there were always changes & additions during that period. This I also think was not limited to the Oh Do Kwan, the ITF or Gen Choi & his followers. Since the very beginning these changes were both for the betterment of the Art & for political reasons. In the early days, the political reasons were to enable TKD to be distinguished from karate.

Over the years, the political motivations changed, but a real desire to imrpove the Art was there as well. JMHO

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#372431 - 01/04/08 04:15 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
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Posts: 265
Hello to you both and thank you both for your clarifications. (BTW some great videos you have posted Stuart quite impressive. It did inspire me to compile some old photos and clips but only for personnal viewing) I think both of you bring up valid points wrt GM Rhee. A person I do not know I might add.

I just wanted to highlight some other aspects and ensure they were noted. If there are those who do not understand these new theories and critise them then they should at least take the time to review and understand them before they critise.

Please also note that it is not that I disapprove of Sine Wave in patterns as it is the way I originally learned things as you may know. I think it adds an asthetic rhythm and the patterns are more "pleasing to the eye". I have been concerned about the effectiveness of the concept and of some of the other changes to the patterns/trainning over the years. With my introduction to "natural motion" and the extensive time I have been spending with that... I just have to question that is all. We spend a considerable amount of time reveiwing and testing changes in pattern movements. Trying to determine which movement is more effective in a real life situation. BTW it is usually me saying OK here is the way they do it now. How did they do it before and which way is better?

This would be more my question (it maybe unknowable) which changes were for the betterment of Tae Kwon Do's fighting skills and which for political reasons? Even if they were done for political reasons do they now benefit your trainning?


Edited by flynch (01/04/08 04:41 AM)

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#372432 - 01/04/08 04:36 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Quote:

Quote:

Not really, especially when he introduced his Art to NK (1980). There he had access to extensive research support, much like the Kukkiwon & KTA provided the WTF with.



Research support like what? As far as Im aware, NK were largely unmartial and definatly un-TKD until General Choi arrived.. so 99.9% of imput would have been a one way street wouldnt it!




No NK had MAs prior to the Ambassador introducing his TKD there. They called it KukSul or TaeKyon. How widespread it was is not clear. History shows that early Kwan members went to or disappeared in the north. Surely the military trained in a form of SD. Remember the 1st group of NKs trained in 1981 in that special 7 month course by them Master Park Jun Tae, were reported to have previous MA training.

Forget that for now. The research support I mean was in the field of science, physical & sports education. Remember also the strong sports program of the Soviet Union & the eastern bloc countries, like East Germany. These countries invested a lot of time, energy & resources into developing their atheletes. NK's ties were to those countries, especially the Soviet Union, who after all were responsible (50%) for the division of Korea in the 1st place. It was also Tito of the former Yugoslavia who was instrumental in opening the door for the ITF into NK.

NK was & still is no different from the idealogy of those failed nations. They have a very strong sports development program. It is essential to their Juche philosophy of self reliance. As such, they have unversities & colleges that teach & research advancement in these fields. In addition, the Korean Taekwon-Do Committee, the north's counterpart to the south's KTA has a R & D section. They have acces to the academic research & this has been shared with the ITF for some time now, in much the same way the Kukkiwon receives it in Seoul.

Remember, the development of TKD is pretty much unlike any other MA. It was an early version of a MMA. Early on, there were many military experts & talented MAists that contributed. Over the years, with the support of their respective govts, academic R & D was thrown into the mix.




I too question this...

General Choi had a process for developing this Art. He would take the ideas that he had and run them by a highly trainned and skilled group of pracitioners that had been training together for 20 to 25 years. I just don't think it sounds reasonable to assume that the changes or developement that happened after he alienenated most of his top Korea Instructors (those that had been with him for 20 plus years) could produce a superior product. I am not necessarily saying that I am able to judge but it just does not sound logical that if you take away most of the "military experts & talented MAists" whom you had used to bounce your ideas off and get feedback from for over twenty years you might make changes that are no longer benefical. Just something to think about.


Edited by Supremor (01/04/08 06:57 AM)

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#372433 - 01/04/08 06:55 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: trevek]
trevek Offline
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sorry chaps, can we try to keep the quotations and things down to a smaller length. It get shard to plough through the discussion when each letter is accompanied by half the debate already quoted.

Thanks
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#372434 - 01/04/08 07:57 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: flynch]
StuartA Offline
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Posts: 443
Hi Chris,

Glad you enjoyed the videos.. would love to see your photos if you want to share (PM is cool)

I note you mention both sine wave and natural motion and place them in that order, but many now term the old sine wave natural motion to distinguish it from the new relax/up/down version - see: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/ARTICLES_Patterns_Sinewave_diags.html .... so I am wondering what you do now and/or did previously?


ITFunity,
General Choi publically said in the mid 1980s ('85 I think) that his work on the patterns were complete.. so therefore any big changes after that IMO are suspect (as political motivated). This holds more weight if some of the things discussed were as some believe always there, but not implimented! Thats like building a car and waiting for the turbo booster part to arrive and fit but still saying it was complete.. you wouldnt even say that until it actually was!!

trevek
Isnt that why theres a qute button Seriously, I feel its a good idea to quote the point your responding to, but perhaps everyone should avoid quoting previous stuff to keep posts shorter. It would be easier if the forum would simply quote directly on the page rather than using a pop-up box though!

Stuart
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#372435 - 01/04/08 10:31 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
Supremor Offline
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Quote:


General Choi publically said in the mid 1980s ('85 I think) that his work on the patterns were complete.. so therefore any big changes after that IMO are suspect (as political motivated).




I don't know about big changes, but I am getting increasingly anxious every time there is an International Instructor's Course, and some little detail of the patterns gets changed. I heard just a couple of months ago that I punch incorrectly when performing a side kick, and that I perform the low-stance palm downward block wrong. I can understand standardization, but sometimes it gets a bit annoying having to retrain movements because of some little decision within the ITF.

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#372436 - 01/04/08 11:03 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

This would be more my question (it maybe unknowable) which changes were for the betterment of Tae Kwon Do's fighting skills and which for political reasons? Even if they were done for political reasons do they now benefit your trainning?




I for one, seperate patterns from fighting. Patterns IMHO help you with fundamentals, that often can not cross over into realistic combat. Fighting must be as realistic as possible given the constraints required by the nature of what we do.
To me, I think the SW up/down to relax/up/down was more politically motivated. Relax?U?D was always there. It was never emphasized or eben mentioned. Now it seems it is over exagerrated. JMHO

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#372437 - 01/04/08 11:06 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

.......it just does not sound logical that if you take away most of the "military experts & talented MAists" whom you had used to bounce your ideas off and get feedback from for over twenty years you might make changes that are no longer benefical.




Could you ask GM CK Choi if they ever consulted scientists or experts in the medical &/or sports fields? Thanks.......

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#372438 - 01/04/08 11:15 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

ITFunity,
General Choi publically said in the mid 1980s ('85 I think) that his work on the patterns were complete.. so therefore any big changes after that IMO are suspect (as political motivated). This holds more weight if some of the things discussed were as some believe always there, but not implimented! Thats like building a car and waiting for the turbo booster part to arrive and fit but still saying it was complete.. you wouldnt even say that until it actually was!!Stuart




Sir, I for one do not think that there were many changes to the patterns. Now they were 1st started to be developed in 1954(?) (40s & 50s). Of course the 1st 4, Hwarang, ChungMu, UlJi & GaeBaek came 1st. As far as documenting them, there is little change from 1972 to 2002. Some changes occurred in written form from 1965 to 1972. A noted pioneer, GM CK Choi uses 1972 as when TKD was pretty much finalized. My analysis of all the textbooks & I have every one, with every edition except 1 of edition of the 15 volumes & 1 condensed version of same. I can report the changes are minimal. Often related to motions, not new movements. What has changed is how some fundamental movements are performed. This of course carries over to the patterns. IMHO the emphasis from up/down to relax/up/down had political overtomes to it, due to the loss of Master Park Jung Tae. he was for years, the Man!

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#372439 - 01/04/08 11:20 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: Supremor]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

General Choi publically said in the mid 1980s ('85 I think) that his work on the patterns were complete..



I don't know about big changes, but I am getting increasingly anxious every time there is an International Instructor's Course, and some little detail of the patterns gets changed. I heard just a couple of months ago that I punch incorrectly when performing a side kick, and that I perform the low-stance palm downward block wrong. I can understand standardization, but sometimes it gets a bit annoying having to retrain movements because of some little decision within the ITF.




Do you think it is a change or maybe you may have been shown it wrong or no one picked up on it? This is something that must be scrutinized if standardization is to be realized. JMHO

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#372440 - 01/04/08 11:30 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
Supremor Offline
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Quote:


Do you think it is a change or maybe you may have been shown it wrong or no one picked up on it? This is something that must be scrutinized if standardization is to be realized. JMHO




No, from what I understand it is disagreements between different countries. For instance, in the UK GM Ree Ki Ha showed sidekicks in the colour belt patterns(except Hwa-rang) to be performed with a punch that was chambered at the hip. However, in some other countries, the punch was chambered across the chest and swings across into the same finishing position. There was a debate at the last big IIC and they decided that the latter would become the official version.

The change with the palm downward block is a strange one, and I have no idea why it has changed, because if you ask me, the new way of performing it has less utility.

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#372441 - 01/04/08 11:38 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: Supremor]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

No, from what I understand it is disagreements between different countries. For instance, in the UK GM Ree Ki Ha showed sidekicks in the colour belt patterns(except Hwa-rang) to be performed with a punch that was chambered at the hip. However, in some other countries, the punch was chambered across the chest and swings across into the same finishing position. There was a debate at the last big IIC and they decided that the latter would become the official version.




Yes it is a general requirement that for all side kicks in a pattern, a high punch is to be executed at the same time, unless other specific instructions exists, as in the case of HwaRang which is to pull the hands in the opposite direction. In my judgement, GM Rhee is correct. Which ITF taught the course?
This is a throwback to the way the late Master Park Jung Tae did it. I think many just copied him, including the NKs for whom he had been their 1st/primary teacher. They of course became to be viewed by some as the standard bearer.

However, this is not a punch. It is more like a side fist, or even an ineffective cross cut using the knuckles. I think ITF-V has been teaching more of the swing.

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#372442 - 01/04/08 11:40 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
Supremor Offline
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Quote:


However, this is not a punch. It is more like a side fist, or even an ineffective cross cut using the knuckles. I think ITF-V has been teaching more of the swing.




That's exactly my problem with it. But hey ho, if that's how they want it

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#372443 - 01/04/08 11:41 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: Supremor]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

The change with the palm downward block is a strange one, and I have no idea why it has changed, because if you ask me, the new way of performing it has less utility.




Please explain?
And where you a good student in the IIC, who asked the magic question, WHY?

Also, be careful, as you probably are aware, these may be more interpetations of what the founder meant or wanted. We no longer have a final arbitrater, so they are probably going to become more commonplace.

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#372444 - 01/04/08 11:50 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
Supremor Offline
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Well I didn't actually attend the IIC, but the changes are passed down through the organisation and my instructor hears about them from his instructor(the head of the org).

Quote:


Please explain?




Okay, although it is a very minor and difficult to explain change:

In Joong-Gun and Kwang-Gae, there are palm downward blocks, where the blocking hand comes down and the reaction hand comes out in front. They are performed in low stance and in slow motion. The difference is with the wrist. I was taught to have the wrist bent so that the hand is parallel with the ground. It has now changed to having the wrist straight.

My problem with this, is that the most basic application I was taught for the block is that it is against a front kick from an angle, however with wrist straight it doesn't feel as effective in that role. Of course, it's a very small change and doesn't matter too much, and I'm sure other instructors teach quite different applications.

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#372445 - 01/04/08 11:54 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: Supremor]
ITFunity Offline
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Which ITF hosted the course?

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#372446 - 01/04/08 12:06 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
Supremor Offline
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I think it was Vienna, although I'd have to check.

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#372447 - 01/04/08 12:07 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: Supremor]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

But hey ho, if that's how they want it




And this is my issue (not with you but with changes), any chnages should be done to improve the technique, not to be different etc. and not cos they feel like it! Students shouldnt be forced to do things that are less effective because the big boys at the top say so.. your palm block change is a perfect example!

Stuart
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#372448 - 01/04/08 12:07 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
trevek Offline
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I was present at a seminar with the General in 1994 (I think) where he said his research was finished and it was now upto his 6th dans (and above) to continue the research.

What puzzles me is that the ITF manifesto says that Gen Choi created TKD "in perfection". Well if it was perfect then why did it need more research or changes?
I seem to recall he also said something about not needing to keep looking to Koreans for guidance as the European high dans were good enough (however, my memory might be playing games with me).
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#372449 - 01/04/08 12:13 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: trevek]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

It would Stuart but it's also a can of worms I wouldn't want to open. If we were able to talk rhetorically it might be ok but it wouldn't take long for such a thread to dissolve into inter-association name calling, I fear.



I think it would be interesting anmd informative.. so here goes... http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15977960


Quote:

Can of worms sounds good. Please feel free to open it






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#372450 - 01/04/08 02:59 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: trevek]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

What puzzles me is that the ITF manifesto says that Gen Choi created TKD "in perfection".




I agree with your other points, but what do you mean by the ITF manifesto? Thanks

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#372451 - 01/04/08 03:02 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

.......any chnages should be done to improve the technique, not to be different etc. and not cos they feel like it! Students shouldnt be forced to do things that are less effective because the big boys at the top say so..





Agreed, but I never let modifications to patterns or fundamental movements interfere with SD & working on what works under realistic conditions. JMHO

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#372452 - 01/04/08 03:39 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

Agreed, but I never let modifications to patterns or fundamental movements interfere with SD & working on what works under realistic conditions. JMHO



Well, if patterns are mean to help muscle memory, then doing it one way in the patterns and another in SD would contradict each other! Worse still is for the students, who 1) dont know both ways 2) Are ingraining a technique thats not as workable than the alternative 3) Arnt allowed to choose because the instructor teaches them "that way" because otherwise it will affect their grading result!

Stuart
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#372453 - 01/04/08 07:56 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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I have no comeback & you make valid points. Honestly, for me, TKD is more than just SD & for me, it all fits fine & I have no problem putting things into seperate compartments.

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#372454 - 01/04/08 09:22 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
flynch Offline
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Quote:

Hi Chris,

Glad you enjoyed the videos.. would love to see your photos if you want to share (PM is cool)

I note you mention both sine wave and natural motion and place them in that order, but many now term the old sine wave natural motion to distinguish it from the new relax/up/down version Stuart




Well see on the pictures. I am much older than when I began and I have no pictures from my youth but non practioners were impressed

As for the order I am referring to my own experience which is reverse of many. I first learned patterns with SW when it was first introduced or began to be the General's focus. It by the way was taught to us at the time by a direct student of General Choi (a former student of JJ Lee and JC Kim) and it was introduced to us as I remember as something of a "new concept". This was in 1986.

Fast forward to 4 years ago when I met my current instructor the concept that I was introduced to was Natural Motion which has a slight up and down similar to what would occur naturally when one was just walking (hence the name Natural Motion it occurs naturally).

Hopefully that clears things up

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#372455 - 01/04/08 09:26 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
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Quote:

[Could you ask GM CK Choi if they ever consulted scientists or experts in the medical &/or sports fields? Thanks.......




I can ask but I not for maybe two months

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#372456 - 01/04/08 10:53 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
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Quote:

I have no comeback & you make valid points. Honestly, for me, TKD is more than just SD & for me, it all fits fine & I have no problem putting things into seperate compartments.




I have to agree with Stuart. I also think that this is what was lost when the General isolated the most senior practioners. He had nobody left that was willing to question him and his changes. Nobody left to maintain the focus on Tae Kwon Do as primarily about self defense.

I find it difficult to put the two into seperate compartments.

I have heard the rationale that:

Patterns are about the Art and have nothing to do with fighting.

Patterns are a form of exercise and as such it doesn't matter how hey are done.

I would like to believe that all trainning is focused on making each individual better able to defend themselves. I appreciate that other people use Tae Kwon Do for other reasons and that is great but it should always be secondary. You can't loose the primnary focus of trainning your mind and your body for self defense as that would be unfair to successive generations.

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#372457 - 01/04/08 10:57 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: flynch]
flynch Offline
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And I must be really out of the loop with the whole palm block thing.

Why change a technique in a pattern if there is no benefit?

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#372458 - 01/04/08 10:59 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
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Quote:


A noted pioneer, GM CK Choi uses 1972 as when TKD was pretty much finalized.




To clarify the copy is fromn 1972 but there are many hand written corrections in the margins of the text.

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#372459 - 01/05/08 01:09 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

I also think that this is what was lost when the General isolated the most senior practioners. He had nobody left that was willing to question him and his changes. Nobody left to maintain the focus on Tae Kwon Do as primarily about self defense.

Patterns are about the Art and have nothing to do with fighting.




The TKD left to us by Ambassador Choi had better living as the focus, with the goal of building a more peaceful world. As such, the physical became a path to that & secondary to it as well. Now the most important PHYSICAL part still remains SD. But it is a SD Art form. Now others may not agree with that, understand that or accept that, which of course is fine.

Now as far as patterns & SD go, does any body really step forward into a walking stance with a low block with outer forearm & follow it up with another step forward into another walking stance punching with the forefist? I think their is little connection to SD with formal Tuls (ChonJi). JMHO

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#372460 - 01/05/08 05:23 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: flynch]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

I first learned patterns with SW when it was first introduced or began to be the General's focus. ...Fast forward to 4 years ago when I met my current instructor the concept that I was introduced to was Natural Motion ..



Thats interesting... as 'Natural Motion' was the term given to the old (up/down) sine wave once the newer version had taken grip, to distinguish them apart. Your previous instructor must have implimented it really quickly (hence my previous point about why GM Rhee didnt) as in the UK we didnt even see it widley spread til the mid 90's!!


Quote:

I have heard the rationale that: Patterns are about the Art and have nothing to do with fighting. Patterns are a form of exercise and as such it doesn't matter how hey are done.



I have heard that too, but Gen Choi's own definition of "Tul" shows that cannot be true.

see: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/ARTICLES_Patterns_Sinewave.html

Stuart
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#372461 - 01/05/08 05:27 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
trevek Offline
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I mean the constitution of ITFNK, although I misquoted. It was 'systemised into perfection'
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#372462 - 01/05/08 10:40 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
matxtx Offline
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Quote:

Now as far as patterns & SD go, does any body really step forward into a walking stance with a low block with outer forearm & follow it up with another step forward into another walking stance punching with the forefist? I think their is little connection to SD with formal Tuls (ChonJi). JMHO





Being one of the most knowledgable on here about TKD and patterns being a big part I find it interesting you say that.Not in a bad way.Just interesting.
Do you teach SD as a seperate part?

It seems to me there are three idea's.
One, like that above.Not SD,more to do with art and excercise.

One where you abbreviate or adapt the techniques to fit real fight time and tacticaly fit the situation.

One where,like Stuarts books,the techniques are applications and are combat ready as they are.


I was taught more along the lines of second idea with a seperate SD section.It works for me as I can take things over to my MMA/NHB.

But I always used to wonder where the SD came from if not the patterns.


Edited by matxtx (01/05/08 10:55 AM)
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#372463 - 01/05/08 03:05 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Now as far as patterns & SD go, does any body really step forward into a walking stance with a low block with outer forearm & follow it up with another step forward into another walking stance punching with the forefist? I think their is little connection to SD with formal Tuls (ChonJi). JMHO





Being one of the most knowledgable on here about TKD and patterns being a big part I find it interesting you say that.Not in a bad way.Just interesting.
Do you teach SD as a seperate part?

But I always used to wonder where the SD came from if not the patterns.




Well the answer to this may be hard to relay in a forum such as this, with its obvious limitations. However I will try.

I do not know what type of MA or TKD you train in. As you may be aware, I have little exposure to other MAs. However, I fully immerse myself into diligent, life long study of my Art, ITF TKD or the Chang Hon style of TKD. I have been at it for over 30 years, during a time period that has spanned 4 decades. My answers are guided by the 15 volume Encylopedia of TKD by Ambassador Choi Hong Hi. I mention this, as I think no other MA has been as fully documented. More importantly I think there are few that have this resource & fewer who actually delve fully deep into it. When you do, you may find that some things become easier to see. With that in mind:

There are 5 physical parts of TKD. It is called the composition of TKD (TKD Goosung). This composition takes the form of a circle as it is a cycle (Soonhwan Do Cycle of TKD). This cycle of training, because of its circular entanglement, sometimes makes it hard to distinguish one from the other. Let me try to simplify by listing the 5 parts:
1) fundamental movements likened to a soldier's basic training
2) Dallyon likened to the maintenance of a soldier's equipment
3) patterns likened to a platoon's tactics
4) sparring likened to field exercises in simulated combat conditions
5) SD likened to actual combat

Now remember Chang Hon TKD of the ITF was developed in the south Korean Military by a 2 star major-general & many talented MAists. In my school, the 5 physical parts of the TKD composition is required & tested both in a written exam & oral questioning.

Now these areas overlap & are dependent on one another. Dallyon or conditioning is needed to stretch & toughen the body so one can perform. The fundamental are important as they are the building blocks of patterns, sparring & SD. Patterns uses fundamentals in a more flowing way & helps with sparring. Sparring requires conditioning, the grasp of fundamentals & patterns in order to engage in simulated conditions. All of these help when it comes to actual combat!

Under our system SD comes in at red belt level. It is seperate from fundamentals, patterns & sparring, but utilizes all 3, plus the toughening of conditioning. That is why we wait till almost BB to introduce a student to it.

True SD IMHO & in the guidance of the founder, comes into play, by grasping as many of the 3,200+ fundamental movements & applying them to the actual situation at hand, under realistic conditions. Time & again, the student will constantly go back to fundamentals attempting to raise the degree of proficency.

Now are there better ways to learn down & dirty SD. Yes of course. However, our TKD is an Art of SD. This activity has more than 1 purpose. Even though SD is the most important physical part, the struggle to build a better life is more important. In addition, this Art has a sport aspect & characteristics that are beautiful & pleasing to the eye of those watching.

So patterns are an important part of TKD. They were often referred to as the founder's signature. I just don't think that many will defend themselves like the quote repeated at the top of this post. Or am I wrong? Do people fight like that?

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#372464 - 01/05/08 04:24 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
matxtx Offline
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Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Thanks.
Good post.

Your not wrong,no one fights like that haha.

Were I train my TKD we do all those things but its never been explained to me like that as a cycle to make the whole.I had to work most of that out for myself.Maybe I should ask more questions.Haha
Plus its not as equal,emphasising more on some parts than others.
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I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#372465 - 01/06/08 06:34 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
As I stated in the book, I too see things as a circle, that overlap to form what is TKD. The Patterns = Platoon Tactics I feel is simply the way of 'mass' training them.. not individual patterns per se.

As stated previously, General Chois own definition of patterns, as a series of offensive sequence etc. means that he felt they were more than just a way of training or for the art!

Patterns ARE fundamentals, put in sequence, so if they are no more than training movements there are no need for them in the 'circle' as fundamentals cover that anyway!

Also, (as stated in the book) I dont believe on their own, just solo patterns, that they are self defence, they have to be drilled in 1 step & hosinsul (as well as standard drills), this is where the overlap with hosinsul comes. I aslo dont believe they are fighting per se, though much can be used 'in fight' and again, this is where the overlap comes.

I also feel changing stuff too much is counter productive. Its like roaring round a race track at 200mph, learning all the skills associated with it, then trying to race a rally car.. similar things (as in racing), but different things required.. so its counter productive.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#372466 - 01/06/08 11:31 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I also feel changing stuff too much is counter productive. Its like roaring round a race track at 200mph, learning all the skills associated with it, then trying to race a rally car.. similar things (as in racing), but different things required.. so its counter productive.
Stuart




Agreed 100% & that is why I stated above that our Art is more than just SD, with SD being secondary. So if one wants to train just for effective SD, then they should train in a combat system that is geared towards the attacks one would most likely face.

Given your comment, I then gather that you would see little or no value with traditional patterns for practical SD. Or is it just the way the patterns execution is performed (movement) that you find problematic?
Regardless of how one performs patterns, why do you teach them? Are your students fighting like the 1st 2 movements in ChonJi highlighted previously, with those walking stances?
I think not, but await your rely.
Thanks.

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#372467 - 01/06/08 01:40 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Given your comment, I then gather that you would see little or no value with traditional patterns for practical SD.



I see patterns without function as giving less than they should.. yes they help a few things, but their primary focus is SD techniques (Not SD in itself), to ingrain them into muscle memory, so a student doesnt have to think - he/she just has to "Do"!

Quote:

Or is it just the way the patterns execution is performed (movement) that you find problematic?



As you know I simply feel solo patterns are stage 1 in their purpose of what they should be instilling in student. No problems in pattern execution, whatever way they are done.. as long as they help towards the end goal of what is TKD!

Quote:

Regardless of how one performs patterns, why do you teach them?



As I stated, to develop muscle memory, to catalogue the techniques, to enable "Platoon" teaching (ie. group teaching), to develop combinations of technique and last but by no means least, because they are a big part of the art I study & teach.. I simply place more purpose to them than some schools and capitalize on what they can offer.

Quote:

Are your students fighting like the 1st 2 movements in ChonJi highlighted previously, with those walking stances?



No.. because I dont believe patterns are fighting... however, they may used those moves for self defence if the situation applies.. eg. grabbed from behind.. use move one as a bodydrop throw and move 2 as a following punch to the attacker. Stances used for stability or forward power.. foot motion of stance transition is part of the throwing technique also!

Quote:

I think not, but await your rely.



Then you think wrong!! Now let me ask you why you practice stances and what value they have for you?

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#372468 - 01/06/08 07:53 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Stances do several things, depending on the stance. A walking stnce is very stable with regard to an attack coming directly from the fron. In a SD situation you often see one person "Steamrolling' another pushing them backward and off balaced whcih makes it difficult for thm to defend or attack. The walking stance can help avoid this problem as well as allowing for movement straight back or forward when needed. L stance facilitates lead leg kicks and helps minimize damage to the fron leg if kicked or avoid takedowns if swept. The half facing posture helps "Hide" many of your vital spots from direct frontal assaults. Sitting stance, is more transitional but useful if there are opponents to both sides.

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#372469 - 01/06/08 07:55 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: EarlWeiss]
EarlWeiss Offline
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Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
The three basic stances, walking, sitting and L, also provide a nice center point along a continuum from which to adapt to other traditional stances which are similar such as rear foot, low, fixed, etc. as well as non traditional fighting or sparring positions. It is easier toadapt from a center point along a continuum than from an extreme.

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#372470 - 01/07/08 01:21 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
matxtx Offline
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Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
The way I train now is as a fighter and to be a fighter.Training as though I will come across other well trained fighters.
So I dont seperate self defence from a fight.As soon as something physical happens no matter if its an assualt,its now a fight.The only difference is how it starts.But thats more to do with soft skills and common sense like being aware,not going to 'bad' places,not being a tit head,how to talk your way out etc.
After that its still a fight.
So I took and take this 'cycle' to mean that everything comes together to be used in a fight.Thats how I take that 'cycle' explanation.
Thats why Im sceptical of applications and I attempt to fit everything into real fight time.Untill iv seen applications done in real fight time in realistic conditions, I will be wary.
Thats just me.Dont know if its right or wrong but coupled with MMA/NHB training it works for me.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#372471 - 01/07/08 01:47 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Sorry, gotta disagree.. though fighting forms part fo the SD make up, in itself it is not SD.. its what happens when it all goes pear shaped!

By not using patterns apps for the pivital first moments I think you are missing out on something, as they represent the chance to stop something or change the tide before it gets into a full on ruckus.. but thats fine and of course your choice.

Eitherway, as I said in a previous post, their (patterns apps) place and role is my personal opinion, others feel they are part and parcel of fighting and I agree, many can be used in fight.. I would suggest maybe getting hold of Iain Abernethys 'kata based sparring' DVD and checking it out for this aspect.

BTW, I dont no any SD instructor (Geoff Thompson et al) that advocates fighting as a form of SD! Fighting is the back up, not the starter!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#372472 - 01/07/08 02:19 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Im dont advocate fighting.You misunderstood.
As soons it goes physical its now a fight.Im fighting back.For my life or whatever.The soft skills before that moment is real SD I believe.I will avoid the situation using those skills.
For the phyical side I will train at all ranges against the best fighters I can, training as the best fighters do.

All of the SD guys I know of were/are fighters anyway who can make what they show work well because of it.Geoff Thompson,Dennis Jones,Mick Coup,Nick Hughes etc etc.
Fighter fitness,fighter tactics,fighter mentality in that violent moment etc.
Dont get me wrong,I dont go around getting into fights haha.

Anyway.Its fine it you dont think that.

Any sample clips of that DVD?


Edited by matxtx (01/07/08 02:22 PM)

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#372473 - 01/08/08 02:55 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Ah! I see what you call the "soft" side as the Self Protection side. I refer to things as SD when it becomes physical.

Like I said, with patterns people are free to see them how they choose. one thing that a lot of people missed when I wrote that book was that I wasnt saying "Patterns are the key to self defence" or this is TKDs self defence techniques.. actually the reason is really simple.. I wrote it to give patterns and their trining more meaning and substance. The applications themselves are self defence techniques and can be used in self defence (and many in fighting).. though like any technique they can be taken out of the pattern and trained that way, just like training a technique froma school that doesnt have patterns/kata's... but TKD does and thats that.. they can now be utilized and more beneficial to a student who does train them.

Also, you have to think or the origins of such exercises.. TKD father arts didnt even have sparring.. it was all kata kata kata.. so how did those guys become such lengendary martial artists and fighters.. if they didnt training fighting all the time!!! Id say it was because they invested so much time and effort into their katas, including the right mindset, that most of their fights they stopped before they started witha few blows (or even a single block)...hence why I place applications in the position I do.


I too like to train myself against other fighters, stylists whatever as it helps me to become a better fighter, which is of course useful. We also have a dedicated Self protection program that can be taught (and is for outsiders) with no martial knowledge like a training student would have. To me, fighting is the back up arsenal.. if I can finish something quickly then I will and patterns I believe are one of the tools to help you do that (there are others.. pre-emptive striking etc.)


Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#372474 - 01/08/08 11:31 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

As stated previously, General Chois own definition of patterns, as a series of offensive sequence etc. means that he felt they were more than just a way of training or for the art!
Patterns ARE fundamentals, put in sequence, so if they are no more than training movements there are no need for them in the 'circle' as fundamentals cover that anyway!
Also, (as stated in the book) I dont believe on their own, just solo patterns, that they are self defence, they have to be drilled in 1 step & hosinsul (as well as standard drills), this is where the overlap with hosinsul comes. I aslo dont believe they are fighting per se, though much can be used 'in fight' and again, this is where the overlap comes. Stuart




Yes & it is clear that you have been doing some diligent studying. LOL


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#372475 - 01/08/08 07:14 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Yes & it is clear that you have been doing some diligent studying. LOL





Always.. Im a student first & foremost after all.

Now... lets get back to that question about stances... why you practice stances and what value they have for you?

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#372476 - 01/08/08 08:27 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Stances are an important basic building block. Good stances are important element of the TOP. Traditional stances are used for patterns & fundamental movements. For fighting, I use a comfortable & more flexible stance. I would also echo what the Master, Master Weisss said.

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