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#372466 - 01/06/08 11:31 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I also feel changing stuff too much is counter productive. Its like roaring round a race track at 200mph, learning all the skills associated with it, then trying to race a rally car.. similar things (as in racing), but different things required.. so its counter productive.
Stuart




Agreed 100% & that is why I stated above that our Art is more than just SD, with SD being secondary. So if one wants to train just for effective SD, then they should train in a combat system that is geared towards the attacks one would most likely face.

Given your comment, I then gather that you would see little or no value with traditional patterns for practical SD. Or is it just the way the patterns execution is performed (movement) that you find problematic?
Regardless of how one performs patterns, why do you teach them? Are your students fighting like the 1st 2 movements in ChonJi highlighted previously, with those walking stances?
I think not, but await your rely.
Thanks.

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#372467 - 01/06/08 01:40 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Given your comment, I then gather that you would see little or no value with traditional patterns for practical SD.



I see patterns without function as giving less than they should.. yes they help a few things, but their primary focus is SD techniques (Not SD in itself), to ingrain them into muscle memory, so a student doesnt have to think - he/she just has to "Do"!

Quote:

Or is it just the way the patterns execution is performed (movement) that you find problematic?



As you know I simply feel solo patterns are stage 1 in their purpose of what they should be instilling in student. No problems in pattern execution, whatever way they are done.. as long as they help towards the end goal of what is TKD!

Quote:

Regardless of how one performs patterns, why do you teach them?



As I stated, to develop muscle memory, to catalogue the techniques, to enable "Platoon" teaching (ie. group teaching), to develop combinations of technique and last but by no means least, because they are a big part of the art I study & teach.. I simply place more purpose to them than some schools and capitalize on what they can offer.

Quote:

Are your students fighting like the 1st 2 movements in ChonJi highlighted previously, with those walking stances?



No.. because I dont believe patterns are fighting... however, they may used those moves for self defence if the situation applies.. eg. grabbed from behind.. use move one as a bodydrop throw and move 2 as a following punch to the attacker. Stances used for stability or forward power.. foot motion of stance transition is part of the throwing technique also!

Quote:

I think not, but await your rely.



Then you think wrong!! Now let me ask you why you practice stances and what value they have for you?

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#372468 - 01/06/08 07:53 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Stances do several things, depending on the stance. A walking stnce is very stable with regard to an attack coming directly from the fron. In a SD situation you often see one person "Steamrolling' another pushing them backward and off balaced whcih makes it difficult for thm to defend or attack. The walking stance can help avoid this problem as well as allowing for movement straight back or forward when needed. L stance facilitates lead leg kicks and helps minimize damage to the fron leg if kicked or avoid takedowns if swept. The half facing posture helps "Hide" many of your vital spots from direct frontal assaults. Sitting stance, is more transitional but useful if there are opponents to both sides.

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#372469 - 01/06/08 07:55 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: EarlWeiss]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
The three basic stances, walking, sitting and L, also provide a nice center point along a continuum from which to adapt to other traditional stances which are similar such as rear foot, low, fixed, etc. as well as non traditional fighting or sparring positions. It is easier toadapt from a center point along a continuum than from an extreme.

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#372470 - 01/07/08 01:21 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
The way I train now is as a fighter and to be a fighter.Training as though I will come across other well trained fighters.
So I dont seperate self defence from a fight.As soon as something physical happens no matter if its an assualt,its now a fight.The only difference is how it starts.But thats more to do with soft skills and common sense like being aware,not going to 'bad' places,not being a tit head,how to talk your way out etc.
After that its still a fight.
So I took and take this 'cycle' to mean that everything comes together to be used in a fight.Thats how I take that 'cycle' explanation.
Thats why Im sceptical of applications and I attempt to fit everything into real fight time.Untill iv seen applications done in real fight time in realistic conditions, I will be wary.
Thats just me.Dont know if its right or wrong but coupled with MMA/NHB training it works for me.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#372471 - 01/07/08 01:47 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Sorry, gotta disagree.. though fighting forms part fo the SD make up, in itself it is not SD.. its what happens when it all goes pear shaped!

By not using patterns apps for the pivital first moments I think you are missing out on something, as they represent the chance to stop something or change the tide before it gets into a full on ruckus.. but thats fine and of course your choice.

Eitherway, as I said in a previous post, their (patterns apps) place and role is my personal opinion, others feel they are part and parcel of fighting and I agree, many can be used in fight.. I would suggest maybe getting hold of Iain Abernethys 'kata based sparring' DVD and checking it out for this aspect.

BTW, I dont no any SD instructor (Geoff Thompson et al) that advocates fighting as a form of SD! Fighting is the back up, not the starter!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#372472 - 01/07/08 02:19 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Im dont advocate fighting.You misunderstood.
As soons it goes physical its now a fight.Im fighting back.For my life or whatever.The soft skills before that moment is real SD I believe.I will avoid the situation using those skills.
For the phyical side I will train at all ranges against the best fighters I can, training as the best fighters do.

All of the SD guys I know of were/are fighters anyway who can make what they show work well because of it.Geoff Thompson,Dennis Jones,Mick Coup,Nick Hughes etc etc.
Fighter fitness,fighter tactics,fighter mentality in that violent moment etc.
Dont get me wrong,I dont go around getting into fights haha.

Anyway.Its fine it you dont think that.

Any sample clips of that DVD?


Edited by matxtx (01/07/08 02:22 PM)

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#372473 - 01/08/08 02:55 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Ah! I see what you call the "soft" side as the Self Protection side. I refer to things as SD when it becomes physical.

Like I said, with patterns people are free to see them how they choose. one thing that a lot of people missed when I wrote that book was that I wasnt saying "Patterns are the key to self defence" or this is TKDs self defence techniques.. actually the reason is really simple.. I wrote it to give patterns and their trining more meaning and substance. The applications themselves are self defence techniques and can be used in self defence (and many in fighting).. though like any technique they can be taken out of the pattern and trained that way, just like training a technique froma school that doesnt have patterns/kata's... but TKD does and thats that.. they can now be utilized and more beneficial to a student who does train them.

Also, you have to think or the origins of such exercises.. TKD father arts didnt even have sparring.. it was all kata kata kata.. so how did those guys become such lengendary martial artists and fighters.. if they didnt training fighting all the time!!! Id say it was because they invested so much time and effort into their katas, including the right mindset, that most of their fights they stopped before they started witha few blows (or even a single block)...hence why I place applications in the position I do.


I too like to train myself against other fighters, stylists whatever as it helps me to become a better fighter, which is of course useful. We also have a dedicated Self protection program that can be taught (and is for outsiders) with no martial knowledge like a training student would have. To me, fighting is the back up arsenal.. if I can finish something quickly then I will and patterns I believe are one of the tools to help you do that (there are others.. pre-emptive striking etc.)


Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#372474 - 01/08/08 11:31 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

As stated previously, General Chois own definition of patterns, as a series of offensive sequence etc. means that he felt they were more than just a way of training or for the art!
Patterns ARE fundamentals, put in sequence, so if they are no more than training movements there are no need for them in the 'circle' as fundamentals cover that anyway!
Also, (as stated in the book) I dont believe on their own, just solo patterns, that they are self defence, they have to be drilled in 1 step & hosinsul (as well as standard drills), this is where the overlap with hosinsul comes. I aslo dont believe they are fighting per se, though much can be used 'in fight' and again, this is where the overlap comes. Stuart




Yes & it is clear that you have been doing some diligent studying. LOL


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#372475 - 01/08/08 07:14 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Yes & it is clear that you have been doing some diligent studying. LOL





Always.. Im a student first & foremost after all.

Now... lets get back to that question about stances... why you practice stances and what value they have for you?

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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