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#372456 - 01/04/08 10:53 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Quote:

I have no comeback & you make valid points. Honestly, for me, TKD is more than just SD & for me, it all fits fine & I have no problem putting things into seperate compartments.




I have to agree with Stuart. I also think that this is what was lost when the General isolated the most senior practioners. He had nobody left that was willing to question him and his changes. Nobody left to maintain the focus on Tae Kwon Do as primarily about self defense.

I find it difficult to put the two into seperate compartments.

I have heard the rationale that:

Patterns are about the Art and have nothing to do with fighting.

Patterns are a form of exercise and as such it doesn't matter how hey are done.

I would like to believe that all trainning is focused on making each individual better able to defend themselves. I appreciate that other people use Tae Kwon Do for other reasons and that is great but it should always be secondary. You can't loose the primnary focus of trainning your mind and your body for self defense as that would be unfair to successive generations.

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#372457 - 01/04/08 10:57 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: flynch]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
And I must be really out of the loop with the whole palm block thing.

Why change a technique in a pattern if there is no benefit?

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#372458 - 01/04/08 10:59 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Quote:


A noted pioneer, GM CK Choi uses 1972 as when TKD was pretty much finalized.




To clarify the copy is fromn 1972 but there are many hand written corrections in the margins of the text.

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#372459 - 01/05/08 01:09 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I also think that this is what was lost when the General isolated the most senior practioners. He had nobody left that was willing to question him and his changes. Nobody left to maintain the focus on Tae Kwon Do as primarily about self defense.

Patterns are about the Art and have nothing to do with fighting.




The TKD left to us by Ambassador Choi had better living as the focus, with the goal of building a more peaceful world. As such, the physical became a path to that & secondary to it as well. Now the most important PHYSICAL part still remains SD. But it is a SD Art form. Now others may not agree with that, understand that or accept that, which of course is fine.

Now as far as patterns & SD go, does any body really step forward into a walking stance with a low block with outer forearm & follow it up with another step forward into another walking stance punching with the forefist? I think their is little connection to SD with formal Tuls (ChonJi). JMHO

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#372460 - 01/05/08 05:23 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: flynch]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

I first learned patterns with SW when it was first introduced or began to be the General's focus. ...Fast forward to 4 years ago when I met my current instructor the concept that I was introduced to was Natural Motion ..



Thats interesting... as 'Natural Motion' was the term given to the old (up/down) sine wave once the newer version had taken grip, to distinguish them apart. Your previous instructor must have implimented it really quickly (hence my previous point about why GM Rhee didnt) as in the UK we didnt even see it widley spread til the mid 90's!!


Quote:

I have heard the rationale that: Patterns are about the Art and have nothing to do with fighting. Patterns are a form of exercise and as such it doesn't matter how hey are done.



I have heard that too, but Gen Choi's own definition of "Tul" shows that cannot be true.

see: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/ARTICLES_Patterns_Sinewave.html

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#372461 - 01/05/08 05:27 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I mean the constitution of ITFNK, although I misquoted. It was 'systemised into perfection'
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#372462 - 01/05/08 10:40 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Quote:

Now as far as patterns & SD go, does any body really step forward into a walking stance with a low block with outer forearm & follow it up with another step forward into another walking stance punching with the forefist? I think their is little connection to SD with formal Tuls (ChonJi). JMHO





Being one of the most knowledgable on here about TKD and patterns being a big part I find it interesting you say that.Not in a bad way.Just interesting.
Do you teach SD as a seperate part?

It seems to me there are three idea's.
One, like that above.Not SD,more to do with art and excercise.

One where you abbreviate or adapt the techniques to fit real fight time and tacticaly fit the situation.

One where,like Stuarts books,the techniques are applications and are combat ready as they are.


I was taught more along the lines of second idea with a seperate SD section.It works for me as I can take things over to my MMA/NHB.

But I always used to wonder where the SD came from if not the patterns.


Edited by matxtx (01/05/08 10:55 AM)
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#372463 - 01/05/08 03:05 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

Now as far as patterns & SD go, does any body really step forward into a walking stance with a low block with outer forearm & follow it up with another step forward into another walking stance punching with the forefist? I think their is little connection to SD with formal Tuls (ChonJi). JMHO





Being one of the most knowledgable on here about TKD and patterns being a big part I find it interesting you say that.Not in a bad way.Just interesting.
Do you teach SD as a seperate part?

But I always used to wonder where the SD came from if not the patterns.




Well the answer to this may be hard to relay in a forum such as this, with its obvious limitations. However I will try.

I do not know what type of MA or TKD you train in. As you may be aware, I have little exposure to other MAs. However, I fully immerse myself into diligent, life long study of my Art, ITF TKD or the Chang Hon style of TKD. I have been at it for over 30 years, during a time period that has spanned 4 decades. My answers are guided by the 15 volume Encylopedia of TKD by Ambassador Choi Hong Hi. I mention this, as I think no other MA has been as fully documented. More importantly I think there are few that have this resource & fewer who actually delve fully deep into it. When you do, you may find that some things become easier to see. With that in mind:

There are 5 physical parts of TKD. It is called the composition of TKD (TKD Goosung). This composition takes the form of a circle as it is a cycle (Soonhwan Do Cycle of TKD). This cycle of training, because of its circular entanglement, sometimes makes it hard to distinguish one from the other. Let me try to simplify by listing the 5 parts:
1) fundamental movements likened to a soldier's basic training
2) Dallyon likened to the maintenance of a soldier's equipment
3) patterns likened to a platoon's tactics
4) sparring likened to field exercises in simulated combat conditions
5) SD likened to actual combat

Now remember Chang Hon TKD of the ITF was developed in the south Korean Military by a 2 star major-general & many talented MAists. In my school, the 5 physical parts of the TKD composition is required & tested both in a written exam & oral questioning.

Now these areas overlap & are dependent on one another. Dallyon or conditioning is needed to stretch & toughen the body so one can perform. The fundamental are important as they are the building blocks of patterns, sparring & SD. Patterns uses fundamentals in a more flowing way & helps with sparring. Sparring requires conditioning, the grasp of fundamentals & patterns in order to engage in simulated conditions. All of these help when it comes to actual combat!

Under our system SD comes in at red belt level. It is seperate from fundamentals, patterns & sparring, but utilizes all 3, plus the toughening of conditioning. That is why we wait till almost BB to introduce a student to it.

True SD IMHO & in the guidance of the founder, comes into play, by grasping as many of the 3,200+ fundamental movements & applying them to the actual situation at hand, under realistic conditions. Time & again, the student will constantly go back to fundamentals attempting to raise the degree of proficency.

Now are there better ways to learn down & dirty SD. Yes of course. However, our TKD is an Art of SD. This activity has more than 1 purpose. Even though SD is the most important physical part, the struggle to build a better life is more important. In addition, this Art has a sport aspect & characteristics that are beautiful & pleasing to the eye of those watching.

So patterns are an important part of TKD. They were often referred to as the founder's signature. I just don't think that many will defend themselves like the quote repeated at the top of this post. Or am I wrong? Do people fight like that?

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#372464 - 01/05/08 04:24 PM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: ITFunity]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Thanks.
Good post.

Your not wrong,no one fights like that haha.

Were I train my TKD we do all those things but its never been explained to me like that as a cycle to make the whole.I had to work most of that out for myself.Maybe I should ask more questions.Haha
Plus its not as equal,emphasising more on some parts than others.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#372465 - 01/06/08 06:34 AM Re: TKD-Skippi's amalgamated patterns [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
As I stated in the book, I too see things as a circle, that overlap to form what is TKD. The Patterns = Platoon Tactics I feel is simply the way of 'mass' training them.. not individual patterns per se.

As stated previously, General Chois own definition of patterns, as a series of offensive sequence etc. means that he felt they were more than just a way of training or for the art!

Patterns ARE fundamentals, put in sequence, so if they are no more than training movements there are no need for them in the 'circle' as fundamentals cover that anyway!

Also, (as stated in the book) I dont believe on their own, just solo patterns, that they are self defence, they have to be drilled in 1 step & hosinsul (as well as standard drills), this is where the overlap with hosinsul comes. I aslo dont believe they are fighting per se, though much can be used 'in fight' and again, this is where the overlap comes.

I also feel changing stuff too much is counter productive. Its like roaring round a race track at 200mph, learning all the skills associated with it, then trying to race a rally car.. similar things (as in racing), but different things required.. so its counter productive.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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