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#370862 - 11/20/07 06:13 AM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: jude33]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I don't understand what you mean by "train technique using a tree"? Do you mean hit the tree? Poor tree...

It's a bit complicated and lengthy to go into any detail to do any justice. It's far easier to show and let you feel it in person.

Just quickly, mental will is yi - intent. Various mental visualization exercises are used to strengthen this.

Qi is something else altogether. If you just stand in a relaxed manner, shoulder width apart, arms by your side. Sink your weight, stand like the top of your head is suspended from the ceiling by an invisible cord, bend your knees slightly, and imagine your tail bone is being pulled into the ground by another invisible cord. "Sit" like you're about to sit in an invisible chair. Breathe normally.

After a while, you will start to notice your arms lift and fall slightly as you breathe in and out. That's the qi. Normally, this is weak, obviously.... since we don't normally move this way, it's entirely foreign. The idea is to strengthen the feeling of the "pull and grab" on all parts of your body, so that when one part moves, the whole moves. BTW, that's what "breathing thru the skin" means. It feels like your skin is being pulled and grabbed with your breath cycle.

Now compare this to the opening sequence of the Yang-shi taiji form - "lift hands". Most people simply lift their arms and hands - usually initiated from the shoulder joint. Instead, try lifting your hands in the same way as when you were standing above. Now, try and catch the feeling of doing this, throughout the entire form!

It is quite possible, of course, to do a form using what most people would consider "normal" and relaxed movement. That's fine too. But it goes back to what I was talking about - unless you know and understand what it is you are training, chances are, you're not training it. You might *think* you are, but it's no different to normal "external" movement, even though you're doing it in a "relaxed" manner. You'd be better off working out at the gym or dancing or something... seriously...

How to use against a resisting opponent? That's jumping the gun a little, but I'll try.

Firstly, it's stupid to struggle against someone who is resisting - what happens is it becomes a contest of strength. Obviously the stronger person will win. My philosophy is, if they want to win so badly, I let them. Ever heard of the classical phrase "invest in loss"? That's what it means. This is the hardest thing for the alphas and betas (i.e. alpha wannabees) to comprehend....

The best way to explain is by using an example.

You know "tug-o-war"? If you both pull against each other, that's resisting. However, if you suddenly let go, what happens? If the rope were a rod and you're both pushing against each other, that's resistance. What if you suddenly turned and let go of the rod? What happens? Ideally, you want to find the path of least resistance, and not give your opponent any opportunity to resist.

BTW, bear in mind that all of this is only a very small part of the "bigger picture". I would suggest you talk to your teacher and ask these questions of him/her. If he/she knows anything (and you will know if they do, or if they're just giving you a load of BS), it is quicker for them to show you.

Once you feel the power, I guarantee you, you will never want to go back to "external".

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#370863 - 11/20/07 06:34 AM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

WT: ...meaning you are on the same level with Chi knowledge as Jeff Gordon and Tiger Woods and the rest of the forum are just spectators of 'real' martial artists? way to go. you really know how to alienate yourself




No, and I never said that. YOU and your other minions who have no knowledge of using chi puport yourselves as experts in all kinds of martial arts, and yet completely discount the use. Chi is also a connection... I can be using chi and be disconnected, and have no result... I can use chi and have a "bad" connection, and the techniques won't work... I can have a "good connection", and throw your a$$ out the dojo door or through the wall.

Take the time to go to Aikido class with your kids, Ed... you might actually learn something. As Eyrie said, "once you learn the internal method, you won't ever want to go external"... it's a simple rule... get some training and you might learn something. That's not arrogance or condecension... just good sense...

By the way, I just posted that so you guys would go ahead and blow off your usual $*** at us... it was just a matter of time, and I didn't want you to have any "pent up feelings"...

Brian... I'm an s$$ and you're an idiot... I guess you win... get some sleep

Eyrie, this subject is like talking to a rock with these guys... when you get through, the rock won't be any smarter about it...



_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#370864 - 11/20/07 07:06 AM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
breathe. and then practice laughing at yourself sometimes.

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#370865 - 11/20/07 07:14 AM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
eyrie, if someone trains the same principles you mention - without ever using any terms, or understanding any theory/conceptual models you are familiar with ...would you consider it the same thing if you saw/felt it? In other words, in your opinion, does 'Chi'/'Ki' have to be in your terms to be understood?

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#370866 - 11/20/07 07:24 AM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Terms? What terms? What theory/conceptual model are you talking about? Can you please clarify? I'm not sure I understand the question....

The thing is, none of this is absolute - it's isn't a black or white thing. There's all these different shades of gray. If I touched hands with someone I would instantly know where their power is coming from and what they are going to do. But that's really basic level stuff. There's much higher levels that I have not yet even begun to scratch the surface of.

So I have NO idea what the heck you are talking about.

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#370867 - 11/20/07 07:52 AM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: eyrie]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Actually, I think I get what you mean now... if you mean will I know if someone else knows this stuff without them talking about it in my terms.... sure. Of course. There is a commonality which is inescapable for those who know and understand - remember what you said about it being in an exclusive club? It's exactly like that.

I've seen the Bossman's videos, and read what he's written. I know he knows, even though he explains it slightly differently. Haven't seen BP, but I know he knows too. Ditto with Grady. LastGuru (whom I haven't seen here for a while) knows too. I'm sure it works the other way too.

Or as BP said before, maybe I'm just theorizing how this all works... so if I ever touched hands with him, he'd know instantly whether I was full of sh!t or not....

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#370868 - 11/20/07 08:24 AM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: eyrie]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Mr Chin, Ashes Sifu, also knows. Watching him move is so much like seeing Bossman move its lovely. This is absolute peach of clip that Ashe put on youtube, theres is a very distinct gem of information in this clip. This is how Bossman teaches, very slowly, very methodically, very mindfully and practically. No Chi balls, no NTKO's, no B.S. This is what IMA's are all about in my opinion. If you look at the very end where Mr Chin mentions the drop down to come up, look at how he uproots the guy, thats an example of what Bossman calls the "Wedge":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuF6hLUzIYM

Now imagine that uprooting being done at the speed Mr Chin is doing his form at here:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15971247

It's not magic, its not mystical and it's most definately not B.S. The clips posted at the start of this thread are garbage, showmanship and theatrics. Some of the guys may have skills, but they cheapen it with the misdirection and idiotic prancing round by their students.

If you really want to see what real IMA's are about watch Ashes clips on Youtube with Mr Chin. Apart from Bossman, hw's the only one I've seen to really look like they can do the job.

Here is Ashe's page (big thanks for sharing this stuff by the Ashe! )

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=ashehiggs
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#370869 - 11/20/07 09:41 AM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: eyrie]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I don't understand what you mean by "train technique using a tree"? Do you mean hit the tree? Poor tree...





Hi
Yes I am afraid that is what I mean.
Using trees as training aids(amongst other things) is done by trad people who use the techniques found in forms as effective fighting methods. The technique of Kao is in forms. I think internal means mind but the external is still needed.



Hi
Wrist Twister
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take the time to go to Aikido class with your kids, Ed... you might actually learn something. As Eyrie said, "once you learn the internal method, you won't ever want to go external"... it's a simple rule... get some training and you might learn something. That's not arrogance or condecension... just good sense...
By the way, I just posted that so you guys would go ahead and blow off your usual $*** at us... it was just a matter of time, and I didn't want you to have any "pent up feelings"...
Brian... I'm an s$$ and you're an idiot... I guess you win... get some sleep
Eyrie, this subject is like talking to a rock with these guys... when you get through, the rock won't be any smarter about it...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi
Aikido being purely internal?

This is the part I dont quite grasp.
The founder of aikido spent a long time working the fields
hand digging, and everything that goes with it. This would mean physical strength. I dont doubt his skill ability from what I have learned but he would still have had physical conditioning.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (11/20/07 09:53 AM)

Top
#370870 - 11/20/07 10:01 AM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: Gavin]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Mr Chin, Ashes Sifu, also knows. Watching him move is so much like seeing Bossman move its lovely. This is absolute peach of clip that Ashe put on youtube, theres is a very distinct gem of information in this clip. This is how Bossman teaches, very slowly, very methodically, very mindfully and practically. No Chi balls, no NTKO's, no B.S. This is what IMA's are all about in my opinion. If you look at the very end where Mr Chin mentions the drop down to come up, look at how he uproots the guy, thats an example of what Bossman calls the "Wedge":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuF6hLUzIYM

Now imagine that uprooting being done at the speed Mr Chin is doing his form at here:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15971247

If you really want to see what real IMA's are about watch Ashes clips on Youtube with Mr Chin. Apart from Bossman, hw's the only one I've seen to really look like they can do the job.

Here is Ashe's page (big thanks for sharing this stuff by the Ashe! )

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=ashehiggs




Mr Chin looks like a good knowledgable instructor. He also looks like he is physicaly strong. External strength by some form of weight training. Combination of internal and external perhaps?

To my mind at the moment chi is something I dont understand.

What I do understand is that seemingly some fighting arts seem to miss other things from their training and even though the techniques exist in that arts forms it seems doubtfull the techniques could be used.

Then they seem not to be considered fighting arts by people in general.

I will leave the thoughts about chi to the practioners of chinese medicine for the time being.

If it does people good then thats a good thing.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (11/20/07 10:21 AM)

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#370871 - 11/20/07 12:28 PM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: jude33]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Aikido being purely internal?




No martial art is all internal. Physical movements require some adaptation of external skills, but how they are done and how the energy used is applied is the "internal" part. There is a difference between being "fit" and being "external". "Getting in shape" is necessary for any physical activity (except keyboard mastery) so having a fit body gives you a "good vessel" to work with.

Quote:

This would mean physical strength. I dont doubt his skill ability from what I have learned but he would still have had physical conditioning.




Where in the internal arts is there anything that teaches you not to be fit and strong? Do you use that as your technique... no... but there's nothing wrong with having strength, you only have to "unlearn" how to use it to use your internal strength.

I constantly tell people to "relax harder" when they're trying to muscle techniques... but I've never told one of them that they shouldn't lift weights, run, or do anything that's physical training. The better shape you're in, the better your chi flow is, and for the most part, your general health. The days I'm not in the dojo, I'm in the gym using the machines.... I just need to relax harder...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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