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#370852 - 11/20/07 12:28 AM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I continue to be amazed that all the experts in calling chi or ki have no experience in it's use, but are supposed to be "practitioners of karate". Karate is momentary applications of ki, unlike the redirections of aikido and jujutsu, but focusing the breath and timing of techniques none the less. You twits wonder why "Old Okinawan masters pounded makiwaras", it was to learn to time their motion and breath together... duh... Just for extra added attractions, they stepped into the makiwara to time their foot movements into the equation...

These were fighting "systems", not collections of individual techniques like a box of parts to put together a bicycle. I would venture to say that most of you "karate practitioners" pay little if any attention to the shape of your arm when making your techniques, which is another clue as to how much you actually know about your art.

Knowing which master farted at the dojo picnic isn't "martial arts history" or "technical knowledge" of your art. Understanding the underlying principles of movements, techniques, carriage, body structure, methods of execution, training, and yes, the ever popular "applications of ki" in your techniques is where your art lies. If you aren't practicing those things, you're only dancing around.

The International Traditional Karate Federation can give you guidelines for what your karate should have in it, and I'm afraid many of you would find out your teachers didn't have the goods... much less YOUR stuff...

If that's insulting, tough $***... it's the truth, and I've been around MA for 45 years... so I've seen more than most of you guys will ever know.

There was a lot of conversation about the old guy with the bunny hopping monkeys, but watching his movements... he was in control from the beginning to end of his techniques. The fact that his students over-played the effects of his redirections doesn't negate the fact that his movements controlled theirs. That's what Eyrie was alluding to in his statement about the video.

The Bill Moyers video mentioned his "vibrating palm", which is quite well known in Tai Chi circles, and the "shake" that is used in fa jing, while not looking like much, is an explosion of energy. You might not feel much from a tai chi master until he jerks your arm out of the socket with one of those simple shakes.

If you have no training in arts using ki, you're only proving your ignorance by telling those who have trained in those arts that they're wrong. I'm sure you could tell the Indy racers what they're doing wrong, and tell Tiger Woods how he should be playing golf.

I used to race sports cars, but I don't go around telling Jeff Gordon how he should be driving at Daytona. For the most part, the people I've been associated with in martial arts have been good people, but I can sense a change in both the attitudes and quality of the practitioners, especially in more "non traditional" arts. Everybody thinks they're a bad-a$$, and everybody thinks that because they have a keyboard, they are experts. Unfortunately, google can't teach you a thing about ki.. it can only find articles and internet chatter about it.

My teacher taught me that I should always have a "student's mind"... constantly learning, testing the information, and putting it into my knowledge bank. He never mentioned anything about calling people liars, or telling them that they were full of crap because he didn't buy their story. Our way of testing things was to try them and find the best teachers we could find to train us in them. Interestingly enough, none of those teachers had that "your stuff is crap" attitude either.

If you don't believe in chi, or ki, fine... don't believe in it. Clearly, you aren't being trained in its use, so like driving at Daytona, I don't expect you to have the skills. That doesn't negate anything that anyone who does train in it has... they simply have a different view, and more knowledge of its application. It's your loss...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#370853 - 11/20/07 12:50 AM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
oh boy. what have you got yourself into now eyrie

I think Harlan's idea of naming 'chi' threads based on the date is a smart idea. Think a year from now when a noob does a search, they will be overwhelmed, and resort to google to give less hits... hopefully, they won't be unintentionally diverted: CHI - Closed Head Injury


let's do a quick experiment: I did a search on this site for the oldest Chi argument (damn when that forum upgrade deleted many posts...!)
from exactly 3 years ago, almost to the day: "sex and chi"
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...rue#Post7063740


I'd say, the forum collective has made a bit of progress. At least people aren't still equating chi to 'mojo' (perhaps inspired at the time from Austin Power's movies)....certainly gives the phrase 'chi blast' a whole new meaning, hey bayby.


however, others might choose to look towards a western science view in the use of the word 'Chi':
The Chi Machine (tm)


which at least does get to the heart of what chi is:

If it feels good, call it whatever you like, bay-by.

Top
#370854 - 11/20/07 01:12 AM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
WT: ...meaning you are on the same level with Chi knowledge as Jeff Gordon and Tiger Woods and the rest of the forum are just spectators of 'real' martial artists? way to go. you really know how to alienate yourself I once saw a bumpersticker: "Just because you think you are different, does not make you an artist."

anyway, there is one glaring hole in your comparrison: People have actually SEEN Jeff Gordon and Tiger Woods do what they do. All we've seen is your level of skill composing sentances...which really is pretty good, btw.

but, the only thing you've managed to prove in those sentances is that cultivating Chi, does not serve to regulate anger or condecendence - but does seem to cut-off one's sense of smell when it comes to their own excrement.

whooo...

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#370855 - 11/20/07 01:29 AM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: eyrie]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Well, Brian, can you honestly tell me karate has had NO influences from Shaolin Buddhist practices? Absolutely none whatsoever? That the katas, hojo undo and other aspects of karate training have not been influenced or derived from such practices? That the breathing, stretching, twisting, spiraling movements of sanchin and other kata have no other conceivable basis to their purpose, other than the "obvious" externalities?




Sure it does, I was there!! Weren't you?

Quote:

As I was just commenting in general... the level of ignorance is simply astounding. If you view that as a personal assault, then perhaps you need to take a good hard look elsewhere.

Or, maybe... just maybe... have I just disrupted your emotional qi from a distance? After all, if you can't touch it, taste it, feel it, see it, hear it... it ain't "real" right?

BTW, I wonder how many more heads oldman's post went over...




Dang! You did!! Simply amazing!!!

I got oldman's post, did you?

As I was just commenting in general... the level of ignorance is simply astounding. If you view that as a personal assault, then perhaps you need to take a good hard look elsewhere.

Or, maybe... just maybe... have I just disrupted your emotional qi from a distance? After all, if you can't touch it, taste it, feel it, see it, hear it... it ain't "real" right?

BTW, I wonder how many more heads oldman's post went over...


_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#370856 - 11/20/07 01:39 AM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: wristtwister]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I continue to be amazed that all the experts in calling chi or ki have no experience in it's use, but are supposed to be "practitioners of karate". Karate is momentary applications of ki, unlike the redirections of aikido and jujutsu, but focusing the breath and timing of techniques none the less. You twits wonder why "Old Okinawan masters pounded makiwaras", it was to learn to time their motion and breath together... duh... Just for extra added attractions, they stepped into the makiwara to time their foot movements into the equation...

These were fighting "systems", not collections of individual techniques like a box of parts to put together a bicycle. I would venture to say that most of you "karate practitioners" pay little if any attention to the shape of your arm when making your techniques, which is another clue as to how much you actually know about your art.




How much do you know about my art? What and how I practice? You don't, you just sit there ASSuming. In karate, I actually touch people.

Quote:

Knowing which master farted at the dojo picnic isn't "martial arts history" or "technical knowledge" of your art. Understanding the underlying principles of movements, techniques, carriage, body structure, methods of execution, training, and yes, the ever popular "applications of ki" in your techniques is where your art lies. If you aren't practicing those things, you're only dancing around.

The International Traditional Karate Federation can give you guidelines for what your karate should have in it, and I'm afraid many of you would find out your teachers didn't have the goods... much less YOUR stuff...

If that's insulting, tough $***... it's the truth, and I've been around MA for 45 years... so I've seen more than most of you guys will ever know.




Pfft...self grandizing much Grady? That wins points. You have been chi-blasting people for 45yrs and you don't have it on video???



Quote:

There was a lot of conversation about the old guy with the bunny hopping monkeys, but watching his movements... he was in control from the beginning to end of his techniques. The fact that his students over-played the effects of his redirections doesn't negate the fact that his movements controlled theirs. That's what Eyrie was alluding to in his statement about the video.




His movement controlled their's? Yet they felt the need to overact?? Sure,that makes sense.

Quote:

The Bill Moyers video mentioned his "vibrating palm", which is quite well known in Tai Chi circles, and the "shake" that is used in fa jing, while not looking like much, is an explosion of energy. You might not feel much from a tai chi master until he jerks your arm out of the socket with one of those simple shakes.

If you have no training in arts using ki, you're only proving your ignorance by telling those who have trained in those arts that they're wrong. I'm sure you could tell the Indy racers what they're doing wrong, and tell Tiger Woods how he should be playing golf.




Indy racers touch their cars who do not act. Tiger Woods hits hit golfballs with a club which does not overact either. Try again.

Quote:

I used to race sports cars, but I don't go around telling Jeff Gordon how he should be driving at Daytona. For the most part, the people I've been associated with in martial arts have been good people, but I can sense a change in both the attitudes and quality of the practitioners, especially in more "non traditional" arts. Everybody thinks they're a bad-a$$, and everybody thinks that because they have a keyboard, they are experts. Unfortunately, google can't teach you a thing about ki.. it can only find articles and internet chatter about it


My teacher taught me that I should always have a "student's mind"... constantly learning, testing the information, and putting it into my knowledge bank. He never mentioned anything about calling people liars, or telling them that they were full of crap because he didn't buy their story. Our way of testing things was to try them and find the best teachers we could find to train us in them. Interestingly enough, none of those teachers had that "your stuff is crap" attitude either.




Is that why you say you know more now than we ever will? Sure! I tell my instructors the same thing! Students mind my a$$.


Quote:

If you don't believe in chi, or ki, fine... don't believe in it. Clearly, you aren't being trained in its use, so like driving at Daytona, I don't expect you to have the skills. That doesn't negate anything that anyone who does train in it has... they simply have a different view, and more knowledge of its application. It's your loss...






Please refrain from namecalling. I won't be able to sleep now knowing that I am just a dancing twit who knows nothing about my martial art.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#370857 - 11/20/07 02:16 AM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: BrianS]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

His movement controlled their's? Yet they felt the need to overact?? Sure,that makes sense.


The problem is, people choose to see what they want to see, hear what they want to hear, and think what they want to think. Like those idiots pulling the hopping bunny antics, some people here need a smack upside the head...

This kind of sloppy thinking is about on par with the hopping bunny antics... which reminds me of the following joke:

Quote:

Monkey Experiment Proves Corporate Policy Process

Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, hang a banana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana. As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the other monkeys with cold water. After a while, another monkey makes an attempt with the same result, and all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon the monkeys will try to prevent it.

Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.

Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm! Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, then the fifth.

Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he is attacked. Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey. After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana. Why not? Because as far as they know thatís the way itís always been done around here.

And that, my friends, is how a company policy begins.




Edited by eyrie (11/20/07 02:18 AM)

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#370858 - 11/20/07 02:49 AM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: eyrie]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

1. lama has *some* skillz... but his New-Agey students are all f**kn idiots.
2. Classic hard qigong demos





Just a suggestion as regards ki and training methods.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJr2BdUTYkU&feature=related
Hi
There seems to be the never ending conflicts on here. Just a question. Lama ? is using his shoulder at 2.37 .

Can I ask how do some of you guys physically/ mentaly train the technique ?


The answers might clear up a few arguments and thoughts

Jude.

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#370859 - 11/20/07 03:27 AM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
That shoulder check is actually a very good technique (but of course not as it's shown on the video as nearly non-touch nonsense). Surprized to see myself typing it, but as eyrie and WT mentioned, try hard to subtract what the uke jester fool is doing, then imagine that side check with full contact and intent. In 2-person drills it literally sends a person slamming into a wall. (which is a good thread idea in it's own right: remember, there isn't just the floor you can hit people with )

Some football professionals cross-train tai chi for a reason


When is the appropriate time to 'use' it? what dynamics and timing are going on, etc - is involved to explain it, but simple to show in 5 minutes. Could also be it's own thread...and without ever mentioning the 'c' word. lol

Top
#370860 - 11/20/07 03:27 AM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: jude33]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
It looks like "kao" in taiji. I think I get what you're asking. It's different to using "shoulder muscle".... The "tell" if someone is using the "shoulder muscle", e.g. if they move their arm from their shoulders, is if they raise their shoulders.

Physically and mentally, training is usually slow and "soft". As you get the hang of it, it's neither slow nor soft.

Top
#370861 - 11/20/07 04:07 AM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

That shoulder check is actually a very good technique (but of course not as it's shown on the video as nearly non-touch nonsense). Surprized to see myself typing it, but as eyrie and WT mentioned, try hard to subtract what the uke jester fool is doing, then imagine that side check with full contact and intent. In 2-person drills it literally sends a person slamming into a wall. (which is a good thread idea in it's own right: remember, there isn't just the floor you can hit people with )

Some football professionals cross-train tai chi for a reason


When is the appropriate time to 'use' it? what dynamics and timing are going on, etc - is involved to explain it, but simple to show in 5 minutes. Could also be it's own thread...and without ever mentioning the 'c' word. lol




Quote:



looks like "kao" in taiji. I think I get what you're asking. It's different to using "shoulder muscle".... The "tell" if someone is using the "shoulder muscle", e.g. if they move their arm from their shoulders, is if they raise their shoulders.

Physically and mentally, training is usually slow and "soft". As you get the hang of it, it's neither slow nor soft.





Excellent

You two agreeing
So how are you training it?
So how about the route of training to be taken if somebody was intending to initialy to train the technique using a tree? The tree type that is middle aged, deep roots, not rotten and hard as a normal tree should be.
More than likely the tree will be in an area where no one can see the training and reach the wrong idea and one that dogs dont have a habit of using.

Full force?.

As per some of the tradional arts trained and indeed still train

I should imagine to use it in training using a tree requires isometric and isotonic strength, the correct technique plus mental will? (Chi?) and the right kind of tree.

What are your collective thoughts?
Discussing (maybe) at a later date with what seems to be some of the other short range techniques found in both arts that you two( and others) experienced practioners practice?

Start a new thread?
Could I suggest
Maybe the initial training methods? Of the shoulder check? From all styles perspective ? Power generation? etc,
then
The counter technique to the technique redirection of energy ( Chi?)
Then
On to where and how to use it against a restisting opponent?

Maybe?

Jude

Just a footnote.
I Know and understand that not all arts/ practioners are aiming or want to aim at the hardcore methods.
I do.
That doesnt mean to say I think everybody else should or is meant to.




Edited by jude33 (11/20/07 04:34 AM)

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