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#370842 - 11/19/07 09:23 PM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: MattJ]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Quote:

what is being attributed to ki can be done by folks with no knowledge or belief of it. Therfore, "ki" cannot be the only element that enables those types of skills




While I am in no way defending the videos, is it possible that someone could be able to use Ki/Chi/Ka (pick one) without understanding it or even knowing that is what is happening?
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#370843 - 11/19/07 09:28 PM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: eyrie]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Quote:

It's equally interesting how the critics can't see the martial value in these little tricks - and they are simply "little" tricks - coz they always need more data, more statistics and more evidence.





No because when you take the "chi master" out of his/her element of his/her OWN students and apply non-believers to the test in a full contact environment they get wrecked, spanked, beaten, dismantled, whooped, and knocked the F out.

Quote:

"True" kara-te was derived from Shaolin-derived Buddhist practices, practices which involve the esoteric cultivation of qi. So if you're not au fait with such practices, are you practising "true" karate?





No. It was derived from Ti (Indigenous Okinawan Fighting Method), and it was mixed with the Hard system of Chu'an Fa during the china trade. And it was then integrated with Japanese bujutsu during the occupation by the Satsuma clan. Kara-te had many influences and was not "derived" from a single budhist meditation method.

And where did this buddist meditation come from? India. Funny can't remember the last time a Penjak Silat practitioner tried to knock out someone with chi. Of course I could be wrong. Hey does anyone know if Dillman made his way to india yet?

Quote:

Reliability is not the issue. The issue is one of efficacy and efficiency - i.e. how easily and quickly can you teach/train someone to use it. It is by far, easier and quicker to teach someone how to use external MA than it is to introspect and develop internally-focused MA.




The fact that it is not consistent means it is crap.

It's about efficiency? How to efficiently get your a$$ whopped and knocked out? If so then I agree.

Quote:

Since you don't know how it works, or how to make it work, much less what IT is, of course it doesn't work for you. But saying that it is inconsistent, unreliable, or other BS doesn't mean that it doesn't work. Certainly doesn't invalidate it - you just need more "live" data.




More incoherent double talk about why your life's work still hasn't pushed the penny across the table.

I ask again:

Why do you dedicate your life teaching and training in something that is not absolute and then portray it as being something you can apply martially?

Why would the old Okinawan masters slam their fists onto a makiwara post well into their old age if they could just develop their chi in a combative way?

Why do the Shaolin monks spend time beating their bodies as part of iron body training when they could just spend their entire existence cultivating their chi to a point where they can stop aggressors with a simple jolt of energy?
_________________________
"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

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#370844 - 11/19/07 09:32 PM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Sure, but my point is that knowledge of ki is not necessary or intrinsic to those demos. Physics can do the same thing.


Which is precisely my point...

Quote:

The person doesn't appear to be applying anything. Unless you were talking about the first thirty seconds of that video, which looked like Aikido to me. But even that part was physical technique, things that can be done without ki. IMHO.


Yes, but if he doesn't APPEAR to be doing anything... WHAT is he doing? Analyze HOW he's doing it... I agree, physical technique can be done WITH or without ki. BUT that depends on how you define and understand ki - doesn't it? You follow?

Quote:

Seems difficult to anyone to clarify, doesn't it? That kind of ambuguity of definition makes it easy to make it seem like people may not know what it is they are talking about.


Remember, Chinese is a contextual language. The same ideogram can have several meanings - just like how certain words in the English language can have several meanings. The various meanings that we would be interested in, in a martial context, is "force" - of which "pressure", "gravity", "vectors", "momentum", "leverage" are all UNAMBIGUOUS physical terms relating to "force" that we are all familiar with.

Quote:

Are we still talking about that first video? After the opening section, there are no physics involved. If you are talking about some of the other demos like the bed of nails thing, that is a trick using surface area to spread the weight over many nails. Ask the guy to lie on a bed of ONE nail.... Board and brick-breaking are accomplished through similar concept in reverse (focusing impact area), along with impulse (duration of impact), etc. Physics concepts.


It's ALL physics... even after the opening section.... (ignore the bunny hopping antics - that's rubbish) So, I now ask you... what then is "ki"?

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#370845 - 11/19/07 09:34 PM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: Saisho]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA


Quote:

Ka




Man, you just made my whole night.

"Go then....there are other worlds than these."
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#370846 - 11/19/07 09:45 PM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: Raul Perez]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

No. It was derived from Ti (Indigenous Okinawan Fighting Method), and it was mixed with the Hard system of Chu'an Fa during the china trade. And it was then integrated with Japanese bujutsu during the occupation by the Satsuma clan. Kara-te had many influences and was not "derived" from a single budhist meditation method.


And this hard system of quan fa originated from where, with what influences? Are you absolutely, positively certain that some of the exercises in karate are not derived (as in developed understanding and applied knowledge) from Buddhist qigong methods?

Quote:

The fact that it is not consistent means it is crap. It's about efficiency? How to efficiently get your a$$ whopped and knocked out? If so then I agree.



This is of course YOUR learned ignorant perspective. If you read more closely into what I wrote, you would realize I was indicating quite the opposite.

Quote:

Why do you dedicate your life teaching and training in something that is not absolute and then portray it as being something you can apply martially?


I can apply and have applied it martially. Just because you can't doesn't make it invalid.

Quote:

Why would the old Okinawan masters slam their fists onto a makiwara post well into their old age if they could just develop their chi in a combative way?


If you knew anything about qi, you would of course know that makiwara training and other hojo undo is basically aspects of qigong training. The ignorance is astounding.

Quote:

Why do the Shaolin monks spend time beating their bodies as part of iron body training when they could just spend their entire existence cultivating their chi to a point where they can stop aggressors with a simple jolt of energy?


Again, the level of ignorance is astounding.

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#370847 - 11/19/07 09:51 PM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Which is precisely my point...




Sorry, you lost me there.

Quote:

Yes, but if he doesn't APPEAR to be doing anything... WHAT is he doing? Analyze HOW he's doing it... I agree, physical technique can be done WITH or without ki. BUT that depends on how you define and understand ki - doesn't it? You follow?




Sorry, I guess I'm not being clear. I don't think he is doing anything but maybe group hypnosis. Nothing physical that could be replicated on anyone that didn't believe in the trick to begin with.

Quote:

It's ALL physics... even after the opening section.... (ignore the bunny hopping antics - that's rubbish) So, I now ask you... what then is "ki"?




Well again, it could be anything in context, I guess. But I'll go ahead and throw my thoughts out for you to blast way on.

Ki, as related to martial arts, seems to be the physical dynamic between two opponents. Encompassing mostly physics, as I see it.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#370848 - 11/19/07 10:01 PM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Sorry, you lost me there.


It's ALL physics?

Quote:

Sorry, I guess I'm not being clear. I don't think he is doing anything but maybe group hypnosis. Nothing physical that could be replicated on anyone that didn't believe in the trick to begin with.


No, it's not group hypnosis... although his students should be soundly whipped for acting so. He is clearly demonstrating a physical skill. I know it is hard to see if you haven't see/felt it. The way it works is simple. It's the same thing as the exercise as I described in the Chi, Shoes and Metal Parts thread. It's to do with redirection of forces - input force, reaction force.

Quote:

Ki, as related to martial arts, seems to be the physical dynamic between two opponents. Encompassing mostly physics, as I see it.


So what's so hard to believe? Does "ki" exist? I'll give you a clue. You can't ai-ki with inanimate objects, coz they have no ki. You can't ai-ki with someone who is simply standing there not attacking you.

Like Tony (Saisho) said, ki/chi/ka... it's just a word. We could call it "kaka" if you like. Does it invalidate its "existence" simply because we now refer to it as "kaka"?

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#370849 - 11/19/07 10:33 PM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: BrianS]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
A man born blind comes to me and asks me "What is this thing called green?" How does someone describe the color green to someone who was born blind? One uses analogies. So I say,"The color green is like soft music." "Oh," he says "like soft music." "Yes" I say "soothing like soft music". So a second blind man comes to me and asks me "What is the color green". I tell him "it's something soft like satin,very soft and soothing to the touch". So the next day I notice that the too blind men are bashing each other over the head with bottles. One is saying "it's soft like music": and the other is saying, "It's soft like satin". And on it goes. Neither of them knows what they are talking about, because if they did they'd shut up. It's that bad, it really is. It's even worse, because one day you give the blind man his sight, and he sitting in a garden, and hes looking all around him, and you say to him, "Well, now you know what the color green is." And he answers, "Thats true. I heard some of it this morning!"

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#370850 - 11/19/07 11:05 PM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: eyrie]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
LOL Oldman!!

Quote:

And this hard system of quan fa originated from where, with what influences? Are you absolutely, positively certain that some of the exercises in karate are not derived (as in developed understanding and applied knowledge) from Buddhist qigong methods?





Are you SURE they are?

Quote:

This is of course YOUR learned ignorant perspective. If you read more closely into what I wrote, you would realize I was indicating quite the opposite.





So his perspective is ignorant because it's different than yours? Which is not explainable or proveable to other people than chi students?

Quote:

I can apply and have applied it martially. Just because you can't doesn't make it invalid.




When will someone show us this? When oh when???

Quote:

If you knew anything about qi, you would of course know that makiwara training and other hojo undo is basically aspects of qigong training. The ignorance is astounding.





More personal attacks on all of uS ignorant folks.....I feel loved.

Quote:

Again, the level of ignorance is astounding.




Are you talking about the video's?

Can anyone here say they have been moved without being touched by way of chi/ki/qi/ka/kaka/poopoo?
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#370851 - 11/19/07 11:19 PM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: BrianS]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Well, Brian, can you honestly tell me karate has had NO influences from Shaolin Buddhist practices? Absolutely none whatsoever? That the katas, hojo undo and other aspects of karate training have not been influenced or derived from such practices? That the breathing, stretching, twisting, spiraling movements of sanchin and other kata have no other conceivable basis to their purpose, other than the "obvious" externalities?

As I was just commenting in general... the level of ignorance is simply astounding. If you view that as a personal assault, then perhaps you need to take a good hard look elsewhere.

Or, maybe... just maybe... have I just disrupted your emotional qi from a distance? After all, if you can't touch it, taste it, feel it, see it, hear it... it ain't "real" right?

BTW, I wonder how many more heads oldman's post went over...


Edited by eyrie (11/19/07 11:21 PM)

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