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#370832 - 11/19/07 07:20 PM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: BrianS]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJr2BdUTYkU&feature=related




Garbage. The first 30 seconds to a minute or so looks real enough, but after that........

Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ6p219fVyY&feature=related




Breaking demos, etc are simply tricks that have nothing to do with "ki".

Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZteEs2Hrek&feature=related




"If you try our product.....etc" 'Nuff said.

Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu99GRUUN6Y&feature=related




More garbage.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#370833 - 11/19/07 07:38 PM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Garbage... Breaking demos, etc are simply tricks that have nothing to do with "ki".... More garbage.


You seem pretty certain Matt... perhaps you could clarify what you mean by "garbage" and why these tricks have nothing to do with "ki"?

Better yet, perhaps you could also clarify what is "ki"? And how is it that stuff can be broken on a person, or trucks driven over someone, or people breaking stuff? How does that work... IYO?

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#370834 - 11/19/07 07:45 PM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: eyrie]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Crapola as to the videos that I saw, not a contridiction of my belief in Qi as a life force.

"this is beyond my level of comprehension and ability"... Cute. There are many things beyond my comprehension and even more beyond my ability. Thats a fact of life for every human being on the planet.

Its funny how die hard believers of this mystic ability to project life energy into another to halt an aggressive motion can NOT be tested in a full contact environment. Nay sayers demand proof and all they get is long winded posts and essays on absolutely nothing of martial worth. Every video posted of such an act being pursued in a full contact environment shows the "chi masters" being spanked.

And if SOME were to do it not everyone is affected the same way. In fact some are not affected AT ALL. So what does that tell me? That it is not reliable. Lets be logical... If I connect a punch at full force to my opponents face I will do damage. If I shoot my chi blast at them they may feel it if they are sensitive to such an attack.

True Kara-te is for preserving life. If I want to protect and preserve my life against someone who wishes to end it do I a) utilize methods that causes immediate and lethal damage to my opponent or b) utilize something that fails the test on a routine basis.

I've visited a dojo who claimed many things. NONE OF THEM worked on me. And reasons why were explained away with nonsense. They could not stop my punches and kicks with sound and chi, they could not move me with chi. Can you explain why? I bet you can. My question is why do you dedicate your life teaching and training in something that is not absolute and then portray it as being something you can apply martially?

Humans as a species have existed for well over $2.5 million years just going back to the Paleolithic era. So you are telling me that NOW of all times during the human existence that we have the ability to use life energy in a marital way? Excuse me if I cough up *BS*.

Why would the old Okinawan masters slam their fists onto a makiwara post well into their old age if they could just develop their chi in a combative way?

Why do the Shaolin monks spend time beating their bodies as part of iron body training when they could just spend their entire existence cultivating their chi to a point where they can stop aggressors with a simple jolt of energy?

Why? Because it is not reliable.

If you want to focus your attention to Qi, TCM, and other interests that is fine. But dont pretend and pawn this off as something that is a consistent combat proven martial ability.

While you're staring at the penny on the table hoping to move it with your mind, I'm hitting the bags and applying techniques on a resisting opponent.
_________________________
"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

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#370835 - 11/19/07 07:58 PM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

You seem pretty certain Matt... perhaps you could clarify what you mean by "garbage" and why these tricks have nothing to do with "ki"?




Sure, fair enough. "Garbage" as in not real; exagerrated; false. Nothing to do with ki as in "people that have no knowledge or understanding of ki can do the same tricks".

Quote:

Better yet, perhaps you could also clarify what is "ki"?




Nope - can you? J/K

Quote:

And how is it that stuff can be broken on a person, or trucks driven over someone, or people breaking stuff? How does that work... IYO?




Again, what is being attributed to ki can be done by folks with no knowledge or belief of it. Therfore, "ki" cannot be the only element that enables those types of skills. Some could say ki, some could say physics.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#370836 - 11/19/07 08:21 PM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: Raul Perez]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Crapola as to the videos that I saw, not a contridiction of my belief in Qi as a life force.


So you "believe" Qi === "life force"??? Used in a specific context, qi does imply life force (loosely translated), but from a martial perspective, it's the "force" aspect and what you can do with it that's important. But of course you "knew" that... right?

Quote:

"this is beyond my level of comprehension and ability"... Cute. There are many things beyond my comprehension and even more beyond my ability. Thats a fact of life for every human being on the planet.


Yeah, I meant you can't do it - as in "no way can it be done..." (your words)

Quote:

Its funny how die hard believers of this mystic ability to project life energy into another to halt an aggressive motion can NOT be tested in a full contact environment. Nay sayers demand proof and all they get is long winded posts and essays on absolutely nothing of martial worth. Every video posted of such an act being pursued in a full contact environment shows the "chi masters" being spanked.


It's equally interesting how the critics can't see the martial value in these little tricks - and they are simply "little" tricks - coz they always need more data, more statistics and more evidence.

Quote:

True Kara-te is for preserving life.


"True" kara-te was derived from Shaolin-derived Buddhist practices, practices which involve the esoteric cultivation of qi. So if you're not au fait with such practices, are you practising "true" karate?

Quote:

Humans as a species have existed for well over $2.5 million years just going back to the Paleolithic era. So you are telling me that NOW of all times during the human existence that we have the ability to use life energy in a marital way? Excuse me if I cough up *BS*.


Uh huh... that would be using UP life force in a marital way...

Quote:

Why? Because it is not reliable.


Reliability is not the issue. The issue is one of efficacy and efficiency - i.e. how easily and quickly can you teach/train someone to use it. It is by far, easier and quicker to teach someone how to use external MA than it is to introspect and develop internally-focused MA.

Since you don't know how it works, or how to make it work, much less what IT is, of course it doesn't work for you. But saying that it is inconsistent, unreliable, or other BS doesn't mean that it doesn't work. Certainly doesn't invalidate it - you just need more "live" data.

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#370837 - 11/19/07 08:30 PM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Sure, fair enough. "Garbage" as in not real; exagerrated; false. Nothing to do with ki as in "people that have no knowledge or understanding of ki can do the same tricks".


Your 2nd sentence is true to an extent - you don't need to know or understand it to make it work, but it helps to know and understand what you're doing, no? Otherwise, it's just monkey see, monkey do right? Which part was "garbage"? I'll agree, the dive bunny hopping silliness is garbage, but the person applying - is that part garbage... IYO? Why? Why not?

Quote:

Quote:

Better yet, perhaps you could also clarify what is "ki"?


Nope - can you? J/K


Well, if you can't define "ki" how do you know with any certainty if it is involved or not? Surely, one needs to at least know what one is talking about?

Quote:

Again, what is being attributed to ki can be done by folks with no knowledge or belief of it. Therfore, "ki" cannot be the only element that enables those types of skills. Some could say ki, some could say physics.


I agree. You don't need knowledge or belief in ki to explain how this works. Analyze it from a physics perspective. How does that work?

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#370838 - 11/19/07 09:10 PM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Your 2nd sentence is true to an extent - you don't need to know or understand it to make it work, but it helps to know and understand what you're doing, no? Otherwise, it's just monkey see, monkey do right?




Sure, but my point is that knowledge of ki is not necessary or intrinsic to those demos. Physics can do the same thing.

Quote:

Which part was "garbage"? I'll agree, the dive bunny hopping silliness is garbage, but the person applying - is that part garbage... IYO? Why? Why not?




Sorry, don't understand the question. The person doesn't appear to be applying anything. Unless you were talking about the first thirty seconds of that video, which looked like Aikido to me. But even that part was physical technique, things that can be done without ki. IMHO.

Quote:

Well, if you can't define "ki" how do you know with any certainty if it is involved or not? Surely, one needs to at least know what one is talking about?




Well......

Quote:

Used in a specific context, qi does imply life force (loosely translated), but from a martial perspective, it's the "force" aspect and what you can do with it that's important.




Seems difficult to anyone to clarify, doesn't it? That kind of ambuguity of definition makes it easy to make it seem like people may not know what it is they are talking about.

One of the reasons I prefer to use the language of physics (what little I know), since it's much more precise.

Quote:

I agree. You don't need knowledge or belief in ki to explain how this works. Analyze it from a physics perspective. How does that work?




Are we still talking about that first video? After the opening section, there are no physics involved. If you are talking about some of the other demos like the bed of nails thing, that is a trick using surface area to spread the weight over many nails. Ask the guy to lie on a bed of ONE nail.

Board and brick-breaking are accomplished through similar concept in reverse (focusing impact area), along with impulse (duration of impact), etc. Physics concepts.

Related link for breaking demo info -

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15948442

DISCLAIMER: MattJ is not a physicist. MattJ did not go to college, and barely graduated high-school.


Edited by MattJ (11/19/07 09:14 PM)
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#370839 - 11/19/07 09:16 PM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: wristtwister]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Harlan,
all these "chi wars" are started by people who don't know anything about it, don't believe in it, and are too lazy to go get some training to see if what they're "against" exists or not. They can't learn it in 5 minutes or google it and get the information they need, so it's "bunk" to them.




Why would you turn it into a personal attack? It's not. It's simply an observation of what people actually believe in. You see the same thing in different contexts throughout life,but never any evidence of anything provable.

Quote:

We have Aikido students all the time that take months or years to ever understand what ki is and how to use it. Just to save time, we're changing the name of Aikido to "Ai-that stuff that doesn't exist- do"... then, we'll change the training to only use strength. When the techniques don't work, we'll say... "try this... ". They still won't understand it, but at least the techniques will work again...






How about A-chi-do?

Techniques do work,when you actually touch people.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#370840 - 11/19/07 09:19 PM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: BrianS]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Do any of the internal-trained folk have/can find any chi-related videos that they think are good or representative of good chi/ki application? Google, YouTube, etc? Anything?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#370841 - 11/19/07 09:22 PM Re: more chi power!!! [Re: MattJ]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Matt,

You can't just circulate that secret stuff on the internet!!!

The chi-force police will make you go in to jumping convulsions through your cell phones.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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