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#370733 - 11/18/07 09:07 PM Stationary training
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
as in staying in one posture for an extended amount of time.

I remember doing these drills/exercises, we used to stop and hold at every sequence in kata and just stay in the position for several minutes, then proceed to the next...absolutely exhasting. I kindof forgot about those drills, but was recently reminded of their importance.

somehow, your body just figures out on it's own how to maintain after the major muscles become fatigued....so then the smaller structures start becoming more important as they compensate and make those micro adjustments needed to conserve and maintain.

I don't know the technical terms of whats going on, but I do think it's about a body learning it's own efficiency.


If you are willing to share your thoughts on stationary training from whichever Art point-of-view, it's appreciated.

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#370734 - 11/19/07 01:12 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

as in staying in one posture for an extended amount of time.

I remember doing these drills/exercises, we used to stop and hold at every sequence in kata and just stay in the position for several minutes, then proceed to the next...absolutely exhasting. I kindof forgot about those drills, but was recently reminded of their importance.

somehow, your body just figures out on it's own how to maintain after the major muscles become fatigued....so then the smaller structures start becoming more important as they compensate and make those micro adjustments needed to conserve and maintain.

I don't know the technical terms of whats going on, but I do think it's about a body learning it's own efficiency.


If you are willing to share your thoughts on stationary training from whichever Art point-of-view, it's appreciated.




An Isometric form of training?

Isometrics are thousands of years old and examples can be found in the static holds in certain branches of yoga or Chinese martial arts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isometric_exercise



Edited by jude33 (11/19/07 01:23 AM)

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#370735 - 11/19/07 01:23 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
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yes. Is there any difference in terms of IMA?

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#370736 - 11/19/07 01:38 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

yes. Is there any difference in terms of IMA?




I can only comment by observation of what I think I see in the IMA. I cant comment from the view of a practioner.
Its seems to me that IMA might be mainly isometric. But there again looking at the guys on okinawa (and indeed other places) the way they train they are also incorperating isometrics.

Jude

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#370737 - 12/10/07 02:01 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Quote:

yes. Is there any difference in terms of IMA?




The silence is deafening
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#370738 - 12/26/07 09:21 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
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Quote:

Quote:

yes. Is there any difference in terms of IMA?




The silence is deafening




So if the silence is deafening it looks like Jude has to work it out his self.

I guess the reason is;

Part of the training to control the mind
By staying in that one stance and concentrating on the correct body line up and pushing out all other thoughts it is a form of meditation.
It is practicing using the conscouise part of the mind.
Pushing out all other thoughts.

If (subject to physical conditioning) it begins to hurt then the mind again should blank the discomfort.

And it is a form of isometric training.

The chi part. By thinking about chi being around the navel level the bodyweight should be kept low.
This is the chi explanation part.
The body weight is low and held in isometric contraction of the muscles of the lower body.

Chi is energy.
The energy is the Flow that begins with thought and ends up with the muscles being held in contraction.

Wish some of you guys would point score elsewhere and
discuss topics at hand.

Jude

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#370739 - 12/30/07 08:59 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: jude33]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
No Jude,

I don't know much about isometrics but I don't think that has anything to do with it. Forget about mediation and 'chi' - I think it is terribly misleading.

The question you should be asking is WHAT exactly are you training when in a stationary posture.

ButterflyPalm has mentioned this before in another thread - I'm certain that at the time he mentioned it, it has gone over many people's heads. For brevity, and I paraphrase, he essentially said to stand and imagine like you're stuck in thick mud (or really dense air) and you are trying to move but can't move - but to do so in a relaxed manner, without straining to contract your muscles. That's why some people say taiji is like "swimming on land".

So, from a casual observer's POV, it "looks" like "meditation" but it's not. Yes, you are using your mind to control/restrain your body, and your mind will fatigue long before your body does.

Forget about chi as "energy". It's about manipulating forces - gravity is a force, the reaction of the gravity on the ground is a force, tension is a force, pressure is a force. That's the simplistic view, but it's a heck lot more complicated than that. It's certainly a lot more complicated than simply letting your body figure out how to maintain "efficient" postural alignment beyond the point of muscle fatigue... you'd be surprise how much tension you hold in parts of your body just trying to maintain a specific posture, and a large part of beginning to learn to feel this, is to relax.

HTH

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#370740 - 12/30/07 10:54 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
One thing i've been shown which is interesting to do is stand in "holding the tree" while a partner gradually pushes on your shoulder, before long you can possibly get it to the point where they can't move you, and you really feel the connections.

You can take a bo (or something similar) and put it against the wall with the other end against your solar plexus and fix your posture in sanchin-kamae, sounds silly but it really does some eye opening things.

If you are into this kind of stuff I highly suggest Kris Wilder's The Way Of Sanchin kata, I know it's odd to mention in this forum but I notice you are a Goju guy as well.

Kris has a number of different drills and "tests" in the book that really bring this kind of training alive, and I can say that after training with Kris and his guys their Karate I feel has an extra dimension due to this kind of training, whether you want to call it 'internal' or not.

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing/books/external/way-of-sanchin-kata


I used to think this kind of training was of limited value, but after seeing some of the results it's defnitely something i'm trying to concentrate on more.

There are a number of books on qigong also from YMAA that give all the basic postures and visualizations, i'd gotten something out of these as well, worth looking into.

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#370741 - 01/17/08 01:20 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I'll try to use a 'style-agnostic' example of what I meant by the thread opening, but I realize it applies in a crude way...

in the military, particularly basic and early training - there is alot of: getting exhasted thru hours of various physical drills, then suddenly standing in place, holding a formal position (parade rest) for what felt like hours at a time. you aren't allowed to move - eyes straight and hold the position. your body 'learns' very quickly the micro-adjustments necessary to stay up in the most efficient mannor. it's not a conscious effort - it just happens and falls into place after the stage of jittering, shifting and fatigue spasms.
after a while, your body remembers that efficient position right away instead of wasting energy trying to re-find it....not to mention the internal structures strengthen to support that position.

not sure what the military application of the particular position of 'parade rest' is, other than dicipline - but the idea is the same if applied to shooting while fatigued. after a while, your body learns to hold the optimal position while aiming a rifle for a long period of time, when high-alert guarding in shifts a dug-in position over-night for instance.

most do the same kind of 'stance holding' in various MA's - The positions vary between arts, and the explaination of what is going on and what is accomplished, etc. but isn't it really just physically learning efficiency of some strategic position thru fatigue? the idea being, after a while, your body just locks in at will to the learned efficiency.

isn't it just that simple, and all the rest of the language and visualizations used for such an exercise just creating layers around that simplicity?

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#370742 - 01/17/08 05:21 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

...isn't it just that simple, and all the rest of the language and visualizations used for such an exercise just creating layers around that simplicity?




No it's not.

If you really, really, really want to know why it's not and why there are a lot more layers than you can ever imagine, then, all I am going to say is, DO the 'arbitrary initiation ritual' ('AIR training') EVERYDAY for at least 4-6 months, THEN AND ONLY THEN incorporate what you have "felt" in your AIR training into your "parade rest" stances. You will not see things the same anymore.

An end to words have to happen somewhere and the DOING has to start IF you are really, really, really interested to find IT.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#370743 - 01/17/08 07:59 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
you assume that anyone who didn't/doesn't drink from your same cup, hasn't had anything good to drink.

whereas, what may really be going on is that it's you who have limited your range by thinking there is only one way: the way you learned.

so tell us in exact language what has your arbitrary rituals done for you? what was your particular one? smiling with your eyes closed while meditating....if I remember correctly.

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#370744 - 01/17/08 08:06 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
I suggest...FA Celebrity Deathmatch to explore this topic! LOL!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PNYcc3qAKVs

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#370745 - 01/17/08 08:18 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: harlan]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
let me guess. I am Rowling? --- as chi has been known to border on the magical? --- though I don't see Ed as King; I am sure Ed is not as frightful in real life as Stephen King himself is said to be afraid of the dark as he wrote all his novels with the lights on.

Thanks for the comic relief.
_________________________
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#370746 - 01/17/08 08:23 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Just planting seeds.

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#370747 - 01/17/08 08:32 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: harlan]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Don't forget to water it with a large dose of blind faith.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#370748 - 01/17/08 08:38 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
BP: are you EVER going to turn on the PM function here?

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#370749 - 01/17/08 08:54 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: harlan]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Sorry, I am highly allergic to psychic energy attacks sent via the PM, especially when I am smiling with my eyes closed.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#370750 - 01/17/08 09:34 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PNYcc3qAKVs



lol...gotta love the youtube comments - since BP is assuming he's Rowling, this one may apply:

Quote:


resumedsr

jk looks skinny in this cartoon. but really she has a huge ass.



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#370751 - 01/17/08 09:39 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
*sigh* It was just in fun. Sorry BP...didn't mean to annoy.

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#370752 - 01/17/08 09:50 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

I am sure Ed is not as frightful in real life as Stephen King himself is said to be afraid of the dark as he wrote all his novels with the lights on.




thats ok harlan, I'm sure BP was just kidding.

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#370753 - 01/17/08 10:19 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

isn't it just that simple, and all the rest of the language and visualizations used for such an exercise just creating layers around that simplicity?


Even though I know nothing, compared to BP, I second what BP said... if ONLY it were THAT simple....

Quote:

you assume that anyone who didn't/doesn't drink from your same cup, hasn't had anything good to drink.

whereas, what may really be going on is that it's you who have limited your range by thinking there is only one way: the way you learned.


Perhaps, it's not the cup, but what you THINK you're both drinking - it's not the same thing. As far as there being only one way - true, there are many ways and many variations of the same basic principles, including the language used to describe it. So far, the language you're using doesn't even remotely conform to even my limited understanding of what is going on, what is being trained and how to train it. So I'm not entirely sure that you understand what you think you know about it.

For starters, when in stationary stance, what are you specifically training? What things are you doing in that regard? What are you doing with your breath, and breath pressure? Where are you directing gravity and ground force to? What are the 6 cardinal directions and why are they important? What is being trained here? What is opening and closing? What is the function of the "kua"/pelvic girdle? How does stationary training develop power generation? From where is power generated?

So, is it as simple as letting your body self-adjust following muscle fatigue and failure? Just some things for you to think about... and these are just the basic questions for you to start with...


Edited by eyrie (01/17/08 10:23 PM)

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#370754 - 01/18/08 01:52 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I don't suppose you'd know the difference of isometrics to IMA stationary training.

good basic IMA questions though, maybe someone will address them for you....because I'm sure you won't answer your own questions.


anyway - what are the technical goals for stationary training? Doesn't it ultimitely come down to assist-training towards absorbing instant efficient structure at any given time?


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#370755 - 01/18/08 06:07 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: eyrie]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Even though I know nothing, compared to BP,




Please, Eyrie, I blush easily
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#370756 - 01/18/08 05:26 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
In my (fairly limited) exposure to this kind of training, I think the visualizations and image repititions make a huge difference, I can't explain why but they do.

You could just stand in a neutral posture, but it doesn't become conditioning that will change your body until you add in the visualizations and the image-concept things.

I haven't been doing this type of thing that long, but the image stuff has made a huge difference in my Karate.

Also from what i've seen while the external training methods are different, it seems like for the most part the visualization techniques and concepts seem to be common from art to art.

EDIT: Just remembered there is a conversation going on on e-budo on this subject:
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38747




Edited by Zach_Zinn (01/18/08 05:30 PM)

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#370757 - 01/18/08 08:18 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: Zach_Zinn]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I look at visualizations and imagery as a mind/intent training device. There is nothing old or new about this type of training - high performance athletes and sports people, self-help and motivational coaches use it all the time - BUT, not in the same way as how or what it is used in IMA training.

Different visualizations work for different people, but the purpose is the same. The questions one should be asking are what is the purpose? What is the mind/intent actively (consciously/sub-consciously) doing?

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#370758 - 01/18/08 11:28 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: eyrie]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
What does it actually do I don't know, honestly in MA terms it all seems so...anachronistic anyway. I suppose you could simply subsribe to the notion that you are directing internal forces to do external things, but honestly that answer seems to fall short of the mark for me.

For my own part I don't doubt there is some explanation in physics of what people with "bodyskills" can do, training it seems to require one to use this imagery and such to acheive the results regardless.

Check out the e-budo thread, one of the themes there is that these skills are not neccessarily art-specific, but rather can and are found in a variety of martial arts.

Personally i'm just happy that i've been shown a bit of this stuff and that it's really giving me a different perspective on what I do.

Why do you think it works?

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#370759 - 01/18/08 11:58 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: Zach_Zinn]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Why do you think it works?




Why do you have a penile erection when you THINK or VISUALISE something sexy?
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#370760 - 01/19/08 01:36 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Uh... it doesn't have to be sexy (by some accepted mainstream definition), nor do I have to think or visualize it to have a "spontaneous" response. In fact, I'm having one right now...

BTW, Zach, I have followed that thread with interest. I am familiar with Dan and where he's coming from. Sure, the bodyskills are found in a cross-section of asian MAs, and I would qualify, TO VARYING DEGREES.

And considering the veil of secrecy surrounding the development of such bodyskills, the questions you have to ask yourself are - Am I getting the full picture? And does my teacher have the full picture? If so, am I still getting the full picture? If not, why not? If you take stock of what Dan is saying, the answer is a flat "no" to the above. So, I find it quite ludicrous for some people to THINK that they already "do" this or "know" this, to come on here and denigrate the few that have a little bit more experience in this.... not that I have any experience or knowledge myself.

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#370761 - 01/19/08 07:57 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: eyrie]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
The point (no pun) I was trying to make in answer to Zach is, WHAT and HOW you visualise will have a subtle and definitive response on and in your body. AND when this form of visualisation is done or coupled with the body being HELD in a specific structure, with just the required amount of tension on different parts of the body in different postures, the "circuit" is complete and the MIND and the BODY will begin to instantly respond to each others SIGNALS; THAT's WHEN the chi will start to flow CONSCIOUSLY because by now your body is, to put it simply, IN TUNE with the thoughts happening in your mind. From here on it's a matter of amplification and magnification.

That is STEP ONE.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#370762 - 01/19/08 02:50 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
what do you personally visualize when doing stationary training? ...or maybe I wouldn't want to know.

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#370763 - 01/19/08 03:35 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: eyrie]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Huh? I'm not one you are accusing of denigrating anything am I?

I don't think I "have" anything, I train with Karate people who do have some of these skills, I have no idea how they stack up with specifically "internal" styles, or people who's 'bread and butter' is mainly this stuff, and I don't really care to be honest.

What i've been shown is great for me because it's directly functional to the art I do, as most of the training revolves around Sanchin kata. It's had a huge effect on my training and how I use my body and i'm glad I have the opportunity to learn it.

Not trying to insult anyone or say i've been shown the "holy grail" by any stretch of the imagination.

I have been around long enough though to know when someone can and cannot do these things, so while the e-budo thread is interesting, I am (believe it or not) capable of answering the questions posed in it in terms of my own training pretty easily.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (01/19/08 03:50 PM)

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#370764 - 01/19/08 08:16 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: Zach_Zinn]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
It wasn't directed at you mate...

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#370765 - 01/19/08 08:22 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

The point (no pun) I was trying to make in answer to Zach is...


I was merely jesting...

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#370766 - 01/19/08 10:22 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: eyrie]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Ah ok good, just making sure, one never knows given how controversial these discussions can get.

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#370767 - 01/20/08 12:15 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

what do you personally visualize when doing stationary training? ...or maybe I wouldn't want to know.




Before I even got to the stationary training part, I needed to do Step One of Step One, which was, you guessed it, "arbitrary initiation ritual" ('AIR') AND BETWEEN 'AIR' and the stationary training part there are a FEW MORE steps.

So you see the problem? It is a step-by-step process and each step WILL give you a certain effect on your body and the next step builds on the one before and by the time you reach the stationary part, your posture is no longer a mere physical structure maintained by an enforced attempt to keep the body "in place" or "in parade rest" BUT THAT YOUR CHI IS DOING IT FOR YOU. The test that this is happening is to be able to hold your hands out in the crucifix position for one hour and at the end of it feels no muscular pain whatsoever or any kind of discomfort in any part of the body. (You are in effect consciously doing self-acupuncture) During my much younger days, I've won quite a few bets with some disbelieving friends. I am not saying this is the whole purpose of the training, just to show one of the fun effects of correct training.

As I've said before, this is only the "flour" What you wish to do with it from here on, whether for medical or martial purposes, is up to you. It can be applied to your sanchin & tensho kata which will now "feel" completely different because now you have the chi moving through your tensed muscles and this is when the 'hard' & 'soft' TRULY melt together 100% of the time, whereas previously it was just tensed muscles (as in sanchin) or pretended softness (as in tensho), nothing more. Of course just being able to do the sanchin/tensho kata without the chi part has it's benefits, but it is not complete or meant to be. That was why I said the Okinawans got only the external part of these kata and hence my (probably misunderstood ) comments on Hopkins's article on Tensho kata sometime back.

Most internal martial artists apply the "flour" to the Tai Chi, Bagua, Hsing Yi Form and the sensitivity gained is further developed in Tui Shou (push hand) But some more advanced people eliminate the Form altogether as done in Yi Chuan. It used to be Hsing Yi Chuan (Form Mind Fist), the Hsing being the Form and when the Form (Hsing) was eliminated, what was left was simply Yi Chuan (Mind Fist) The idea being that if you needed to have a Form, you essentially became a prisoner of that Form and you needed to depend on muscle memory to bring out your techniques. Without the Form, the mind is free to respond as the situation demands. Now, to reach this stage of development, your body has to depend entirely on a very high degree of control, manipulation AND PROJECTION of your chi. Not many people has reached this stage of development where the oft-quoted phrase "I know your move before you even make it" takes on a real meaning.

Now a word on "the other" IMA which it is actually 'external' IMA. This is IMA for people who do not have a highly developed control and projection of their chi and so needed to depend on structure, bio-mechanics, the instantaneous coupling of the skeletal structure to produce short sharp explosive force. A low development of the chi here helps because a higher than normal degree of internalistaion will let you have a "better internal feel" and therefore control of your skeletal structure (a kind of advanced parade rest) This where the confusion lies when people say the "chi" is not really necessary or just a mental construct in IMA training. Yes, if you are talking only about external IMA. Many "masters" (east & west) brought in the 'idea' of chi in their teaching when they themselves are only half-way there and thus confused their students. You need only to ask the question, "Can you teach me the actual method to get the chi to consciously move in my body at will?" and wait for the answer.

It is fair to ask me where I am at in all of this. I am at the stage where I can at will and instantaneously project my chi far enough so that I am on well the way to be able to truly understand the abovementioned phrase "I know your move before you even make it and when you do move, you run into my chi before you can get any closer" One thing good about this is I can do this even when I am 80 years old. Wish me luck.
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#370768 - 01/20/08 01:06 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
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You are saying you have a faster reaction time than people with the same amount of years non-'real IMA' based training experience - the direct cause of your superior swiftness is due to the visualization of projecting your chi which enables you to sense the immediate future of a soon-to-be attacker's intent. is that in effect fair to say?


p.s. I wish everyone luck that we all make it to 80 without needing to wear a diaper.


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#370769 - 01/20/08 01:34 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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I don't think the Okinawans got only the external part of Tensho or Sanchin, I think that's your perception from watching too many musclebound guys huff and puff their way through Sanchin, there are plenty of people training these kata who get the deeper parts, and honestly you failure to know this just points to your not being exposed to good Karate teachers, not anything else.

The reason to train Sanchin and Tensho is to change your body for martial arts, this doesn't mean having big muscles or popping veins out of your head.

So yeah...a whole lot of conjecture and throwing about of the term Chi, neat.

Quote:


It is fair to ask me where I am at in all of this. I am at the stage where I can at will and instantaneously project my chi far enough so that I am on well the way to be able to truly understand the abovementioned phrase "I know your move before you even make it and when you do move, you run into my chi before you can get any closer" One thing good about this is I can do this even when I am 80 years old. Wish me luck.





Are you serious?

EDIT: Just noticed in your profile that "chi development" is a hobby of yours....so i'm gonna take that as a yes.

Out of curiousity, how much time did you spend training in Goju? If the answer is "none to very little" why would anyone care about your view on what Sanchin or Tensho represent?

If the answer is something else, go on about Sanchin and Tensho, as i'd love to hear someone knowledgable on the "internal" aspects of these kata explain.

Fact is there are guys with these skills in a variety of MA, I personally think they have probably been a part of many MA for a while. They may very well have originated in China, but I don't think that Chinese MA have a monopoly on them.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (01/20/08 01:45 AM)

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#370770 - 01/20/08 01:46 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Zach_Zinn]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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I don't do any of the Okinawan arts.

If I am mistaken, I do apologise.
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#370771 - 01/20/08 01:54 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
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"I'll rather be happy than right, anytime."

well...at least you got your first choice.

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#370772 - 01/20/08 02:00 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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#370773 - 01/20/08 05:34 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
eyrie Offline
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Quote:

If the answer is "none to very little" why would anyone care about your view on what Sanchin or Tensho represent?


The principles of qigong (breath work) are essentially the same - whether it be sanchin, tensho, baduanjin, taiji or whatever. The variations are simply a preferred/"best" way of doing it.

Quote:

They may very well have originated in China, but I don't think that Chinese MA have a monopoly on them.


I believe the origins are Indian, or perhaps even earlier from the Middle East.

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#370774 - 01/20/08 07:13 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: eyrie]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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...or perhaps even earlier, from Atlantis. I am not being funny. If 'chi' exists in human beings, and it can be controlled, manipulated and projected beyond the confines of the body (of which I am sure because I can do it) then there is nothing to suggest that humans living on the island of Atlantis (if it existed as told by the ancient Egyptians to, I think it was Plato? or was it Herodotus?) would not have also discovered it way before the ancient Indians/Chinese.

You see, we at this particular Age of material technology has depended so much on external machines to do our work for us that we have gone to the other extreme of neglecting to purposefully develop and utlise the latent powers of the mind/body continuum. It probably would have gone a long time ago if not for ancient martial artists and Yogis who kept developing it for their own devises.

Just imagine what we can achieve if we are to develop our minds to the same extent as we are now pursuing in our present obsession with computer technology. And also the problem with scientists studying these "powers of the human mind" is that they don't practice it themselves and so has an experiential deficit in conducting their experiments the results of which are bound to be puzzling to them and given the problem of language and culture between scientists and subjects, the problem is compounded.

After a couple of millenia of non-use of these areas of the mind, it stands to reason that the human mind will undergo collective atrophy. But of course the other part, the mechanico/utilitarian part will continue to develop and thus chart a particular path towards which human destiny appears now to be heading. It's not good or bad, it's just the way things have turned out.
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#370775 - 01/20/08 12:09 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
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one problem: being in tune with the mysterious ancient powers got them a 30-year life expectancy.

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#370776 - 01/20/08 06:30 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
eyrie Offline
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Quote:

I think it was Plato? or was it Herodotus?


Plato.

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#370777 - 01/20/08 07:14 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
MattJ Offline
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Quote by Butterflypalm -

Quote:

After a couple of millenia of non-use of these areas of the mind, it stands to reason that the human mind will undergo collective atrophy.




Interesting. In all seriousness, do you feel that the internet is a collective use or non-use of the mind? Perhaps (again, in all seriousness) "chi" may end up taking a different form, from the way the "collective mind" is being implemented. Perhaps the internet IS the "collective mind".
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#370778 - 01/20/08 07:31 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: eyrie]
eyrie Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

I think it was Plato? or was it Herodotus?


Plato.


Oops... it was Herodotus.

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#370779 - 01/20/08 11:30 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: MattJ]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Ed,

Quote:

one problem: being in tune with the mysterious ancient powers got them a 30-year life expectancy




You must have once been an Atlantean to have known that. Were you the Atlantean Statistician General who kept records of life expectancies?. This probably accounts for your continuing interest in this area in your present incarnation.


Matt,

Quote:

Perhaps the internet IS the "collective mind"




Then we are doomed.


Eyrie,

Are you ABSOLUTELY sure?



--------------------
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#370780 - 01/21/08 12:17 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
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by deductive reasoning and then rounding to an even number. here's how:

according to Plato (yes Plato was the first to write about Atlantis), the island sank about 10,000 BCE.

That puts it in the Paleolithic era....stones tools and the beginning of argiculture. based on the archeology, the average lifespan was about 30 for humans at that time.

that number stays pretty much the same (if you don't average in age at death due to war) all the way until the 19th century...coincidently, with the introduction and spread of western science. cool huh?

everyone including the Chinese can thank western medicine. Cultivating a good chi circulation or prayer or tapping into a life force apparently wasn't enough to doubling life expectancy until the invention of the microscope.
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/english/200010/20/eng20001020_53183.html

credit where it's due, I always say. critical thinking allowed us to live nearly triple the lifespan within a few generations - whereas magical thinking and superstition sorta kept us steady for millenia at the same amount of years as a monkey.

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#370781 - 01/21/08 12:35 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Thank you...ehh...western science, and I say this most sincerely.
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#370782 - 01/21/08 12:57 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
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what? no 'downside of science' rebuttal? I can think of one:

as a continuing species, would we rather live a steady 30 years average each and have generations continue for millions more years....or....would we want technology to help us to live increasingly longer while at the same time the same growth in technology increases the chances of wiping all of us out instantly?


yeah....so anyway, stationary training...

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#370783 - 01/21/08 02:59 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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I don't neccessarily subscribe to this concept...but I thought i'd throw it out there.

Alot of the Daoist stuff claims and as far as I know has claimed for a long time to lengthen one's lifepsan, I have no idea how much documented evidence there is of these guys living longer than normal, and even if they did...so do alot of Karate guys, and alot of Yogis, and whatever.

Obviously no tradition could claim to enhance longevity in the way western science has, but I personally don't discount the effect that Qigong and related practices have on health, nor would I dismiss out of hand TCM and related practices as purely superstition or magical thinking.

On a martial arts level, dismissing internal work entirely is as silly to me as someone saying they can fight by projecting their Chi. No offense Butterfly Palm.

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#370784 - 01/21/08 03:23 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Funny, I actually wanted to say precisely that (well, not so in such fine succinct phrases) but I happened to be at a public internet centre and my neighbor's screen had something which caught my peripheral vision and I was momentarily distracted and, very much against my general character, opted for an easy way out, which in no way, I hasten to add, dilute the sincerity of my previous post.

Yeah, what about stationary training that you do not know already and to which I've augmented with a life-time's worth of material which, in the olden days, a student would hope to get from a master by kneelling two days and two nights in a blizzard?

But with global warming and climate change.....
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#370785 - 01/21/08 03:28 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Zach_Zinn]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Quote:

On a martial arts level, dismissing internal work entirely is as silly to me as someone saying they can fight by projecting their Chi. No offense Butterfly Palm.




...no problem, you are not the first.
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#370786 - 01/21/08 08:27 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
eyrie Offline
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I'm not sure???? There seems to be conflicting information... (that's Internet research for you)....

Apparently, Herodotus (ca. 484 BCE ca. 425 BCE) first made reference to Atlantis (the war between the Athenians and Atlanteans) in his writings on history (disputed - see http://www.eridu.co.uk/Author/atlantis/).

Plato (424/423 BC[a] 348/347 BC), nearly a century later, supposedly adapted the story of Atlantis in his dialogues, Timaeus and Critias. (See http://www.eridu.co.uk/Author/atlantis/ for various criticisms of Plato).

Some further interesting reading... although I can't vouch for its veracity:
http://www.earth-history.com/Atlantis/index.htm
http://www.atlantisquest.com/Writings.html

Sorry to go off-topic... I'll just go back to hugging my tree now...


Edited by eyrie (01/21/08 08:30 AM)

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#370787 - 01/21/08 09:41 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: eyrie]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Quote:

I'll just go back to hugging my tree now...




Thanks for the "conflicting" information. For some unknown reason both the names came to mind almost simultaneously, not sure why. As it turns out, both men had something to do with it. It deserves a thread all on its own.

You said hugging "my" tree; you actually own a tree? Seeing you're in Aust. it'll most likely be an eucalyptus (and I actually got the spelling right at first go too)
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#370788 - 01/21/08 11:43 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
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between this and the thoughtforms discussion, it's as if we need a new thread: "The Aging of Aquarius"

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#370789 - 01/21/08 06:57 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
eyrie Offline
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Quote:

you actually own a tree?


Nah, it's an imaginary ghost gum eucalypt... whilst I'm riding my equally imaginary horse.

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#370790 - 01/22/08 03:57 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Looks like your "Stationary Training" thread has come to a standstill.
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#370791 - 01/22/08 07:37 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: eyrie]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Nah, it's an imaginary ghost gum eucalypt... whilst I'm riding my equally imaginary horse.




Could that be considered one of the side effects of stationary training?
I presume the tree is a dwarf type.

From what I am reading on this thread it seems stationary training might be aimed at gaining control of the conscious mind. Total concentration on a given task.

While training a skill using the part of the brain that is responsible for skill building. The so called muscle memory part.

So what is the next step? (pun was intended) but realy what is the next part after stationary training as regards training the mind?

Observation, visualization and imagination.
I dont suppose the human brain can tell the difference between the three.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (01/22/08 08:00 AM)

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#370792 - 01/22/08 07:44 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Quote:

Looks like your "Stationary Training" thread has come to a standstill.



good one.

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#370793 - 01/22/08 11:36 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: jude33]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Quote:

From what I am reading on this thread it seems stationary training might be aimed at gaining control of the conscious mind.




ehhh...it's actually the other way around.


Quote:

While training a skill using the part of the brain that is responsible for skill building. The so called muscle memory part.




That's true only if you see the training as purely physical, which for someone like you who has no experience of experiencing chi circulation will have to fall back on in any explanation as you have no other way to explain or reference it. That's why I said earlier, there are some steps to go through BEFORE you actually come to the stationary part. If you rush into the stationary part first, it will not mean anything as it is just another physical excersize. That's why you say what you say in the above quote.

Quote:

So what is the next step? (pun was intended) but realy what is the next part after stationary training as regards training the mind?




You start to move; but this time it is no longer just the physical movements alone, but movements with the chi circulating as well. I can't even begin to tell you what a wonderful feeling it is to move with the chi circulating inside you, it literally adds another dimension to any movement you make. You feel that you actually have two bodies, one inside (the chi body) and another outside (the physical body) and it is this body "inside" (the chi body) that you do the chi projection with. It appears to be independent of the "outside" physical body; which is why I don't blame people for saying it is silly as it is impossible to imagine what it's like without any direct experience; like a sexual orgasm for example.

The kind or structure of the movements is not important at all, which is why you see Tai Chi, Hsing Yi and Bagua all have different movements, especially in Tai Chi. I can invent a whole new set of Tai Chi movements and still call it Tai Chi or whatever. The essential question is is the chi consciously circulating or not, whether you are doing Tai Chi, Hsing Yi, Bagua, Sanchin, Sam Chien or Tensho.

The reason you need to move is because you want to train yourself to be able to instantaneously concentrate a greater amount of chi in specific parts of the body and the particular movements in Tai Chi, etc. are designed to do that because the structure/direction/tension of each movement/posture directs your mind (and therefore your chi) to that part of the body. Just like in ordinary non-chi movements, like using a pen to write, your mind is on the hand holding the pen and "forgets" about the rest of the body doesn't it?
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#370794 - 01/22/08 12:49 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
jude33 Offline
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Hi.

Ok.

The part about Bagua. I havent practiced Bagua but it seems to me to be very much involved with muscle torque?

Jude

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#370795 - 01/22/08 06:05 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
eyrie Offline
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Quote:

there are some steps to go through BEFORE you actually come to the stationary part. If you rush into the stationary part first, it will not mean anything as it is just another physical excersize.


I must have been asleep at the time and missed this... but are you saying that standing stake is jumping ahead? Or are you saying, before you stand, you must learn to crawl?

For clarity, and perhaps, without giving away the farm, what prior objectives should one aim for before attempting to stand?

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#370796 - 01/22/08 06:22 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
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I think he's saying you have to learn to move without moving first, before you can become stationary.

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#370797 - 01/22/08 08:31 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
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Jude just generalising.


Doing as he often does, now-a-days, namely he finds other things to do while patiently waiting for the educated types to work things out amongst themselves.

Jude

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#370798 - 01/22/08 09:25 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
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jude, you have to think, read and write in riddles. then, and only then, can you be part of the chi club. you have to speak in concepts as: "moving in stillness", "mind over matter", "seeing without looking", "internal reverse breathing", ...you get the idea.

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#370799 - 01/22/08 09:52 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
pathfinder7195 Offline
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Ed, are you also a member? You seem to be at every chi meeting there is. Maybe we could nickname you chi shadow?


Edited by pathfinder7195 (01/22/08 09:54 PM)

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#370800 - 01/22/08 10:32 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
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Quote:

I think he's saying you have to learn to move without moving first, before you can become stationary.


I don't think so....

Standing stake/stationary training trains a number of things. I'm guessing BP means not bypassing a few of the basic pre-requisites, because the mind/body skills build upon and feed into one another.

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#370801 - 01/23/08 12:46 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: eyrie]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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You are technically right and Ed is conceptually right, except that Ed also appears now to have mastered the fine art of speaking in riddles which will do any IMA master proud. Your Chi-RiddleMaster Class One certificate is already in the mail and which will entitle you to officially sit in on any Chi-Master Club meetings.
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#370802 - 01/23/08 02:38 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
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how cool is THAT!

to answer pathfinder71952859304's question:
Quote:

Ed, are you also a member? You seem to be at every chi meeting there is. Maybe we could nickname you chi shadow?




think of it more akin to the movie: Caddyshack. Remember the character played by Rodney Dangerield - The loudmouth annoying one-lining buffoon who brute-force buys his way into the high-brow wannabe golf club, wears horribly distasteful clothes and incorporates state-of-the-art technology and adhoc ploys to compensate for his lack of game - since he believes winning and the bottom line are more imortant than playing? well...that'd be me when I crash chi threads.


now, to celebrate my chi-membership:
"Hey everybody, we're gonna get laid!"

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#370803 - 01/23/08 03:01 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ed_Morris Offline
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cast of "Chishack":

ButterflyPalm (& eyrie playing stunt double)



wristwister



Gavin




stand-ins asking questions:

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#370804 - 01/23/08 06:43 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
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Just watching the DVD boxset What the bleep do we know?

Bloody interesting stuff. Found the main program initially fascinating when it was talking about Quantum Mechanics, but I found it starting drifting away from science and into opinion and conjecture....a bit too much like a "Positive Thinking" sale pitch to me. BUT the DVD extras though are awesome. Just on the first DVD extra which is details a load of experiments and interpretations of the results. Very interesting stuff!
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#370805 - 01/23/08 07:28 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
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that looks pretty funny.

not to keep jumping around in this thread that now reads like swiss cheese, but the unconscious structures I was getting at in discussing stationary training, was hoping to lead to a discussion of intercostal muscles as it relates to methods of training.

everyone throwing in thoughts on that, would be great...

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#370806 - 01/23/08 07:40 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Gavin]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Now, it really wasn't necessary to get Wrist angry, again.

As for Gavin, we should be hearing from him very soon (in the form of a lengthy but well written article) on the intricacies of Chipmunkian grammar.

Eyrie, I dunno, seems rather quiet these days. He has even been categorised as being "...no fun" in the Aikido thread.

As for Ed, well, he'll always be Ed no matter what you add.
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#370807 - 01/23/08 11:47 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


not to keep jumping around in this thread that now reads like swiss cheese, but the unconscious structures I was getting at in discussing stationary training, was hoping to lead to a discussion of intercostal muscles as it relates to methods of training.




Intercostal muscles. The muscles of breathing.

So do you mean keeping them in a state of isometric contraction while staying in a stance?

All the rest of you guys on here, I think Ed wants to discuss the topic.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (01/23/08 11:51 AM)

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#370808 - 01/23/08 07:20 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: jude33]
eyrie Offline
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Hmmm.... I thought I'd come out of hiding to just say... Ashe Higgs posted a few interesting tidbits in the Kung Fu forum. The ones that come to mind are the relationship to core training and the one about myofascial structures.

Not sure what intercostal muscles have anything to do with this. It's far deeper than that... (pun intended).

* retreats into bat cave to hug imaginary trees whilst riding imaginary steppe ponies *

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#370809 - 01/23/08 10:14 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: eyrie]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Hmmm.... I thought I'd come out of hiding to just say... Ashe Higgs posted a few interesting tidbits in the Kung Fu forum. The ones that come to mind are the relationship to core training and the one about myofascial structures.




ok, I will have a look at it.
Quote:


Not sure what intercostal muscles have anything to do with this. It's far deeper than that... (pun intended).





Would it be at all possable, to be explained, perhaps a bit more in depth?

Quote:



* retreats into bat cave to hug imaginary trees whilst riding imaginary steppe ponies *





I am led to believe some of our ancestors (according to science) liked to hug trees for most of their lives. I think they lived in them. That was before the up-heavel of the Earth made for less trees.

Thats where caves became like real estate.

Horse riding also came later

So could it said? That living in a cave, imagining tree hugging and pony riding might have something to do with our genetic memory?

Jude

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#370810 - 01/23/08 10:52 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: jude33]
eyrie Offline
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Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
You're reading way too much into it... it's just "core" training...

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#370811 - 01/23/08 11:57 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: eyrie]
BrianS Offline
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Tell us more about Atlantis.
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#370812 - 01/24/08 12:03 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
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Quote:

as in staying in one posture for an extended amount of time.

I remember doing these drills/exercises, we used to stop and hold at every sequence in kata and just stay in the position for several minutes, then proceed to the next...absolutely exhasting. I kindof forgot about those drills, but was recently reminded of their importance.

somehow, your body just figures out on it's own how to maintain after the major muscles become fatigued....so then the smaller structures start becoming more important as they compensate and make those micro adjustments needed to conserve and maintain.

I don't know the technical terms of whats going on, but I do think it's about a body learning it's own efficiency.


If you are willing to share your thoughts on stationary training from whichever Art point-of-view, it's appreciated.




Ed,
Kind of reminds me of standing in shiko-dachi and punching for long periods of time.
We also use to do line training and there were long periods of stationary training there too.
Makes me wonder....
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#370813 - 01/24/08 12:59 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: BrianS]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Tell us more about Atlantis.


Sure...

start here or when all else fails.

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#370814 - 01/24/08 01:48 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: eyrie]
Vennificus Offline
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I use option B first
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