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#370763 - 01/19/08 03:35 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: eyrie]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Huh? I'm not one you are accusing of denigrating anything am I?

I don't think I "have" anything, I train with Karate people who do have some of these skills, I have no idea how they stack up with specifically "internal" styles, or people who's 'bread and butter' is mainly this stuff, and I don't really care to be honest.

What i've been shown is great for me because it's directly functional to the art I do, as most of the training revolves around Sanchin kata. It's had a huge effect on my training and how I use my body and i'm glad I have the opportunity to learn it.

Not trying to insult anyone or say i've been shown the "holy grail" by any stretch of the imagination.

I have been around long enough though to know when someone can and cannot do these things, so while the e-budo thread is interesting, I am (believe it or not) capable of answering the questions posed in it in terms of my own training pretty easily.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (01/19/08 03:50 PM)

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#370764 - 01/19/08 08:16 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: Zach_Zinn]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
It wasn't directed at you mate...

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#370765 - 01/19/08 08:22 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

The point (no pun) I was trying to make in answer to Zach is...


I was merely jesting...

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#370766 - 01/19/08 10:22 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: eyrie]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Ah ok good, just making sure, one never knows given how controversial these discussions can get.

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#370767 - 01/20/08 12:15 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

what do you personally visualize when doing stationary training? ...or maybe I wouldn't want to know.




Before I even got to the stationary training part, I needed to do Step One of Step One, which was, you guessed it, "arbitrary initiation ritual" ('AIR') AND BETWEEN 'AIR' and the stationary training part there are a FEW MORE steps.

So you see the problem? It is a step-by-step process and each step WILL give you a certain effect on your body and the next step builds on the one before and by the time you reach the stationary part, your posture is no longer a mere physical structure maintained by an enforced attempt to keep the body "in place" or "in parade rest" BUT THAT YOUR CHI IS DOING IT FOR YOU. The test that this is happening is to be able to hold your hands out in the crucifix position for one hour and at the end of it feels no muscular pain whatsoever or any kind of discomfort in any part of the body. (You are in effect consciously doing self-acupuncture) During my much younger days, I've won quite a few bets with some disbelieving friends. I am not saying this is the whole purpose of the training, just to show one of the fun effects of correct training.

As I've said before, this is only the "flour" What you wish to do with it from here on, whether for medical or martial purposes, is up to you. It can be applied to your sanchin & tensho kata which will now "feel" completely different because now you have the chi moving through your tensed muscles and this is when the 'hard' & 'soft' TRULY melt together 100% of the time, whereas previously it was just tensed muscles (as in sanchin) or pretended softness (as in tensho), nothing more. Of course just being able to do the sanchin/tensho kata without the chi part has it's benefits, but it is not complete or meant to be. That was why I said the Okinawans got only the external part of these kata and hence my (probably misunderstood ) comments on Hopkins's article on Tensho kata sometime back.

Most internal martial artists apply the "flour" to the Tai Chi, Bagua, Hsing Yi Form and the sensitivity gained is further developed in Tui Shou (push hand) But some more advanced people eliminate the Form altogether as done in Yi Chuan. It used to be Hsing Yi Chuan (Form Mind Fist), the Hsing being the Form and when the Form (Hsing) was eliminated, what was left was simply Yi Chuan (Mind Fist) The idea being that if you needed to have a Form, you essentially became a prisoner of that Form and you needed to depend on muscle memory to bring out your techniques. Without the Form, the mind is free to respond as the situation demands. Now, to reach this stage of development, your body has to depend entirely on a very high degree of control, manipulation AND PROJECTION of your chi. Not many people has reached this stage of development where the oft-quoted phrase "I know your move before you even make it" takes on a real meaning.

Now a word on "the other" IMA which it is actually 'external' IMA. This is IMA for people who do not have a highly developed control and projection of their chi and so needed to depend on structure, bio-mechanics, the instantaneous coupling of the skeletal structure to produce short sharp explosive force. A low development of the chi here helps because a higher than normal degree of internalistaion will let you have a "better internal feel" and therefore control of your skeletal structure (a kind of advanced parade rest) This where the confusion lies when people say the "chi" is not really necessary or just a mental construct in IMA training. Yes, if you are talking only about external IMA. Many "masters" (east & west) brought in the 'idea' of chi in their teaching when they themselves are only half-way there and thus confused their students. You need only to ask the question, "Can you teach me the actual method to get the chi to consciously move in my body at will?" and wait for the answer.

It is fair to ask me where I am at in all of this. I am at the stage where I can at will and instantaneously project my chi far enough so that I am on well the way to be able to truly understand the abovementioned phrase "I know your move before you even make it and when you do move, you run into my chi before you can get any closer" One thing good about this is I can do this even when I am 80 years old. Wish me luck.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#370768 - 01/20/08 01:06 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
You are saying you have a faster reaction time than people with the same amount of years non-'real IMA' based training experience - the direct cause of your superior swiftness is due to the visualization of projecting your chi which enables you to sense the immediate future of a soon-to-be attacker's intent. is that in effect fair to say?


p.s. I wish everyone luck that we all make it to 80 without needing to wear a diaper.


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#370769 - 01/20/08 01:34 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
I don't think the Okinawans got only the external part of Tensho or Sanchin, I think that's your perception from watching too many musclebound guys huff and puff their way through Sanchin, there are plenty of people training these kata who get the deeper parts, and honestly you failure to know this just points to your not being exposed to good Karate teachers, not anything else.

The reason to train Sanchin and Tensho is to change your body for martial arts, this doesn't mean having big muscles or popping veins out of your head.

So yeah...a whole lot of conjecture and throwing about of the term Chi, neat.

Quote:


It is fair to ask me where I am at in all of this. I am at the stage where I can at will and instantaneously project my chi far enough so that I am on well the way to be able to truly understand the abovementioned phrase "I know your move before you even make it and when you do move, you run into my chi before you can get any closer" One thing good about this is I can do this even when I am 80 years old. Wish me luck.





Are you serious?

EDIT: Just noticed in your profile that "chi development" is a hobby of yours....so i'm gonna take that as a yes.

Out of curiousity, how much time did you spend training in Goju? If the answer is "none to very little" why would anyone care about your view on what Sanchin or Tensho represent?

If the answer is something else, go on about Sanchin and Tensho, as i'd love to hear someone knowledgable on the "internal" aspects of these kata explain.

Fact is there are guys with these skills in a variety of MA, I personally think they have probably been a part of many MA for a while. They may very well have originated in China, but I don't think that Chinese MA have a monopoly on them.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (01/20/08 01:45 AM)

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#370770 - 01/20/08 01:46 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Zach_Zinn]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
I don't do any of the Okinawan arts.

If I am mistaken, I do apologise.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#370771 - 01/20/08 01:54 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
"I'll rather be happy than right, anytime."

well...at least you got your first choice.

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#370772 - 01/20/08 02:00 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia

_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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