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#370733 - 11/18/07 09:07 PM Stationary training
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
as in staying in one posture for an extended amount of time.

I remember doing these drills/exercises, we used to stop and hold at every sequence in kata and just stay in the position for several minutes, then proceed to the next...absolutely exhasting. I kindof forgot about those drills, but was recently reminded of their importance.

somehow, your body just figures out on it's own how to maintain after the major muscles become fatigued....so then the smaller structures start becoming more important as they compensate and make those micro adjustments needed to conserve and maintain.

I don't know the technical terms of whats going on, but I do think it's about a body learning it's own efficiency.


If you are willing to share your thoughts on stationary training from whichever Art point-of-view, it's appreciated.

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#370734 - 11/19/07 01:12 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

as in staying in one posture for an extended amount of time.

I remember doing these drills/exercises, we used to stop and hold at every sequence in kata and just stay in the position for several minutes, then proceed to the next...absolutely exhasting. I kindof forgot about those drills, but was recently reminded of their importance.

somehow, your body just figures out on it's own how to maintain after the major muscles become fatigued....so then the smaller structures start becoming more important as they compensate and make those micro adjustments needed to conserve and maintain.

I don't know the technical terms of whats going on, but I do think it's about a body learning it's own efficiency.


If you are willing to share your thoughts on stationary training from whichever Art point-of-view, it's appreciated.




An Isometric form of training?

Isometrics are thousands of years old and examples can be found in the static holds in certain branches of yoga or Chinese martial arts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isometric_exercise



Edited by jude33 (11/19/07 01:23 AM)

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#370735 - 11/19/07 01:23 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
yes. Is there any difference in terms of IMA?

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#370736 - 11/19/07 01:38 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

yes. Is there any difference in terms of IMA?




I can only comment by observation of what I think I see in the IMA. I cant comment from the view of a practioner.
Its seems to me that IMA might be mainly isometric. But there again looking at the guys on okinawa (and indeed other places) the way they train they are also incorperating isometrics.

Jude

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#370737 - 12/10/07 02:01 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

yes. Is there any difference in terms of IMA?




The silence is deafening
_________________________
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#370738 - 12/26/07 09:21 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:

yes. Is there any difference in terms of IMA?




The silence is deafening




So if the silence is deafening it looks like Jude has to work it out his self.

I guess the reason is;

Part of the training to control the mind
By staying in that one stance and concentrating on the correct body line up and pushing out all other thoughts it is a form of meditation.
It is practicing using the conscouise part of the mind.
Pushing out all other thoughts.

If (subject to physical conditioning) it begins to hurt then the mind again should blank the discomfort.

And it is a form of isometric training.

The chi part. By thinking about chi being around the navel level the bodyweight should be kept low.
This is the chi explanation part.
The body weight is low and held in isometric contraction of the muscles of the lower body.

Chi is energy.
The energy is the Flow that begins with thought and ends up with the muscles being held in contraction.

Wish some of you guys would point score elsewhere and
discuss topics at hand.

Jude

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#370739 - 12/30/07 08:59 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: jude33]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
No Jude,

I don't know much about isometrics but I don't think that has anything to do with it. Forget about mediation and 'chi' - I think it is terribly misleading.

The question you should be asking is WHAT exactly are you training when in a stationary posture.

ButterflyPalm has mentioned this before in another thread - I'm certain that at the time he mentioned it, it has gone over many people's heads. For brevity, and I paraphrase, he essentially said to stand and imagine like you're stuck in thick mud (or really dense air) and you are trying to move but can't move - but to do so in a relaxed manner, without straining to contract your muscles. That's why some people say taiji is like "swimming on land".

So, from a casual observer's POV, it "looks" like "meditation" but it's not. Yes, you are using your mind to control/restrain your body, and your mind will fatigue long before your body does.

Forget about chi as "energy". It's about manipulating forces - gravity is a force, the reaction of the gravity on the ground is a force, tension is a force, pressure is a force. That's the simplistic view, but it's a heck lot more complicated than that. It's certainly a lot more complicated than simply letting your body figure out how to maintain "efficient" postural alignment beyond the point of muscle fatigue... you'd be surprise how much tension you hold in parts of your body just trying to maintain a specific posture, and a large part of beginning to learn to feel this, is to relax.

HTH

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#370740 - 12/30/07 10:54 PM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
One thing i've been shown which is interesting to do is stand in "holding the tree" while a partner gradually pushes on your shoulder, before long you can possibly get it to the point where they can't move you, and you really feel the connections.

You can take a bo (or something similar) and put it against the wall with the other end against your solar plexus and fix your posture in sanchin-kamae, sounds silly but it really does some eye opening things.

If you are into this kind of stuff I highly suggest Kris Wilder's The Way Of Sanchin kata, I know it's odd to mention in this forum but I notice you are a Goju guy as well.

Kris has a number of different drills and "tests" in the book that really bring this kind of training alive, and I can say that after training with Kris and his guys their Karate I feel has an extra dimension due to this kind of training, whether you want to call it 'internal' or not.

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing/books/external/way-of-sanchin-kata


I used to think this kind of training was of limited value, but after seeing some of the results it's defnitely something i'm trying to concentrate on more.

There are a number of books on qigong also from YMAA that give all the basic postures and visualizations, i'd gotten something out of these as well, worth looking into.

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#370741 - 01/17/08 01:20 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I'll try to use a 'style-agnostic' example of what I meant by the thread opening, but I realize it applies in a crude way...

in the military, particularly basic and early training - there is alot of: getting exhasted thru hours of various physical drills, then suddenly standing in place, holding a formal position (parade rest) for what felt like hours at a time. you aren't allowed to move - eyes straight and hold the position. your body 'learns' very quickly the micro-adjustments necessary to stay up in the most efficient mannor. it's not a conscious effort - it just happens and falls into place after the stage of jittering, shifting and fatigue spasms.
after a while, your body remembers that efficient position right away instead of wasting energy trying to re-find it....not to mention the internal structures strengthen to support that position.

not sure what the military application of the particular position of 'parade rest' is, other than dicipline - but the idea is the same if applied to shooting while fatigued. after a while, your body learns to hold the optimal position while aiming a rifle for a long period of time, when high-alert guarding in shifts a dug-in position over-night for instance.

most do the same kind of 'stance holding' in various MA's - The positions vary between arts, and the explaination of what is going on and what is accomplished, etc. but isn't it really just physically learning efficiency of some strategic position thru fatigue? the idea being, after a while, your body just locks in at will to the learned efficiency.

isn't it just that simple, and all the rest of the language and visualizations used for such an exercise just creating layers around that simplicity?

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#370742 - 01/17/08 05:21 AM Re: Stationary training [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

...isn't it just that simple, and all the rest of the language and visualizations used for such an exercise just creating layers around that simplicity?




No it's not.

If you really, really, really want to know why it's not and why there are a lot more layers than you can ever imagine, then, all I am going to say is, DO the 'arbitrary initiation ritual' ('AIR training') EVERYDAY for at least 4-6 months, THEN AND ONLY THEN incorporate what you have "felt" in your AIR training into your "parade rest" stances. You will not see things the same anymore.

An end to words have to happen somewhere and the DOING has to start IF you are really, really, really interested to find IT.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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