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#370633 - 11/16/07 09:18 PM For the sake of learning it
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
At my school, when a student reaches 2nd dan, a very interesting thing happens. For the first time in our MA training, we are given the option to pick the patterns we would like to learn. There are four recognized 2nd dan patterns in the chang hon style, yet we are only required to learn three.

Juche is typically learned by the more athletic and flexible students, while Ko-dang is typically learned by the, shall we say, more grounded students.

Last weekend, I had the opportunity to discuss patterns with the instructor of another school in my area, and his decision to change several of the patterns learned at his school to WTF patterns. His reasoning, "Why have a student learn a pattern that they have no chance of ever doing well?"

Is it better to have a student focus on a pattern that they will eventually be able to do well, or make them work on a pattern knowing that they will probably never do it well?

And given a choice, which would you choose to learn?

Laura

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#370634 - 11/16/07 10:02 PM Re: For the sake of learning it [Re: tkd_high_green]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I was shown all the katas on my first day, and given the choice of learning either beginner/training kata first, or going straight to classical. I chose classical, and am taught them as fast as possible. I currently suck at all of them (my opinion)...but if my teacher died tomorrow I could muster on with what I know. Very few get the opportunity to have such input, and I've been told on other forums that it isn't traditional in a 'real dojo'. Screw it.

I say...each student has to pick their own way...the way that is right for them.

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#370635 - 11/17/07 08:48 AM Re: For the sake of learning it [Re: tkd_high_green]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
That is a bit hard for me to understand. In AKK, there is no choice about learning forms - everyone has to learn them all. Black belts are responsible for knowing (and being able to teach) all the forms up to their level.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#370636 - 11/17/07 01:52 PM Re: For the sake of learning it [Re: tkd_high_green]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
TKD

If given the choices you list above--ie based upon body type.

I would pick the "extra" kata/pattern/hung/form that would be seen as the LEAST suited to my body-type.
I think it would be really helpful and challangeing to work on a pattern from a "different" perspective.

In that situation its what I would do......then again, I spend a good part of my free time climbing high rocks just for fun....so my perspective could, at best, be considered "questionable."
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#370637 - 11/17/07 06:10 PM Re: For the sake of learning it [Re: tkd_high_green]
Ironfoot Offline
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Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
I'm glad I didn't have a choice! No one kata is my favorite, nor am I markedly better at one than another.

Personally I think people tend to work at their strengths, and ignoe their weaknesses. Perhaps the idea here was to gear the students towards tournament competition.
_________________________

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#370638 - 11/17/07 11:19 PM Re: For the sake of learning it [Re: Ironfoot]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
Matt, Not every black belt is an instructor or has desire to be an instructor, and in our case there are occasionally some students due to injury or age that would be incapable of doing juches more challenging moves.

Like the black belt discussion going on right now, I can see modifying the curriculum if someone has a physical disability that prevents them from being able to do something. At one point, due to an injury to my foot, I would have been unable to do the various jumping moves in that pattern.

Ironfoot, tournament competition could very well have been part of the reason, however as you said, people tend to work toward their strengths. Would it make more sense then to focus on your strengths and do them well, or focus on your weaknesses and maybe do them ok?

Laura

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#370639 - 11/18/07 10:25 AM Re: For the sake of learning it [Re: tkd_high_green]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Laura:

A very odd choice.... the goal of bone-fide kata, hyung, poomose...perhaps its sole goal is to unravel their mysteries, their whispers, again, and again. Knowing how without the why is a horrible exercise in foolishness. Having not been given those tools by that point IMV shows an indication of a very, very different mindset, or more correctly respectfully its summary lack.

By whatever the Korean equivelent of Second Degree Black Belt, one hopes I would have been taught how to understand movement, structure. Prey tell what is so alien about any of those forms that such they will never be ~well done~ ?

Respectfully puzzled
Jeff

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#370640 - 11/18/07 10:36 AM Re: For the sake of learning it [Re: tkd_high_green]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Laura:

P.S. Any chance you have two links which show what you would consider good Juche and then good Ko-dang

Jeff

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#370641 - 11/18/07 02:47 PM Re: For the sake of learning it [Re: Ronin1966]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


Hello Laura:

P.S. Any chance you have two links which show what you would consider good Juche and then good Ko-dang




Not that I want to steal Laura's thunder or anything, but I have dug up two videos of what I would consider well performed patterns.

first, Juche performed by Jaroslaw Suska, ITF patterns world champion. I'd say it's pretty flawless, or at least I've never seen anybody perform it as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQX6TCXuQp4

Second, Ko-dang performed by a Norwegian 3rd degree. Pretty darn good I'd say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X7lrrEswyk

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#370642 - 11/18/07 02:55 PM Re: For the sake of learning it [Re: tkd_high_green]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


Matt, Not every black belt is an instructor or has desire to be an instructor, and in our case there are occasionally some students due to injury or age that would be incapable of doing juches more challenging moves.





Now, this is where I disagree with you Laura. While I don't expect every black belt to be a great teacher, I at least expect them to know and be able to teach the entire curriculum up to black belt, or 1-2 degrees below their own Black belt rank. Without at least knowing the pattern well technically speaking, it would be very difficult to teach a student the pattern.

That is to say, perhaps a student only learns 3 of 4 patterns at 2nd degree, he/she then becomes a 3rd of 4th degree, sets up their own school and a 2nd degree comes to train with them, hoping to learn their patterns. The instructor is then not able to teach the student all the patterns- isn't that the same as LOSING part of the TKD curriculum as successive generations of instructors never learn one of the patterns.

In conclusion then, I think instructors should always try to teach the whole curriculum, because their students are the instructors of tomorrow.

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