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#370474 - 11/20/07 01:03 PM Re: Who earns black belts? [Re: harlan]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I didn't see this post Harlan when I did my last so I will answer this now.

Quote:

Then, of course you probably agree that the standards should remain the same...regardless of age? That an officer that doesn't maintain that standard throughout his career...should be mustered out? Or does he get to rest on his laurels with a cushy day desk assignment?




In this example, and for many things ... we must not forget that time and experience counts for a lot. For example a world class athlete can no longer perform at the levels they once had but now they have taken it upon themselves to train others to become world class athletes. Their experience helps the next generation ... and so on ... and so on.

Those people who obtain positions or rankings may not be able to perform at the standards that they once were able but their experience and knowledge is invaluable. For my earlier example of the doctor who gets in an accident but can no longer perform at the quality he/she did ... their knowledge would be invaluable for future generations.

By lowering standards how can these people pass on knowledge to better society? All that does is "dumb down" things as standards will be lowered again and again. Then you have a watered down version ... and we already complain about the poor quality of martial art schools. Lower standards does not work and should be avoided. In fact I think standards should always be raised making it even harder so that only the best can obtain them.
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#370475 - 11/20/07 01:11 PM Re: Who earns black belts? [Re: harlan]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

Then, of course you probably agree that the standards should remain the same...regardless of age? That an officer that doesn't maintain that standard throughout his career...should be mustered out? Or does he get to rest on his laurels with a cushy day desk assignment?




Different argument, IMHO. We are talking about achieving standards, not maintaining them once achieved. No one can maintain things indefinitely.
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#370476 - 11/20/07 01:14 PM Re: Who earns black belts? [Re: MattJ]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
So, Dereck...the assumption then is that those that attain belts will pass along the art...will go on to teach?

And Matt...a teacher doesn't have to be able 'to do' at a certain point?

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#370477 - 11/20/07 01:24 PM Re: Who earns black belts? [Re: harlan]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

And Matt...a teacher doesn't have to be able 'to do' at a certain point?




I don't think I said that. They would have had "to do" as they came up the ranks. Are you asking if I expect an 80 y/o to be able to (still?) do a jump-spinning back kick?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#370478 - 11/20/07 01:28 PM Re: Who earns black belts? [Re: MattJ]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
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Loc: Amherst, MA
Yes...that is what I'm asking. After all...the standards shouldn't be lowered...should they?

I think that 'idealistically' one would like to see standards...it makes life a lot easier. In reality...how does one compare apples and oranges? Different arts, different people with different skills and abilities? If one wants their art to be accessible, then a range of standards has to be implemented to be inclusive of all practioners at the varying stages of their lives.

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#370479 - 11/20/07 01:53 PM Re: Who earns black belts? [Re: harlan]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

If one wants their art to be accessible, then a range of standards has to be implemented to be inclusive of all practioners at the varying stages of their lives.




I don't agree. Does everyone have to be a black belt to have an accessible art? *I* may never get to black belt in BJJ, but that doesn't stop me from studying it.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#370480 - 11/20/07 01:56 PM Re: Who earns black belts? [Re: harlan]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

So, Dereck...the assumption then is that those that attain belts will pass along the art...will go on to teach?




No, that is certainly not what I'm saying. Here is what I have found. Those that obtain high rankings that still train have valuable knowledge and whether teaching or not they do pass on that knowledge. I cannot tell you how many people I have gained knowledge from that were not teachers. Now a person that obtains a high rank and then quits ... well they start to lose that knowledge. I don't suspect this person will be teaching anything valuable unless they re-educate them self.

I was a carpenter at one time for many years; my father owned his own business. I haven't done this for 20 years and though I "was" a carpenter and still retain a fair bit of knowledge, I am not one now. But if I wanted to take that up again, it would be easier for me to relearn it then somebody learning from scratch. People "were" black belts but if they give it up they have earned that ranking at one point in their lives but does not make them one today.
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"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#370481 - 11/20/07 01:56 PM Re: Who earns black belts? [Re: MattJ]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Matt, that seems sensible to me. But from what I've read on the boards, it seems that schools that have rank seem to hold back students that want to learn until they rank, or they will have to have 2 sets of standards.



Edited by harlan (11/20/07 02:03 PM)

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#370482 - 11/20/07 02:02 PM Re: Who earns black belts? [Re: harlan]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Excellent point Matt. I too will probably never obtain a black belt in BJJ but I will most certainly work towards it and enjoy my training while still gaining valuable knowledge during the process.

Harlan, organizations that do have double standards we've seen overtime become watered down version and then they give martial arts a black eye.

I am going to pose a question to the people of this thread, and please forgive me a head of time as I am not trying to demean anybody. If standards are lowered for a challenged person and they award this person a black belt, would you seek out this individual to train you or would you seek out an individual that has higher standards?
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#370483 - 11/20/07 02:06 PM Re: Who earns black belts? [Re: Dereck]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
The day I showed up to learn kobudo, I only asked two questions: what do I call you and what do you expect of me? It never occurred to me to ask 'what belt are you'? It was irrelevant to me...and that is why I'm where I'm at...in a situation where belts aren't a principle part of training. I consider my standards to be very high...the one requirement I had when seeking out a teacher was: integrity.

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