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#370534 - 11/26/07 11:44 PM Re: Who earns black belts? [Re: yuanofkienninja]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

First of all I'd like to say welcome to Democracyland. Here in Democracyland, the OWNER of an establishment decides who he teaches. The OWNER of said establishment decides how his students are graded, and what they are taught. The public is free to come and go as they wish, provided that they do not become a nuisance to the OWNER of the establishment. Political Correctness is an abomination. Please enjoy your stay in Democracyland.




Not sure what you are saying here exactly. Are you taking a jab at me?
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#370535 - 11/26/07 11:50 PM Re: Who earns black belts? [Re: Dereck]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Quoted by fileboy2002
If only people with adequate martial skills deserve to wear back belts, what about able-bodied people who earned black belts but are now disabled? I once had a neighbor who earned a black belt in Shotokan karate. Years later, he lost a hand in a workplace accident. Should we strip of his black belt now? Following your logic, we should.

What about black belts who have grown too old or infirm to train? Should an elderly black belt, now crippled by artheritis, be stripped of that rank?




Okay, 100% now I know you are not reading everything. You are only reading what you want and are not reading everything. Let me refresh your memory.

Quote:

Now as for "taking back" a ranking because you are no longer able to perform it; I say no. If I was a doctor and I got in an accident and was unable to perform those duties any longer should I have my hard work, schooling and years of dedication be removed? The answer is no, I would still be a doctor, just not a practicing doctor. Same thing with belts. I put in the time, I met the standards and earned that rank ... nobody can take that away from me. However if I stop one day training and then a number of years later I take it up again, I believe that I should work again towards meeting those standards to the best of my ability; I would still retain my rank but would be unable to advance if I cannot perform the next standards required of me.




Quote:

In this example, and for many things ... we must not forget that time and experience counts for a lot. For example a world class athlete can no longer perform at the levels they once had but now they have taken it upon themselves to train others to become world class athletes. Their experience helps the next generation ... and so on ... and so on.

Those people who obtain positions or rankings may not be able to perform at the standards that they once were able but their experience and knowledge is invaluable. For my earlier example of the doctor who gets in an accident but can no longer perform at the quality he/she did ... their knowledge would be invaluable for future generations.




Perhaps you should start at the top of the thread and read through thoroughly.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#370536 - 11/26/07 11:57 PM Re: Who earns black belts? [Re: Dereck]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:

First of all I'd like to say welcome to Democracyland. Here in Democracyland, the OWNER of an establishment decides who he teaches. The OWNER of said establishment decides how his students are graded, and what they are taught. The public is free to come and go as they wish, provided that they do not become a nuisance to the OWNER of the establishment. Political Correctness is an abomination. Please enjoy your stay in Democracyland.




Not sure what you are saying here exactly. Are you taking a jab at me?




Dereck,

I don't think it was a stab at you personally. He was just reinforcing that we all have opinions on how we do things and none of them is legally wrong.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#370537 - 11/27/07 04:13 AM Re: Who earns black belts? [Re: fileboy2002]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

If getting a black belt HAS to be indicative of martial skills, then a whole lot of able-bodied people who have them don't deserve them.




Yep.


Quote:

Let's take this arguement to its logical conclusion:




You just did.


Quote:

Cord,

It is not the disabled who doubt they deserve black belts--it is the able bodied who doubt it. You are protecting the disabled from a sense of inferiority they do not have, and pandering to the bigotiry of those who feel threatened by their accomplishments.




Do you actually read my posts, or do you see in them what you want to see? I have done, in my youth, a fair bit of voluntary work with disabled kids, and I know first hand from that experience that they are just people no more, no less. They despise patronisation, and on the whole display a stubborn streak a mile wide when it comes to determined effort to do as much for themselves as possible. they dont need a token black belt issued in lieu of skill to validate their 'fighting spirit' or whatever- they prove that every day, and have done since long before putting on the white pyjamas.

Lets also remember that many disabled as not born so, and come to be by misfortune. Lets say that I am an able bodied karateka, a hard working Purple Belt. i have an accident that leaves me with only 10% range of motion in one arm and a drop foot. I do my rehab and go back to class, 3 months later I am graded, and in my mind, do a crap job, but I am glad to have got back to my classes. Suddenly, my sensei awards me a black belt in honour of my dedication and courage. Nice thought and all, but WTF!! I wouldnt want it. I am still the same guy that was sweating away unnoticed as a purple belt a few months previous. i feel patronised, and seperate from my classmates, one of which is a good friend who started the same day as me, and who just graded, and failed to get his brown belt, having performed infinitely better than me. I know that every time he looks at that BB around my waist, though he would never begrudge me wearing it, he knows I only got it because of my injuries, not because of my abilites. That sucks.

You must reward the persons achievements, not pander to their limitations, if they are to truly reach their potential- thats the same for able and disabled alike, we are, after all, just people.
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Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
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#370538 - 11/27/07 08:03 AM Re: Who earns black belts? [Re: Cord]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Fileboy -

Agreed with the others. Go back and actually READ the thread before jumping to erroneous conclusions. No one is talking about "stripping" black belts from anyone that has earned them, nor would anyone that met high standards be stripped of their belt due to age or later infirmary.

But yes, high standards WOULD stop even a lot of able-bodied people from getting black belts. That is kind of the point.

Oldman -

I have never promoted anyone to black belt. It is a fair question to ask, "who promotes others". Standards need to start at the top, IMHO.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#370539 - 11/27/07 12:29 PM Re: Who earns black belts? [Re: MattJ]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#370540 - 11/27/07 12:40 PM Re: Who earns black belts? [Re: MattJ]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
MattJ,

Believe it or not, I do actually READ. Unfortunately, some others clearly do not. I never said anyone has called for stripping people of black belts--what I said was that if we followed the logic that says black belts MUST POSSESS THE REQUISITE MARTIAL SKILLS, then stripping certain people of belts would be consistent with that logic.

Do you READ?

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#370541 - 11/27/07 12:44 PM Re: Who earns black belts? [Re: fileboy2002]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

MattJ,

Believe it or not, I do actually READ. Unfortunately, some others clearly do not. I never said anyone has called for stripping people of black belts--what I said was that if we followed the logic that says black belts MUST POSSESS THE REQUISITE MARTIAL SKILLS, then stripping certain people of belts would be consistent with that logic.

Do you READ?






A) Your "logic" is not correct. BB cannot be taken away once the standards have been met, any more than a high school or college degree would be if the person became infirm for some reason.

B) This point has already been addressed in this thread.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#370542 - 11/27/07 12:48 PM Re: Who earns black belts? [Re: fileboy2002]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

MattJ,

Believe it or not, I do actually READ. Unfortunately, some others clearly do not. I never said anyone has called for stripping people of black belts--what I said was that if we followed the logic that says black belts MUST POSSESS THE REQUISITE MARTIAL SKILLS, then stripping certain people of belts would be consistent with that logic.

Do you READ?




No, I don't believe you read everything and if you do then you are only reading what you want to and then misconstruing the meaning of those posts. Your logic for stripping the belts is flawed and has been addressed.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#370543 - 11/27/07 02:12 PM Re: Who earns black belts? [Re: fileboy2002]
Leonine Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 191
It's like a law degree, at the point of actually testing, you had better know everything up to standard. After you've gotten it, you are either a practicing lawyer or not, and that will dictate how much you remember.

When you test for your black belt, IMO, you had better have the required knowledge and fighting ability. After you have tested, if you continue to train, you will get better or worse, and this should dictate if you test to nidan or stay a shodan. You already proved you had it the ability for black belt, if it starts to fade with time, you just shouldn't advance in grade much more (my 70 year old master can still destroy me in MMA, bob n weave, take down, and submits me like that so the body failing with age is a choice of the practicioner IMO), but you should not be stripped. Honorary ranks for wisdom and achievement in the art are a different matter for a different thread.

Now, if you were to stop practicing entirely, I don't think you are a black belt anymore, I think you have one. It really annoys me when people claim to be black belts but haven't trained in 10 years.

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