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#370410 - 02/11/08 08:13 PM Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits [Re: Vennificus]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Yes, and karate means "empty hand"... what's your point? No art is so benign as to only use the techniques of it's "call sign".

Some schools of DM hit the "ridges" and others hit the "valley" in their techniques... so what does that mean?

The body is an intricate mixture of all kinds of systems... not just blood vessels, not just nerve centers, and not just "vital points"... It is made up of all kinds of systems, like the endocrine system... vital organs, like the liver and spleen.. an electrical system which causes the nerve synapses to occur so you can say hello to pain...

The opportunities to attack someone and do damage are endless... and the methods are countless... punches, kicks, one finger strikes, two finger strikes, elbows, knees... get the idea? Who might actually take advantage of the cycles of the heartbeat to launch an attack?... the breathing cycle? The fact that someone is standing with vital organs exposed to attack... what martial artist would actually do something like that?... a well-trained one... and one with more than one trick in his bag. "I'm going to whop the hell out of you" doesn't get it done all the time.

Young men fight from strength... old men fight from experience, knowledge, and understanding of how fighting is done... the most damage with the least effort. That takes both skill and knowledge of the body and it's systems.

DM is misunderstood by more people than know it, so some of the rants you get here are done more from ignorance than actually being able to disprove anything. Ask 90 percent of the "rookies" on the board what kyusho jitsu is, and they will tell you "pressure points"... it's actual meaning is "methods of hitting the body"... so go figure with the DM "press artery" understanding...

Like piloting a plane, you can't fly until you learn how... and there's a lot that goes into the process of learning how... and then there is "instrument flying" and "night flying"... so different training for different skills. Martial arts isn't any different from that...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#370411 - 02/11/08 10:19 PM Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits [Re: Vennificus]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Wrist

Problem is that I can effectivly measure the real world effects of Ed's "hook punch."

I can measure the force of the blow the torque effects the head as it moves under the blow---given height and weight and bone structure/density along with muscle density etc I can calculte the the probbaly effects.

My problem with much of DM/PP is NOT that the don't exsit--I'm sure that does--- its that the results are largely non-consitant from person to person and the effects largely can't be measured...not in the same fashion as direct percussion.

I've heard it said that if you "hit hard enough the whole body is pressure point"---a little over the top but a largely correct POV.



Edited by cxt (02/11/08 10:21 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#370412 - 02/12/08 12:06 AM Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits [Re: cxt]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I don't disagree with that, it's just that DM and Kyusho are different "accents" to fighting. Do the techniques work... sure they do... Am I going to kill a student or practitioner to prove it... not a chance...

What gets lost in the discussion is the effectiveness of what you're doing. If you were being treated for lymphomic disease, you'd be a believer that it not only existed, but was an important part of your body functions. That system is barely skin deep, and easily attacked. There are nerve bundles and muscle groups that can also be attacked and render you practically a slug without much effort... but the reversal of those kinds of attacks can take months to repair. It's not like a knockout, where you hand the guy some smelling salts, slap him on the back and everybody has a big laugh at how he fell down.

DM uses a lot of hematoma strikes, and also use a lot of attacks that damage the lymph system and major organs... hence the "death in three weeks" scenarios. The more "instant techniques" attack the vagus nerve, causing a total body shutdown. It's dangerous stuff... and it isn't for the newbies to go poking around in people's necks to find their "soft spot"... and anybody that allows that to be done to them is just plain stupid.

Quote:

My problem with much of DM/PP is NOT that the don't exsit--I'm sure that does--- its that the results are largely non-consitant from person to person and the effects largely can't be measured...not in the same fashion as direct percussion.




Let me ask you this... do you stand there and let somebody knock you out with their right hook... just to see if it works? I don't think so... so why does somebody have to put somebody else's life in jeopardy just so some skeptic's mental masturbation is fulfilled? Personally, I don't care whether or not anybody believes in DM... the more skeptical the better, for legal reasons. It's never been a "public art" like karate or TKD, and for good reason... it's dangerous... beyond the accidental bruises and broken bones, etc. of full contact fighting.

Since most of your arguments center on "force", let me ask you a "medical question"... is there a difference between taking a shot and taking a pill of the same medicine? Of course there is... and the dynamics of that play out every day in a doctor's office. Which is the most effective?.. it depends on the kind of illness being treated, and the "miscellaneous effects" of the medicine... same with DM.

Try this... place your hands along your hairline and press while drawing your hands toward your temples. Then put your thumbs in the hollows of your temples, and draw them along the eyebrow toward the nose. Cup your hands, and slide your fingertips along where the ears attach to the head, and then to the hollows of the jaw. Notice the "hills and valleys" of the bone structure? Now, take a "meridian chart" and see how the meridians are routed along the side of the head and upper section of the face and down the neck.

Now, during a fight... do you think you can hit a particular point on the head? Pick one and try it with one of your training buddies... just light contact. Then, have a kyusho jitsu practitioner show you how to strike one for a knockout... but make sure it's tied to kata... so you can "fight your way to the point".

Now... if I tell you to hit point X at a particular time of day... what are your chances? Now, if I tell you that you can "eliminate the clock" and hit the point at any time... do your chances go up?... of course they do. That, in a nutshell, is DM in process... Knowing what to hit, where it is, and when... is the "magic formula" that Ed's been trying for two years to get out of me. He should have figured out by now that I'll never tell him... One reason is that he refuses to go train in it to learn... he want's the "short course"... and I don't respond well to "or else".

I'm sitting here with a pistol on my side. It's got 9 9mm bullets in it, and it will kill you. Since you know what a 9mm will do, you also have confidence that it will kill you if pointed in your direction. How... it will damage your body functions beyond repair... cause bleeding... damage internal organs... DM will do the same thing, only slower. You don't have to have confidence that the 9mm will kill you for it to work... and I don't need to kill anybody with it to show you it works. The good thing about DM is you don't need a permit to carry...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#370413 - 02/12/08 12:45 AM Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

Knowing what to hit, where it is, and when... is the "magic formula" that Ed's been trying for two years to get out of me. He should have figured out by now that I'll never tell him... One reason is that he refuses to go train in it to learn... he want's the "short course"... and I don't respond well to "or else".



well, how can that be since I disregard the whole theory? I've never been looking for magic kill buttons. since you've spent your years chasing that grail, and I've spent them working to hit harder...I'd say you followed the easy out. but if both ways can get it done, then who cares, right?
As I said before, it's only the underlying theories I have a problem with DM/PP. The theories open up this whole mindset of magical thinking that carry into heathcare misconceptions, cult psychology, superpower thinking and ancient's knowledge worship that places people, particularly the young reading here, it places them squarely in the prime mindset of vulnerability of quacks and fakes that we can't deny exist in MUCH greater numbers than those who study such things but don't make a big deal about it or are looking to make moola.

Thats why, in regard to this thread topic, I say it's not pertinent or even relavent to DM/PP theory if someone with a heart condition gets hit on the chest by a 6th grade girl during recess and happens to tragically die.

it's bogus to illustrate stories like that as some kind of living proof of the theories. It would be like pointing out a story of a woman with osteoperosis getting punched in the sternum and it shatters as 'proof' that impact training can shatter sterums.


if I could get any of your secrets WT, I'd be after the Aikido ones - much more impressive to me than DM/PP claims.

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#370414 - 02/12/08 06:21 AM Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

if I could get any of your secrets WT, I'd be after the Aikido ones - much more impressive to me than DM/PP claims.




Unfortunately, Ed, they come with the same laborious process that the DM study does. They have to be felt more than "taught".

We were doing a technique last night, and one of the students kept having trouble throwing his partner. I told him "change the angle you're leading him". His reply... "it can't be that simple"... so he kept on having trouble. Unfortunately, you can't hold their heads down and pour technique into their ear... somewhere along the line, you have to believe the instructor...



_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#370415 - 02/12/08 06:40 AM Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits [Re: wristtwister]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

Unfortunately, you can't hold their heads down and pour technique into their ear... somewhere along the line, you have to believe the instructor...




Do you mean...*gasp*...having faith in something we don't yet understand? Do you that when people sometimes say, "Don't worry, it's Ok you won't fall, trust me!" that not everyone is setting you up only to see you fall flat on your arse? You saying that sometimes, just sometimes, it's OK to trust people and have faith that they're leading you to a nice place, EVEN if that place lays outside of our perception? God forbid you bloody heretic! I'm sure we have to live down holes, safe and protected from all the evil that this world has lurking outside! I thought we supposed to be cocooned by fear and suspicion....yes, I distinctly remember that. What's more, I remember I have to attack those that challenge my fear and suspicion! Are telling me that ain't so WT???
_________________________
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www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#370416 - 02/12/08 12:16 PM Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits [Re: Gavin]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Gav...
the best student I ever had was one that I would teach things and tell him... "You won't understand this for about 10 years". He fully accepted it and today is one of the best martial artists I've ever met.

He had absolute confidence in what I was telling him, and was more interested in learning the skill than trying to find out why it shouldn't work. He runs his own dojo now, and he still tells me..."I was doing something the other day, and I remembered something you told me years ago that makes sense to me now..."

That feels better than "it can't be that simple..." when you're teaching somebody who doesn't know something and they want to argue with you about how something's done. It's incredible that people no longer have faith in their teachers... but it's all through society... not just in dojos. There are so many scam artists out there that have "discovered the secrets of the most formidable fighting system..." that it's sickening.

My teacher used to tell me "you can do it that way, but after you UNLEARN it that way, try this and it'll work..."

Yeah, I know I'm a heretic... I should have been arguing with all those real masters I studied with instead of just takin them at their word...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#370417 - 02/12/08 12:42 PM Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits [Re: wristtwister]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA


Quote:

"You won't understand this for about 10 years". He fully accepted it and today is one of the best martial artists I've ever met.




With all due respect, (coming from a utilitarian standpoint), a 10 year model for understanding indicates either ineffective teaching or overly complex technique.

Good, functional technique should not take that long to understand or to be able to do.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#370418 - 02/12/08 01:01 PM Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits [Re: MattJ]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Or that the teaching is layered and that every time you pass into a new layer your depth of understanding increases. You get loads of "Oh, that's what he meant" moments. Illustrates perfectly the point I was trying to make in my Taiji artlcle Here

I don't think many would say Bossman's teaching isn't functional....just get's more functional the more you think about it, practice and immerse yourself in it. But as you said, , but I agree with Grady...very reflective on society.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#370419 - 02/12/08 02:06 PM Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits [Re: wristtwister]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Wrist

I don't think we are that far apart in how we view things.

What I was getting at is that I often find a lack of consistant effect when using DM/Kyusho techniques.
Not talking about the percussive stuff--I'm talking about the more "light" touch/PP stuff here.

I can get a point on one guy and drop him to his knees while the next 3 it does nothing--or just hurts a little.

(could just be me---but a lot of the Kyusho stuff I have done to me is more in the "if you hit hard enough everything is a pressure point" catagory than not.)

A elbow to the face etc does have a largely/generally reliable effect.
Sure its not 100% either...nothing is.

Again, deling with the more light touch stuff here---its hard enough to get a punch in on bobbing weaving target--pretty sure its going to be even harder trying to hit a teeny-tiny little spot on the same guy trying to hit me as well.

Don't get me wrong---interesting area of study--just not sure of its ultility outside of the hands of an expert.

I've got a good friend that is really into Taji/and some other internal arts.
HIS teacher firmly belives in PP techniques---he just does not teach them, because HIS master back in china was the only one in their school that could get them to work in the chaos of an actual fight with any degree of relaibity.....and since he feels that his teacher was much more skilled than he is...he just does not spend much time on there use.

One his masters warnings about DM was that there are very few points that will cause instant death or incapaction----most take some time to take effect. And a guy dying 3-5 days after being DM is really scary---but does you little good if he already beat you death during the fight itself.

He also told a story of a 2 guys back in the day--having a fight and one "death touching" the other--the touchee begged the to "release"the strike and he was refused--so he went home got a meat cleaver and ambushed the dude--and killed him---beleving he was going to die anyway.

Maybe true--maybe not--but a good story none-the-less.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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