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#370380 - 11/18/07 01:31 PM Re: Boy dies from one hit [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
The only time wristtwister was wrong was when he thought he had made a mistake.
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#370381 - 11/18/07 02:03 PM Re: Boy dies from one hit [Re: BrianS]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Well, Brian,
if you'd bothered to follow the discussion Ed and I have had over the past year or so, you'd know that Ed's contention was that a strike to the chest wasn't a repeateable skill that could cause the heart to stop. He's argued every theory outside of actually analyzing the information and making a determination of whether or not striking a DM point could actually cause commotio cordis with any repeatable certainty.

Quote:

The only time wristtwister was wrong was when he thought he had made a mistake.




It's brilliant insights like that which make me realize I was wrong in thinking certain people might actually have some sense. It's an error on my part.

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What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#370382 - 11/18/07 02:54 PM Re: Boy dies from one hit [Re: wristtwister]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
One explanation from kata of the 1 (pause) 1-2 punches to the CV 17 point might be to increase the probability of hitting the point on the T-wave, thereby increasing the chances of cardiac arrest.
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#370383 - 11/18/07 05:29 PM Re: Boy dies from one hit [Re: underdog]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Lies, lies and damn statistics...

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#370384 - 11/18/07 05:54 PM Re: Boy dies from one hit [Re: eyrie]
Aeras Offline
Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 76
Loc: Colorado
Easy solution...somebody write mythbusters.
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"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies simply because they become fashions."- G.K. Chesterton

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#370385 - 11/18/07 05:59 PM Re: Boy dies from one hit [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

It's simple physics and geometry.



exactly. striking with sufficient impact, with an approximate but appropriate angle to an approximate but appropriate area, is wielding physics...the rest is left largely to chance in a chaotic moment.


The biggest problem with trying to compare an accidental baseball in the chest death to intentional dim mak, is the timing. There is no way someone can time a strike with a 200 millisecond tolerance. and thats what the study of this phenomenon says...the most critical thing about the whole phenomenon is the system being hit within a certain span of it's cycle. have a nother look at it...the link is floating around somewhere here or the other thread.

There is no way a pitcher could do that on purpose, so it's called a tragic accident. whether from a pitcher's mound or from grappling range, there is no way to know that critical window of cycle. therefore, it is left to chance.


Can you actually time strikes to capitolize on the bodily cycles of your opponent? I've heard of taking advantage of breathing cycles when you talk to boxers....but heartbeat and cardiac signaling? sorry, that goes too far 'out there' for me to buy into.

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#370386 - 11/18/07 10:15 PM Re: Boy dies from one hit [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

striking with sufficient impact, with an approximate but appropriate angle to an approximate but appropriate area




How about striking to an exact location at an exact angle? That's how DM trains... Since you obviously don't train in DM, it's pretty heady to completely discount the training without knowing anything about it. The 12 DM katas are designed to get you to the "right place" to make that particular angular strike on a specific point, but you wouldn't know that... only that you don't have an explanation for the results, so it can't work.

Quote:

There is no way a pitcher could do that on purpose,




Another assumption on your part... what about "throwing at the batter?" I played ball most of my life, and that happened all the time. Was the pitcher trying to kill the batter... probably not, but you seem to have more information than anyone else about that, so how do you read the motives of a baseball pitcher?

Quote:

Can you actually time strikes to capitolize on the bodily cycles of your opponent?




The hitting points are designed on the "waxing and waning of chi", so the short answer is "yes". The meridians are operative on 2 hour cycles, and can be activated by striking other special points in the body to make them active... but since you don't believe in any of this, why bother with the detailed explanation? All you need to do to learn a lot is to read some acupuncture books and learn something about meridian theory... but, of course, you'd rather rail on the "can't" side of things than actually do some study and find out the answers for yourself.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#370387 - 11/18/07 11:24 PM Re: Boy dies from one hit [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
again, the argument is not meant to be taken personally. I assume you strike hard and where it hurts - I'm not denying you that assumption.


first, I noticed a typo on my part - the window someone would have to hit within was found to be 20 milliseconds (not 200). The impact has to happen within this window prior to the T-wave peak.

How do you detect a T-wave peak by looking at someone? no known method I'm aware of - I assume the way the researchers detect it is with hooking up an electrocardiogram.


let's say you can sense someone's biorythms as accurate as an EKG. Human reaction times are in the range of 200 milliseconds. (not to mention adjustment for the time it takes to strike). Thats a magnitude slower than the T-wave window.
I can see what those numbers mean in my head...and I picture it as even more remote than someone being able to repeatably target punch 1 particular blade on an occilating fan set on hi speed. of course sometimes they will hit it by the laws of probability.

I don't think it's a pessimistic view. I can't see any theoretical or practical basis for making a connection between the commotio cordis / baseball to chest phenomenon to Dim Mak or any other striking method - other than the similarities in probability.

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#370388 - 11/19/07 02:39 PM Re: Boy dies from one hit [Re: Ed_Morris]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Ed

Another way to look at it would be to compare the # of children to the # of adults that die each year under similer circumstance.

It could go both ways there---adults my not be as prone to such sudden deaths as children--presumably their hearts are stonger or they just have more fat protecting them....at least I do.

On the other hand they have a greater risk of having some kind of heart damage already--weakened hearts, prior injure, clogged arteries, etc. So it might get a "false" reading.

Not sure what the stats on adults would tell us---but it would probably be interesting.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#370389 - 11/19/07 04:36 PM Re: Boy dies from one hit [Re: cxt]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
how many adults do you know that play little league?

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