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#369639 - 11/12/07 11:45 AM some karate video's for your viewing pleasure
student_of_life Offline
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#369640 - 11/12/07 01:10 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
butterfly Offline
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SOL,

Thanks for sharing. But was unsure if you were looking for critical comments or not, good or otherwise.

I don't know about kata...so I can't comment. The instructor seems to have really good speed.

My concern was for showing the timing bits and that last show of the other black belt hitting the pads.

For the timing of the defense against the front kick, the kick was aimed to miss and not hit, takes the fun out of a defensive rebuttal when when you really know you are not going to get tagged, even moderately.

But as far as the pad work, I would say poor to 'midl'n.' There was no real need for the Thai/Kickboxing pads since the round kicks were relatively light and didn't have follow through---they were snapped just past the surface and didn't have requisite body weight in the kick to have 'real' impact.

Also, for real use, the punches didn't seem to have much on them either or have a good guard from which to throw them in case there were counters aimed at the face.

I understand that there are stylistic differences that have to be considered, but with the use of the pads I thought there might be the implication of heavier hits or a more realistic stance and face guard from which to throw these techniques.

Didn't know if you wanted the comments, but thought I would respond since you showed the videos. Again, thanks for sharing.

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#369641 - 11/12/07 03:45 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: butterfly]
student_of_life Offline
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i hadn't planed on discussing it because don't know the man working on the pads or spoken with sensei rokah as to the purpose of the drills or demo's, i simply found them on youtube and decided to post them as demo's.

i agree with your remarks though, not alot of power or a solid looking delivery system. maybe it was just a drill/demo of timing and distance and control? sorry i don't have the answers, lol.
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#369642 - 11/12/07 03:50 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: butterfly]
Anonymous
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I looked at his Heian Shodan. Is stepping BEFORE punching not a principal that is important to you?

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#369643 - 11/12/07 04:40 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure
student_of_life Offline
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me? i just do what ever it takes. if you want to ask sensei avi rokah, email him?
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#369644 - 11/12/07 04:57 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
Ed_Morris Offline
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in your opinion, do you consider the videos to be good examples of Shotokan movement?

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#369645 - 11/12/07 05:27 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Ed_Morris]
student_of_life Offline
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yes, as i understand shotokan's movement to be, these video's are very representative of sensai nishyama's shotokan. however for best representation, consult sensai nishyama personally. the content of the video are some solid basic principal, upon which numerous more training drills are built upon. what i'm trying to say is that this is a good example, but inly a small portion of, not then entire thing.

some one asked if steping before pnching was not a principal of ours, simply because no one did them in the short videos. of coarse what you see in the video, and so, so much more.
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#369646 - 11/12/07 05:48 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure
student_of_life Offline
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i had to reread you post again, and what makes you think he's not punching and stepping, thats just one application to that move. there are others, like he could be punching to the face, pulling on his opponets arm, and kneeing him in the pills. or he could be tiger striking to the throat, while pulling on the opponents arm and kicking to the shin. arn't these core principals where you train?
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#369647 - 11/12/07 07:50 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
Shonuff Offline
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In my opinion the videos posted show the kind of movement, technique and practice that gives Shotokan a bad name.

Whats interesting is that if you look at footage of Nishiyama when he was a young man his movements were so much more fluid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3doBN7ad8U

It looks like Sensei Rokah has learned by copying the movements of the old man as opposed to learning how someone fully able bodied would move.

In contrast:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWTspBwfKwk

One can see clearly how the practitioners move with relaxed bodies that snap to rigidity at the completion of the techniques.
It is still only one way of displaying the art but to my mind it is a much better example of Shotokan.
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#369648 - 11/12/07 10:41 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Shonuff]
hedkikr Offline
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Loved the B&W archival footage.

Anyway, whenever video is posted (just like a comment or question), responses are in order - positive or negative. Just maintain decorum & a sense of respect (if deserved).

Sorry but your sensei isn't in the league. The 1st thing I saw in his kata was a terribly bent rear leg during every zenkutsu-dachi (front stance) performed. This is a "fatal-flaw" for Shotokan.

The drills have that "mimic" quality (doesn't understand but doing the best he can to look like what he believes is good technique). Leaving the punching hand out for any length of time (no immediate recoil) is not a Shotokan characteristic. Many people will leave the punching hand out to demo a technique allowing everyone to see it. Punching & kicking drills shouldn't be done any different than for competition or SD. Anyone leaving their hand out is asking to have it grabbed (the handle).

No impact w/ either punch or kick - why use the pads, the asst could have used his body w/o fear of injury.

So my 2 cents (just so others not familiar w/ Shotokan won't get the impression that this is "good" Shotokan) on a scale of "1" (don't teach) to "5" (I want to learn from you)...this guy's a "2.5".

owari

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#369649 - 11/13/07 06:09 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: hedkikr]
student_of_life Offline
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(bits own tounge off) thanks for your opnions
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#369650 - 11/13/07 10:51 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: hedkikr]
student_of_life Offline
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actually, no i can't let that slide. your saying that a decades long student of a world famous and rekown technition is making a "fatal mistake"? sensei nishiyama is the one who, in the early days of martial arts migrition to the west was the one who spent the majority of his time learning and explaining the fine points of power generation and technique (acording to modern physical science) to his students. this is the way we do it, obvisouly wrong to your views, however the leg is ment to have that degree of bend in it to allow the hip joint to maintain a suppleness that allows for fluid power transfer from the floor to the target.. thank goodness you hold no monoply on proper body dynamics, neither do we. you do it your way for a reason, we do it our way for our reasons, next time try asking why instead of getting your ass up on that horse and telling it "like it is"
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#369651 - 11/13/07 10:56 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Shonuff]
student_of_life Offline
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"In my opinion the videos posted show the kind of movement, technique and practice that gives Shotokan a bad name."

sensei rokah is a damn fine example of ITKF shotokan karate, i can't speak for any other organization only what i understand of the one i train.
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#369652 - 11/13/07 11:50 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
hedkikr Offline
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Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
In KATA (not in sparring or fighting) the rear leg must remain strait. This is not a matter of 1 style's opinion vs. another. It's the way Nishiyama taught.

Maybe I'll have to ask Frank Smith. ("Who" you ask? ...He's only the best fighter out of Nishiyama's camp in the '60's & '70's before tournament competition became a game of padded tag).

Back leg strait for zenkutsu-dachi...anyone else out there disagree? Look it up.

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#369653 - 11/13/07 12:07 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: hedkikr]
student_of_life Offline
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kata is kumite is kihon, to be correct. and if your asking who im asking you can quote michelle critch, a personal choice of hishiyama sensei for 3 years in a row now to rerresent traditional karate as a whole out of the entire world. she is also a world champion competerot and regularaly attands all of sensei's training camps and comps for the last 20 years. some what mroe current then the 70's eh?

our reason for having a certin degree of bend in the back leg is because with your bakc leg straight, it pulls on the hip flexor, in tuen pulling in on your lower back, causeing a foward lunbar flexion of the spine, this out ward flexion destroys power transfer between the upper and lower body, and places a huge ammount of force to the low back area, making it prone to long term damage. heving a small bend is more natural and allows your body to accept and redirect force to the proper locations that are equiped to deal with it. bend the knee a bit, just a bit. is this bend worth this kind of venom?
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#369654 - 11/13/07 01:22 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
Raul Perez Offline
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Is it worth the venom probably not.

comming from a system that shares similar masters in the lineage of Shotokan we keep the back leg straight in kata.
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#369655 - 11/13/07 02:03 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
yes, the backleg straight is a fundamental.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m3GHzVq-QQ

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#369656 - 11/13/07 02:18 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

"In my opinion the videos posted show the kind of movement, technique and practice that gives Shotokan a bad name."

sensei rokah is a damn fine example of ITKF shotokan karate, i can't speak for any other organization only what i understand of the one i train.





Hi
My thoughts.

If I visited your school to look at the possibilities of training and (judging by the videos) considering what would I get out of it at its present state then the
answer would be nothing apart from some pad work practice and people to hold the pads.
I donít know what rank your instructor is but I think he needs to go and train with some one of repute with a higher rank.
No disrespect but that is one of the reasons they have seminars. He might be a good sensie but he (like most people) more than likely needs guidance.The correct guidance.
Or maybe politics gets in the way of seminars?
Everything about those videos on a basic level is leaving a person wide open to getting hit and hurt.


I can remember a shotokan school where I use to train at ( not my normal style) where the instructors attended constant seminars with high ranking instructors and the teachings were passed on to us.
We could see the difference in our instructors when they returned.


Jude

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#369657 - 11/13/07 02:28 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I think there should always be moderation. The back leg can't be bent too much, or it will not be a front stance. However, if it is "locked" out then you are losing alot in the way of proper body dynamics to transfer relaxed power. I would say that just a bent back leg does not proper or relaxed power generation make. I say this because the videos you posted contain no relaxed power generation or fluidity at all.
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#369658 - 11/13/07 02:31 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Raul Perez]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
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Quote:

Is it worth the venom probably not.

comming from a system that shares similar masters in the lineage of Shotokan we keep the back leg straight in kata.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWTspBwfKwk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHBPXdszX-o
Hi

JKA kata.
legs bent or legs straight?
I suppose it differs from person to person.
I keep mine slightly bent.

Jude

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#369659 - 11/13/07 02:41 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
Neko456 Offline
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Look like a good practictioner of Shotokan, some may think he was be a little too vocal on every move. But I found the overall performance solid, and a good represenation of Shotokan.
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#369660 - 11/13/07 03:15 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Neko456]
GriffyGriff Offline
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Quote:

Look like a good practictioner of Shotokan, some may think he was be a little too vocal on every move. But I found the overall performance solid, and a good represenation of Shotokan.




Thanks for the links. I always like to see how other styles practice similar Katas.

But I must say that I personally found the Kata executions to be incredibly poor. I was gob-smacked to see him wearing a Black Belt. That was the standard of a yellow / early-green belt.

No Focus.
No looking before turning and blocking.
No Power in the blocks.
Techniques pulled. (That was a bad Maegeri).
No apparent understanding of certain techniques.
Walking Stance should have a straight rear leg. It looks like a longer cat stance.
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#369661 - 11/13/07 03:31 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: GriffyGriff]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
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Quote:

Quote:

Look like a good practictioner of Shotokan, some may think he was be a little too vocal on every move. But I found the overall performance solid, and a good represenation of Shotokan.




Thanks for the links. I always like to see how other styles practice similar Katas.

But I must say that I personally found the Kata executions to be incredibly poor. I was gob-smacked to see him wearing a Black Belt. That was the standard of a yellow / early-green belt.

No Focus.
No looking before turning and blocking.
No Power in the blocks.
Techniques pulled. (That was a bad Maegeri).
No apparent understanding of certain techniques.
Walking Stance should have a straight rear leg. It looks like a longer cat stance.







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWTspBwfKwk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHBPXdszX

Huh?

Which kata video are you refering to?

Jude

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#369662 - 11/13/07 03:34 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
butterfly Offline
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Posts: 3012
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Jude,

Pretty sure he was referring to the original kata presentation ones from Student O' Life.

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#369663 - 11/13/07 04:03 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: butterfly]
jude33 Offline
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Edited by jude33 (11/13/07 04:04 PM)

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#369664 - 11/13/07 04:06 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: GriffyGriff]
Neko456 Offline
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Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
My Quote - Look like a good practictioner of Shotokan, some may think he was a little too vocal on every move. But I found the overall performance solid, and a good represenation of Shotokan.

GG's Quote -

No Focus.
No looking before turning and blocking.
No Power in the blocks.
Techniques pulled. (That was a bad Maegeri).
No apparent understanding of certain techniques.
Walking Stance should have a straight rear leg. It looks like a longer cat stance.

But I must say that I personally found the Kata executions to be incredibly poor. I was gob-smacked to see him wearing a Black Belt. That was the standard of a yellow / early-green belt.


My Reply - For what he was trying to do I found that he had enough of all the things you said he has missing. My God it was a practice Video not competition. His level of performance was fine for his level and purpose.

I don't believe you need to have a lot of facial expression to show focus or exaggerated head or striking/blocking moves to note change of direction or power in forms (thats certainly not what you do in a fight) or super loud face quakeing kias. Espeicailly in a practice kata demo.

For a Black belt level showing basic movement of a Kata his performance was fine. Would it place him in a competition probably not but I'm sure he could up the performance if in Competition. But for the purpose of the video he did fine.
Have I seen better for sure but I've also seen alot worse.

Thats one thing about putting personal performances on video and posting theres always someone expecting Grand Championship performance from practice videos.

Opinion are like a$$ holes, you have yours, I have mines. For the purpose of the video his kata were fine, IMHO.


Edited by Neko456 (11/13/07 04:13 PM)
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#369665 - 11/13/07 04:13 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Neko456]
student_of_life Offline
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no neko!, its ok man, you go! you get out alive and tell my story!! i'll hold them off while you escape!!
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#369666 - 11/13/07 04:19 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
Victor Smith Offline
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Posts: 3219
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Just for quick contrast I regrettably offer the following, which seem to be done for competition and/or demonstration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24SKbTD1Q...ead.php?t=62216


Edited by Victor Smith (11/13/07 04:20 PM)
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#369667 - 11/13/07 04:33 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Neko456]
GriffyGriff Offline
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Registered: 01/28/04
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Quote:

My Quote - Look like a good practictioner of Shotokan, some may think he was a little too vocal on every move. But I found the overall performance solid, and a good represenation of Shotokan.
......

Opinion are like a$$ holes, you have yours, I have mines. For the purpose of the video his kata were fine, IMHO.




How many 'a$$holes' do you actually have?

Dude I was refering to the initial 4 Kata Links Heinan Yondan/Sandan/Nidan/Shodan.

The standard is poor!
A Black Belt should never perform at such a poor level, unless he was highlighting how NOT to do this to his students. (Which I am now confident that this is indeed the case).
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#369668 - 11/13/07 04:35 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Victor Smith]
GriffyGriff Offline
Good Egg,
Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Earth
Quote:

Just for quick contrast I regrettably offer the following, which seem to be done for competition and/or demonstration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24SKbTD1Q...ead.php?t=62216




Brilliant!!
I LOVE the unco-ordinated effect!!
(Reminds me of the Monty Python race for those with no sense of direction).

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#369669 - 11/13/07 04:44 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
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Quote:

no neko!, its ok man, you go! you get out alive and tell my story!! i'll hold them off while you escape!!




Well its not that bad. Perhaps some on going seminars with some JKA instructors should put things right.!!

As they say here sometimes "Dont worry be happy".

Judes thoughts.
If Jude is going to train any other shotokan style kata, then Jude would train it as close to the JKA/ top shotokan instructors version as he could.

Then more than likely adapt it to what ever techniques and the principles it is meant to be for.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (11/13/07 04:50 PM)

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#369670 - 11/13/07 04:47 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: GriffyGriff]
Neko456 Offline
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Posts: 3260
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Again that's just your opinion, not saying you are right or wrong. But I doubt if this was a how not to video. A Black belt is not on point every time he moves. These were obviously practice video demos showing basic kata movement. Not grand championship performances.

As for bent leg I've seen Shotokan stylist do it straight and bent, pending the teacher. They fight sometimes from a forward stance with the rear leg bent and straighten upon contact.

Student-for-life quote - sensei rokah is a damn fine example of ITKF shotokan karate, i can't speak for any other organization only what i understand of the one i train.

End results we obviously expect different things from a BB doing relaxed kata in a practice videos. I'm not a Shotokan stylist so its alright if they do things slightly different then I do. Doesn't make it wrong, if it is effective.
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#369671 - 11/13/07 04:48 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: GriffyGriff]
jude33 Offline
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Which link?

Can you post it otherwise this is getting confusing

Can we keep this conversation civil guys?

Jude

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#369672 - 11/13/07 04:51 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
sensei avi rokah trains with sensei nishiyama. nishiyama was offered the JKA after Nakayama's passing. this is what he's doing.

who do you train shotokan with?
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#369673 - 11/13/07 04:51 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: GriffyGriff]
jude33 Offline
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Posts: 1539
Hi so which link were you refering to?

Jude

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#369674 - 11/13/07 04:59 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

sensei avi rokah trains with sensei nishiyama. nishiyama was offered the JKA after Nakayama's passing. this is what he's doing.

who do you train shotokan with?




Did.

I can remember a shotokan school where I use to train at ( not my normal style) where the instructors attended constant seminars with high ranking instructors and the teachings were passed on to us.
We could see the difference in our instructors when they returned

The place where I trained had the main Japanese instructor as Shira Sensie and other visiting instructors.

I also at some time trained with guys who had Enoeda sensie as their main instructor.

The infleunces by both of these sensie could be seen.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (11/13/07 05:02 PM)

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#369675 - 11/13/07 05:02 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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when did you study? and what rank do you hold with the JKA or the ITKF?
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#369676 - 11/13/07 05:06 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Answer none.

I didnt grade in shotokan.(where did I say that?)
I trained with shotokan schools.


My style is a mixture but initialy wado.
At the moment looking at competing kyokishin and/or even going through the K.U.G.B or Kanazawas sensie system is another option. Kanazawas sensie system incorperates katas and techniques found in goju. Naha te

Not to sure yet.
Quite happy just training at the moment
Jude



Edited by jude33 (11/13/07 05:28 PM)

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#369677 - 11/13/07 05:21 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: GriffyGriff]
student_of_life Offline
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your turn.

our definitions of focus are of coarse different. kime= mentally and physically complete at the moment of impact. you don't need to screw up your face and make your best arnold looking body to achieve focus, espicially power. power comes from sing your body in the proper sequence, power can be achieved in many ways. you catch one of thoes kinds of blocks behind the elbow and your gonna stumble.

bad mae geri. again, i believe your mistaken with the idea that each move must empty the bowels in one clean shot. place to much emphasis on one technique and the next one will be harder to start/slower/weaker. unless im incorect, which is often, let me know why you feel you could take one of thoes to the groin.

i agree with the observation that he is moving in a direction before he looks in that direction, as i understand it, the mind leads the body.

i've discussed the reason why his rear leg is not completly straight. read back through my posts for my explination.

"No apparent understanding of certain techniques."

please explain which techniques your talking about. or could i see a reference of what you consider to be your ideal? or perhaps your self in motion?

i would add, that sensei rokah is a multiple national champ in the us, and a world wide competetor and champ as well. not with the material in the vids, but his understanding of ITKF shotokan should not be questioned. if you want someone who trains in this stuff, please ask me and i will try my best. talk about how its not what you do, and i'll defned it anyway.

no disrepect intended. i would love to discus this. this is what i do, and what i love.
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#369678 - 11/13/07 05:21 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
GriffyGriff Offline
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Quote:

Hi so which link were you refering to?
Jude




Hi Jude, I was refering to the 1st post and all the links under the "Kata" caption
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#369679 - 11/13/07 05:55 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
GriffyGriff Offline
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No Worries. It is not intended as an attack, just a critique.

Quote:

bad mae geri



I have always believed that the way you train is the way you react.
The Kick does not incorporate any hip-twist or pivoting projection.
(The hips are kept square on).

Quote:

i agree with the observation that he is moving in a direction before he looks in that direction, as i understand it, the mind leads the body.



When you drive your car and pull out from a parking spot into a main road, you look 1st.
Your mind dictated that the act of looking is paramount.


Quote:

"No apparent understanding of certain techniques."



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acvQLjT4BhI Heinan Nidan. 1st 3 moves comprise of a block, and arm-break and a further strike. These seem to be performed too mechanically.
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#369680 - 11/13/07 06:23 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: GriffyGriff]
student_of_life Offline
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"I have always believed that the way you train is the way you react.
The Kick does not incorporate any hip-twist or pivoting projection.
(The hips are kept square on)."

yes, turning your hips into kicks = more power. however, alternate bunkai for these moves can indicate close in fighting. the previous uchi uke is used to pull in on an opponent whilst simultaniously kneeing him. if theres no time for a hip to be drawn into position to be swug in, you can use the pulling action as a bonus to a forcefll knee or kick. just options.

"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acvQLjT4BhI Heinan Nidan. 1st 3 moves comprise of a block, and arm-break and a further strike. These seem to be performed too mechanically. "

alternate bunkai sugjests that it could be a pell of a wrists grab, then the application of a chcken wing style preasure to the attackers arm. the level of the blocks chagnes from style to style as well. there are still posibilities.

i'll ask my sensei about the lack of head movement, it may well be a mistake.

*edit*

in addition, in case of the simultanious pulling action with the rising of the knee, there would be a small presence of hip twist there too. becase, in the previous movement, your hips were in the 45 position in relation to your opponent, and then turning into square or even beyond for the delevery of the kicking or kneeing technique.


Edited by student_of_life (11/13/07 06:26 PM)
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#369681 - 11/13/07 06:31 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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quote]your turn.

bad mae geri. again, i believe your mistaken with the idea that each move must empty the bowels in one clean shot. place to much emphasis on one technique and the next one will be harder to start/slower/weaker. unless im incorect, which is often, let me know why you feel you could take one of thoes to the groin.

love to discus this. this is what i do, and what i love.




Hi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOL692Wtguw
.42

Kokutsu-dachi
Tatzuna Kame
Followed by a kick
Then the punches



Just a small point what would you say this technique is for?



Cat stance/Kokutsu-dachi
Tatzuna Kame
Can be a grappling application,
grab the outside fingers ,
rotate upwards, lock the joint .kick to the groin wouldnt require the follow on punches. Unless it missed.

Mae geri to the stomach or even a knee to the chin while still holding the fingers? would more than likely give an opening for the face.?
Or there again they might not even be punches. More like finger breaks? Disguised as punches?

The next thing I would like to ask.
I presume this is the kick refered to where the groin kick is in place of the side kick?
Taking the kata back to its original form

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOL692Wtguw
.24
What is your intention with this technique?
It is a vast change for shotokan to take a kata back to its seemingly original roots.

Your thoughts?

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#369682 - 11/13/07 07:02 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

sensei avi rokah trains with sensei nishiyama. nishiyama was offered the JKA after Nakayama's passing. this is what he's doing.

who do you train shotokan with?




Looks like I have miss read the whole thing.
The video seems to show your shotokan to be based purely on competition with no face contact with some after thought to the meaning of kata.

Either way I dont like the training methods that I see on the videos.
It might be fine for competiton but it untrains for use in a real confrontation.

Do you guys ever go 45 degrees to the attacker?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (11/13/07 07:03 PM)

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#369683 - 11/13/07 08:10 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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the shuto in backstance could be a "clinching" position, then foot movement is a sweep. the setting to the hip of the hand that is going to uchi uke is a hooking punch to the jaw of your opponent, it strikes along the way. bringing the arm back accross in an elbow strike or a forearm strike to the collar bone or side of the neck. then yo grab with that arm and pull them into a knee strike, and follow up with a push and a reverse punch to an open target.

or

your hikite intercepts an incoming attack, and pulls your other arm across your body and under your opponents arm, grab around your opponents tricept, or loose clothing, and pull him into a knee strike or shin kick. use your shoulder to push him back off ballance and land a oi zuki to the chin/nose or any other target.

i'm not huge fan of fine joint maniluplation, ie wrist and finger locks in general, however that kata sequence could teach that principal.

the movements at .24? are you talking about the high open hand block with the high inward shto? then kick the uchi uke?
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#369684 - 11/13/07 08:24 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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face punching is allowed in competetion, however competetion kyokshin lacks this rule.

do we ever turn 45 degrees? there was a max of a few mintes of video there, do you, for the 3rd friggen time, think that this is all the ITKF trains? read the first few posts i made and stop asking the same questions over and over again.

it's not my intention to make you like the way we train, if every one did the martial arts world would progress very slowly, the more diverse ways out there, the more options we all have to train.
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#369685 - 11/13/07 08:51 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
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#369686 - 11/13/07 09:02 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: GriffyGriff]
student_of_life Offline
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simply to play devils advoacte here for a second. your choice for good kata is clasical JKA, a great choice for a shotokan stylist, however ask any mma man whats wrong with JKA kata pratice and you'll get just as frustrated as i did when you fellows tell me how bad sessei rokah's preformance was.
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#369687 - 11/13/07 09:14 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
GriffyGriff Offline
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OK, I understand.
But (for me) the difference in the initial Kata links and these above are quite apparent. The later links shows Focus, Intent and Power.
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#369688 - 11/13/07 09:45 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: GriffyGriff]
student_of_life Offline
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kanazawa's preformance dose carry more intensity than the one's i posted, as he is an icon for shotokan stylists alike.
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#369689 - 11/13/07 10:40 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Victor Smith]
Neko456 Offline
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Victor were those Isshin-ryu bad guys performing in that video? I wonder what they were trying to do? Was that a don't train like this video or was it kata done with self expression?

Certainly they were not serious. The Shotokan guy looks good now, unless you like the uncontrolled timing and power in the self expression movement.
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#369690 - 11/13/07 10:56 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: GriffyGriff]
Neko456 Offline
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GG what I see in the two demo is ones in a Instructional video by a Karate Master and the other is a demo video by an Karate Instructor.

One was done for precesion and precises movement the other was just to demo the kata moves. His belt is tied, Gi strachted and he evens returns to the exact same spot that the kata start from. The Karate demo is more relaxed close but definitely not as precise.

If you were looking for that kind of performance I see why you find the 1st demo was disheartening, but they were taped for different reasons. One was done to be viewed by other Instructors or Masters or anybody to view, the others was done to be shown to get his students at least at that level.

You can tell that both are Shotokan stylist.
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#369691 - 11/13/07 11:06 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Neko456]
BrianS Offline
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I disagree. What sense would it make to do a kata at someone else's level unless you wanted them to stay there. When you show a kata, you ahow the proper way to do it to the best of your ability.
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#369692 - 11/14/07 01:42 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: BrianS]
GriffyGriff Offline
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Quote:

I disagree. What sense would it make to do a kata at someone else's level unless you wanted them to stay there. When you show a kata, you show the proper way to do it to the best of your ability.




ABSOLUTELY!!!!

You should strive to perform the Kata as close to perfection as you can.

(This is like a similar thread where I got outvoted by people who just didn't get it).

Brian... you get it in spades !!!!
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#369693 - 11/14/07 01:58 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: GriffyGriff]
Neko456 Offline
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Whats its call is a learning process. What good would it be to do teach kata doing it everytime the best you can. I mean the basic student will miss most of what you are doing. Learning is a process of compounding upon your foundation a step at a time. One of the hardest part of teaching is polishing the fine points between 1st kyu and Nidan they almost feel like you are nick picking because they have the basic and maybe pretty good technique but you want it better.

Really doing any kata at a BB level would be total lost on 10th and 8th kyu yes they'd be in awe but miss most of whats was done and feel they could never reach that level.

There is a purpose for decomposing and slowing things down wheather you will admit it or not. It helps them see what really going on, as they grow a step at a time.
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#369694 - 11/14/07 02:24 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
hedkikr Offline
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You state that your sensei is a multi-national champ...which organization?

I still maintain that the small example you posted weren't good examples. Would you have better examples to post.

BTW, I trained Shotokan under Ray Dalke in Riverside too many years ago. He is a contemporary of Frank Smith. Dalke sensei is now retired but is still a tough customer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPKYI0hE4Nk

BTW the quote "kata is kumite is fighting" was misinterpreted. The meaning is that you train w/ the same intensity. Kata & kumite are training, fighting is for real.

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#369695 - 11/14/07 04:37 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

face punching is allowed in competetion, however competetion kyokshin lacks this rule.

do we ever turn 45 degrees? there was a max of a few mintes of video there, do you, for the 3rd friggen time, think that this is all the ITKF trains? read the first few posts i made and stop asking the same questions over and over again.





Then perhaps just standing and beating someone to a punch while still having the face in line for an incoming punch is considered a training method?

I tend to move at least my head out of the way if I am quick enough and wouldnt be that close with my hands down anyhow.45 degrees would be a better option?


You sound(read) the same way my(present) woman reprimands me!!


Quote:


it's not my intention to make you like the way we train, if every one did the martial arts world would progress very slowly, the more diverse ways out there, the more options we all have to train.






Remember most of us, (me included and pound to a penny of %%%% I make plenty of mistakes) are still students regardless of how highly some people rate their own rank.


Showing methods that are wide open to being discussed wouldnt reflect to well on any organisation unless the full picture could be shown. So would you consider posting more videos ?


Personaly I wouldnt post any educational/demonstrative videos because as I said I am still a student.


It might be me but this thread seems to be turning in to a
justify certain training methods/ mistakes because someone is held in high esteem.


Ok your sensie is a champion, good on him for what he has achieved.


Regards the finger breaks.(part of chin na ?) It would seem chin na appears in quite a lot of kata.(from my studies)
One of the reasons I would like to find an instructor.


Just because a person cant perhaps (yet) use them effectively doesnt mean they dont exist or people say they dont like them.

If I in sparring I tried unsuccessfully to throw some one who was bigger and stronger it would be no use saying I dont like that throw. It would mean, it is what I am doing I would have to look at.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (11/14/07 04:41 AM)

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#369696 - 11/14/07 04:53 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: GriffyGriff]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

These are good examples of how to perform Kata

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AambQc8F0ZU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZagZ6egeRbw




I agree.

Kanazawa sensie also includes nahe te kata and applications ( as found in goju ) in his system.

It also seems to me he has studied tai chi, chin na and countless other arts that are related to his own art.

Jude

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#369697 - 11/14/07 06:21 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
Shonuff Offline
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Quote:


i would add, that sensei rokah is a multiple national champ in the us, and a world wide competetor and champ as well. not with the material in the vids, but his understanding of ITKF shotokan should not be questioned.




Everyone should be questioned!

the whole back leg bent thing, like most differences in style, is an aesthetic difference that makes little difference after 5 years training. If it is how you practice then you can use it, if you dont then you cant. Like everything.

I don't like Sensei Rokah's kata. It looked far too rigid and mehanical. That said I think the Kanazawa vids are too exagerated, I prefer somewhere between the two.

Rokah's kata looks like he is trying to hold very mechanical lines due to some sci-fi ideas about body dynamics and power generation. Most of the talk MAists do about body mechanics and power generation is utter crap in my opinion. Any supposed gains are usually unprovable and likely minute.
If you want to generate power, learn the method of your style, practice it from relaxed neautral positions as well as in stance and do it again and again and again and it will get strong. Then practice it against resistance and adjust until you "feel" strongest. Then hit someone and ask them if it hurts. If not hit the gym.

Though I dont like his kata, kata are not an indicator of anything except the stylisations of a particular group. What actually put me off was the other vids.

1) All the folks in those vids had their gaurds in front of their bellies. Anyone who can take a punch and keep going or parry while moving forward will make a man suffer for doing that.
2) They all shuffled around in front stance reducing their general mobility drastically and training themselves into needing an increased amount of space to move in.
3) Why the hell did they all pause after each hit. So the judge can see the point??? You loose any level of fluidity between techniques, leave yourself wide open after each attack and loose any attacking momentum. Boxers and kungfu fighters the world over hear the name Shotokan and think "punch bag" because of this very habit.
Leaving the fist extended is fine if you intend to make use of bridging techniques, but I saw none of that in the vids and it is the vids we are discussing.
4) The vid labelled "invite" showed Rokah stepping in ungaurded and the defender trying to intercept with a long front kick. The kick I can forgive as though impractical for the situation it is just a demo. However moving in without a covering technique or gaurd from that close will get you hit which made it a bad example.
A better example for invite is the vid marked "SEN" as Rokah moved before the opponent inviting the counter attack whih he parried while punching (exploiting the exact weakness I pointed out in point 1 above).
5) All the tehniques shown were against people who moved in the same ISKF Shotokan way. The idea that Karate is only good for defending against karate comes to mind. I can't see anyone in those vids having an easy time adapting to non ISKF tournament fights.

I'm sure this is a good representation of ISKF Shotokan, but like it or not it is what outsiders see and laugh at because it is robotic and bears no resemblance to natural fluid movement that one would need in actual combat.

On the plus side the video marked "Gonosen" was a very good demo of the particular skill.
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#369698 - 11/14/07 09:49 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Shonuff]
Neko456 Offline
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I agree with Shonuff's description of the ippon kumite or fighting drills. I also agree with his definition of ISKF Shotokans and Rokah's Sensei Kata he looks like a big man trying to look like a smaller man and is tight with his movement/techniques. But really thats what I've seen Shotokan look like and he is a fine example of that. I also agree about the other outside fluid styles thinking that Shotokan is for fighting other Karate or Shotokan styles.

But I will say this from the Gung-fu, Silat,Capiero, Kenpo and personal experience fighting these guys, they may not be fluid but they hold true to what they do. DON'T GET HIT BY THEM this is an informal conseus that I ran across the board from styles that worked with them. It is not fluid until mastered probably but, If they hit you, they pack a punuch and a front kick. Their one shot one kill philosophy they live and die by. Going by the fluid Kenpo, Gung-fu, Silat and Caperio fighters they were hurt badly by the Shotokan's practictioners strike. I was hurt but it didn't drop me like they reported. I was able to continue but damn that hurt. They can take a hit also.

Most of the SHOTOKAN KARATE I've worked with or heard about knows how to HIT!!! like most Karate. Shotokan maybe a little more Robotic looking or some maybe not. But It hurts when they hit you, and thats what counts. This is from Personal experience.


Edited by Neko456 (11/14/07 09:55 AM)

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#369699 - 11/14/07 12:09 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Neko456]
hedkikr Offline
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I train Shito-ryu. Compared w/ traditional Shotokan, we maintain higher-shorter stance (mobility), keep out hands higher & concentrate on speed & power (not power only).

That said, our kata are a bit more fluid but, to anyone not familiar w/ karate, it may look "robotic" as well.

Also, Shotokan kumite (sparring) looks like any other karate style (more or less) primarily due to international competition standards. It would be difficult for even an experienced practitioner to tell who is Shotokan & who is Goju-ryu (2 styles on "opposite" ends of the spectrum) in a bout.

So although I have some issues w/ the sensei's technique, I have to state that the techniques were not "fight-ready" nor were they meant to be.

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#369700 - 11/14/07 01:18 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Shonuff]
student_of_life Offline
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this is good guys.

i can't show you every thing that we do, so all your seeing is a small section of what an ITKF stylist trains. so the ones who are asking questions, ask away. but the one's who are extrapolation as to what exactly what the ppl in the vids are thinking at any point in time, grow up.

"Rokah's kata looks like he is trying to hold very mechanical lines due to some sci-fi ideas about body dynamics and power generation. Most of the talk MAists do about body mechanics and power generation is utter crap in my opinion. Any supposed gains are usually unprovable and likely minute."

the power is not cinsidered to be greater then any other way of power generation. the kind's of power generation strived for by traditional karate-ka's involves less gross motor movement, and more of a sharp body action against the floor, and directed at the opponent. the video's i posted were not for power demonstration.

he moves they way he does (again, just as mch as i know), based on an observation of other punching methods. it's teaching a way of moving the entre body mass toward the target, and to leave minimal room for "give" in any body part, to allow maximum force transfer to the target. the idea is that, when you pnch with say a hay maker, a polular habbit to have some eccess movement in the shoulder, or elbow, or wrist for example, it could occur anywhere on the body where the muslces are not acting in line with the bone structure to best transfer and disperse force. its one way of throwing solid, straight pnches that are being supported with alot of proper muscular contraction. hence the saying, don't hit hard, hit well.

the higher levels of this principal are not coverend in the short video's.

i will try and explain the reasons behind your list.

"1) All the folks in those vids had their gaurds in front of their bellies. Anyone who can take a punch and keep going or parry while moving forward will make a man suffer for doing that."

traditional karate stylists don't usually bring up the arms to cover the head, this is done in almost every other combat sport for obvious reasons. an added layer of protection arond not only a sensative area, but it covers up an area used to score points on in combat sports. i've been told not to cover my head in karate sparing and pratice because: while we spar, we do not want to get good at sparing esentially. what we want is to be better able to avoid danger (self defence) the karate idea of avoiding danger is not sparing with your target, and im not impying that any one else does. the karate idea (our idea) is to apply the techniqe which will get rid of the opponents offensive abilities as soon as posible. it is prefered to go from not even being a target, to in control as quckly as you can, there is not always a need to cover your head, you can simply strike, or move off line and do what ever. while there is nothing wrong with having an extra layer of protection that is the arms up defence, it is not always needed, unless it gets trned into a slug fest.

"2) They all shuffled around in front stance reducing their general mobility drastically and training themselves into needing an increased amount of space to move in."

sensei nishiyama, at his sumer camp this past summer, spent most of the camp an foot work. his latest teachings involve a "kumite" stance about the same width as yoi position. the feet should be around shoulder width apart when in motion, and from there you can spring foward into the target. while the hands are still not up around the head, our feet in motion are mch closer now then they were at the time of the video. it is his latest focus on teaching now, foot work. i guess he feel's like it's been lacking in years gone by.

"3) Why the hell did they all pause after each hit. So the judge can see the point??? You loose any level of fluidity between techniques, leave yourself wide open after each attack and loose any attacking momentum. Boxers and kungfu fighters the world over hear the name Shotokan and think "punch bag" because of this very habit.
Leaving the fist extended is fine if you intend to make use of bridging techniques, but I saw none of that in the vids and it is the vids we are discussing."

this habbit is simply when training at slower speeds to allow the body more time to "remember" the position of a solid strike. of coarse real time, there are no stops.

"4) The vid labelled "invite" showed Rokah stepping in ungaurded and the defender trying to intercept with a long front kick. The kick I can forgive as though impractical for the situation it is just a demo. However moving in without a covering technique or gaurd from that close will get you hit which made it a bad example."

the unguarded movement is the invite, it's prety obvious that any one with a brain will attack an open body like that, and the counter is made as the opponent extends himself for attack. a risky kind of timing, one that can work for or against you. while not the safest way of fighting, its one way of fighting.

"5) All the tehniques shown were against people who moved in the same ISKF Shotokan way. The idea that Karate is only good for defending against karate comes to mind. I can't see anyone in those vids having an easy time adapting to non ISKF tournament fights."

regretably, this often is the case in week to week dojo training. however, i attend 3 seminars annually with high ranking ITKF sensei and in every one so far we have spent time working against HAOV. karate bunkai is desinged for these natral attakcks, i think. the largest benifet that sparing or competetion fighting has in the ITKF world in my mind is not realism, far from it! but it places the student under a certin ammount of stress, and gets them working timing, distance, and technique. technique's are not ment to be "pulled", in karate, they should be fired fully every time, and the distance controled so that contact is not made. not ment for self defence training in the respect of the kinds of attacks, more for timing, distance, and technique.

while these training methods have downfalls, most do. if anyone of you put up video of a particular training drill, or set of drills, there would be aspects of thoes drills that are not emphasized. because drills focus on a single skill, or skill set. of coarse fighting is best training for fighting.

clearer?
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#369701 - 11/14/07 01:27 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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"I tend to move at least my head out of the way if I am quick enough and wouldnt be that close with my hands down anyhow.45 degrees would be a better option?"

moving 45 to the blind side is usally one of the better choices yes. however, the body follows the mind as it were, so there is a down side to your head movement too. short term your head movement protects your head, and thats got to be done sometimes! but the down side is it opens you p for attack along other lines, nless your faster or just plain lucky. get what im saying? its good, and some times a quick fix, or even a tactic.

"Personaly I wouldnt post any educational/demonstrative videos because as I said I am still a student"

i wish i had your humbleness, lol. there are a few video's of me floating around if you want anoter look at some things i'v done. every one is learning, and i don't see whats wrong with having documented footage of my mistakes, haha.

"Regards the finger breaks.(part of chin na ?) It would seem chin na appears in quite a lot of kata.(from my studies)
One of the reasons I would like to find an instructor.


Just because a person cant perhaps (yet) use them effectively doesnt mean they dont exist or people say they dont like them."

go back and read my previous post about this, i agree with you completly. the kata contain alot of grapling/chin-na principals i think too. however, having trained in some wrists and finger locks with combat hapkido, and (aparently) hontai yoshin ryu jujutsu, they are not among my favorite kinds of locks.
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#369702 - 11/14/07 03:32 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

"
go back and read my previous post about this, i agree with you completly. the kata contain alot of grapling/chin-na principals i think too. however, having trained in some wrists and finger locks with combat hapkido, and (aparently) hontai yoshin ryu jujutsu, they are not among my favorite kinds of locks.




I would be interested to see any thing you have on video concerning hontai yoshin ryu jujutsu.

This conversation while it is good doesnt change my mind.
The training videos you posted to me reflect minimum/ or even none face contact competition karate with some thought on kata bunkia.

My thoughts from my point of view on the trad karate I have done to date.

Regards your comment on competition enabling a karate ka to handle pressure

Can training in bare knuckle trad/ competition/ sparring/ karate help a person to handle a real confrontation?

From my limited expereince yes.
To a degree.
The only problem is with this kind of training

Your posted timing video. This is how they train timing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBIlzeeFQ2g


They tend to leave their faces wide open.
Stick their chins in the air.
Have no gaurd up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ncxn0h36NAs

Prime example of one of your associations members getting knocked out in competition by what I am refering to.He was lucky this was in competition. Put this out on the street and what would happen next?
Train like the timing video and what happens?
He gets knocked out.
What is the saying "Train as you fight"?
Dont move your head? Why?

Competition based karate
Go for the point score.
Be to over reliant on single techniques.
Dont always train some basics as high as they should do
They tend to use their favourite competition techniques

Change all that and the ability goes higher.

While it isnt in the best interest to take any kind of punishment I have found the body can absorb a lot once the adrenalin is high. The face wont as your fellow associate member found out on the video.

The training I saw on those training vidoes you posted doesnt take any of this in to account.
Just an after thought. Why are there specific gaurds implied in certain kata? I think the guys in days gone by knew what they were doing.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (11/14/07 04:17 PM)

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#369703 - 11/14/07 04:33 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure *DELETED* [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
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Post deleted by jude33

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#369704 - 11/14/07 04:43 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
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My humble thoughts

He didint get ko'd more like stunned.

He didnt just get hit on the chin he got hit, swept,hit decked and hit again. He had no guard . The guy doing the hitting could have been caught if the other guy had gone 45 degrees. He even had his chin stuck forward .

Reverse punch
front foot sweep
reverse punch
reverse punch

Quote:



i wish i had your humbleness, lol. there are a few video's of me floating around if you want anoter look at some things i'v done. every one is learning, and i don't see whats wrong with having documented footage of my mistakes, haha.





Well it can be worked on. The humbleness.
You wish you had my humbleness?
I wish I was competing . (But using a gaurd and 45 degrees).
Can you please post me a link of your videos?

What level of competition were those two on?
International?
Can anybody compete or is it just members of your organisation?
Post me some more links please ?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (11/14/07 04:48 PM)

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#369705 - 11/14/07 05:12 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Neko456]
GriffyGriff Offline
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Quote:

Whats its call is a learning process. What good would it be to do teach kata doing it everytime the best you can. I mean the basic student will miss most of what you are doing. Learning is a process of compounding upon your foundation a step at a time. ......




Neko456 you miss the point by light-years!

You are ALIVE.... Here and Now!!!

EVERYTHING you do should be to the best of your ability and with the full awareness of now...
Otherwise you are in danger of short-changing yourself.

Do the Kata to the Best you can EACH TIME!!
Then not only will you benifit, but your students will get it in time. In the meantime, they will automatically follow your lead with the high standards that you display.


Hagakure (17th Century Saying):
"Be true to the thought of the moment and avoid distractions. Other than continuing to exert yourself, enter into nothing else. Get to the point of living single-thought by single-thought".
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#369706 - 11/14/07 05:32 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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what guard position's are you refering to in the kata? i likely have bunkai aplications for them, as i assume kata has no guard positions, since it is a record of technique. flowing, agressive technique.

your posted video is a prety sweet example of itkf style goal for kumite. the opponent was cought, and flatened. do you believe the presence of a guard wold have done much to prevent the foot sweep? i don't know if a guard would have done much protecting when your on your way down. your hands are going out to brace your fall. head open regardless. the guard would have done little there, foot work would have been a better option.
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#369707 - 11/14/07 05:51 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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this is the video from the canidian nationals this past may.
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=3...h&plindex=2

and here's the one for 2006
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-2485597636473672795

and here's one for some bunkai we were shown in a seminar
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-...h&plindex=0

while non are spectacular, they are me.lol
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#369708 - 11/14/07 06:20 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

what guard position's are you refering to in the kata? i likely have bunkai aplications for them, as i assume kata has no guard positions, since it is a record of technique. flowing, agressive technique.







A guard found in kata? Can I suggest that if you were to look at medulants input he states a specific guard in a specific kata that he uses on a specific thread.


There are others but I think you should find them.
Or perhaps post your question in the kata thread?.
Quote:



your posted video is a prety sweet example of itkf style goal for kumite. the opponent was cought, and flatened. do you believe the presence of a guard wold have done much to prevent the foot sweep?




A decent gaurd or even side movement would have stopped/avoided the first punch.

It looked to me like the footsweep should have been expected. That seems to be so common a move. Its hard to tell from a vidoe but the sweep didnt look that powerfull.


Quote:


i don't know if a guard would have done much protecting when your on your way down. your hands are going out to brace your fall. head open regardless. the guard would have done little there, foot work would have been a better option.






Can I suggest you put these comments up as a new thread and see what the replies are?
Might make a good topic.
So as you so state perhaps its your turn?

Were the two on the video international?
Can any body enter your organisations events?
Can you give me the links to other videos?



Jude


Edited by jude33 (11/14/07 06:37 PM)

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#369709 - 11/14/07 06:28 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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its with the ITKF, .......thought you would have pieced that one together.

its a national competetion....thats what i ment by this is the nationals

any one can enter, however the tourniment is judged under the ITKF rules. there are muntiple styles under the ITKF, some wado and some goju ppl attended both the tourniments i posted.

and thoes are all the video's of me, if you want more search ITKF or JKA on youtube or something.
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#369710 - 11/14/07 06:32 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
medulanet Offline
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Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

what guard position's are you refering to in the kata? i likely have bunkai aplications for them, as i assume kata has no guard positions, since it is a record of technique. flowing, agressive technique.

your posted video is a prety sweet example of itkf style goal for kumite. the opponent was cought, and flatened. do you believe the presence of a guard wold have done much to prevent the foot sweep? i don't know if a guard would have done much protecting when your on your way down. your hands are going out to brace your fall. head open regardless. the guard would have done little there, foot work would have been a better option.




A guard, tai sabaki, and grappling skill would have prevented that guy from getting bumrushed. Footwork is good to adjust to your opponent's distancing and to close the distance yourself. However, if his distancing is better than yours, then a decent guard to protect the head is necessary. I call it the "stick'em up posture." It is the classic way to show that you are submitting to an attack. This is the first level of misdirection. Allow your opponent to believe you are defensive and attack from their. It is used in kata, self defense, yakusoku kumite, and kumite (not point but all in full contact fighting). By getting your hands on the attack you can control it and your opponent. That is a basic level of grappling, control. If you are grabbing your opponent you are grappling. Used with tai sabaki you get the angle either before you grapple or after to create good position and attack angles. The guy was caught because he appears to not know how to fight well. A decent guard would have helped him there. The thing is that bunkai, kumite, self defense, slapboxing, whatever begins with sound fighting principles. It is said that the hands down posture is the most dangerous position (not hands at your waist, but hands down dangling at your sides or in front) because your opponent does not know what you will do. This is true, as is the hands up posture due to its deceptive nature. Both should be trained extensively because you will probably be in one or the other in a self defense situation. However, hands up is better because it gives you more options. Offensively and defensively. Defense not being to defend, but finding ways to use your opponent's attack to your advantage.
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#369711 - 11/14/07 06:34 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
shoshinkan Offline
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whilst I agree 'kamae' can be interpreted as application I do think they are present in classical kata to show defensive postures first,

usually placed to lure an untrained attacker to attack the gap, of course its quick stuff and only a moment in time.

proving it is another thing and is a specific study that is on my list, but in terms of self defence it makes alot of sense.

At the basic level I use 2 kamae, hands high and hands low but both positions have the hands forward to intercept or attack fast.
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#369712 - 11/14/07 06:40 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
shoshinkan Offline
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Student,

some very nice karate you have, well done for posting it up for all to see.

im not a points sparring fan, but your bunkai was interesting for sure and your kata sharp.
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#369713 - 11/14/07 06:52 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: shoshinkan]
student_of_life Offline
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thanks buddy. i'm glad some of it made sense.
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#369714 - 11/14/07 06:56 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
shoshinkan Offline
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now I didn't say that did I
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#369715 - 11/14/07 06:58 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: medulanet]
student_of_life Offline
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that makes perfect sense yeah. what did in the guy in the vid was the punches that landed after he was swept though, do you think he could have maintained any kind of guard while falling? or while prone?

i apreciate as well, how he could have been saved by a number of reasons, most of which you have mentioned.

if i could ask some spefic movements or postures you use as guard positions from kata?
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#369716 - 11/14/07 06:59 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
Shonuff Offline
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Quote:



"Rokah's kata looks like he is trying to hold very mechanical lines due to some sci-fi ideas about body dynamics and power generation. Most of the talk MAists do about body mechanics and power generation is utter crap in my opinion. Any supposed gains are usually unprovable and likely minute."

the power is not cinsidered to be greater then any other way of power generation. the kind's of power generation strived for by traditional karate-ka's involves less gross motor movement, and more of a sharp body action against the floor, and directed at the opponent. the video's i posted were not for power demonstration.

he moves they way he does (again, just as mch as i know), based on an observation of other punching methods. it's teaching a way of moving the entre body mass toward the target, and to leave minimal room for "give" in any body part, to allow maximum force transfer to the target. the idea is that, when you pnch with say a hay maker, a polular habbit to have some eccess movement in the shoulder, or elbow, or wrist for example, it could occur anywhere on the body where the muslces are not acting in line with the bone structure to best transfer and disperse force. its one way of throwing solid, straight pnches that are being supported with alot of proper muscular contraction. hence the saying, don't hit hard, hit well.




That right there is the kind of Sci-fi BS I was talking about, but at least your not elitist with it . Natural comfortable movement is all anyone needs. The dude in the pub who swings a haymaker at you will still knock you out with it despite all that wasted movement. Enough practice and your body will find its own optimum mechanical efficiency point.

This isn't meant as a criticism of you or your style, I just have no truck with the minute details that are touted as vital to correct technique and key to the art etc etc, mainly because the guy down the road who's doing it completely wrong can still kick ass just fine.

Quote:


"1) All the folks in those vids had their gaurds in front of their bellies. Anyone who can take a punch and keep going or parry while moving forward will make a man suffer for doing that."

traditional karate stylists don't usually bring up the arms to cover the head, this is done in almost every other combat sport for obvious reasons. an added layer of protection arond not only a sensative area, but it covers up an area used to score points on in combat sports. i've been told not to cover my head in karate sparing and pratice because: while we spar, we do not want to get good at sparing esentially. what we want is to be better able to avoid danger (self defence) the karate idea of avoiding danger is not sparing with your target, and im not impying that any one else does. the karate idea (our idea) is to apply the techniqe which will get rid of the opponents offensive abilities as soon as posible. it is prefered to go from not even being a target, to in control as quckly as you can, there is not always a need to cover your head, you can simply strike, or move off line and do what ever. while there is nothing wrong with having an extra layer of protection that is the arms up defence, it is not always needed, unless it gets trned into a slug fest.




I'm a Shotokan stylist, I often fight with a mid gaurd, but a decent mid gaurd should cover the solar plexus, a perfect example is shuto uke position commonly seen in back stance, it gaurds while giving your hands a good offensive/defensive platform. Hands lower than that and you're just asking to be chined.

I understand the fighting style you are describing, but holding your gaurd too low is still bad practice, even if you don't intend to block anything. Also for the style you describe footwork is vital and if moving from a neutral stance is a recent addition to your styles practice then Nishiyama sensei has been remiss in his teaching. Also this goes back to the notion that shotokan needs lots of space. Close quarter work is as much a part of shotokan and especially of self defence as one never knows how much room they will have. Now that is not to say, as some people think, that you will never have room to move in an SD scenario, but it should never be relied upon for the whole system. As all we have is your vids I won't make the assumption that whats shown is the only way you guys practice, but I have seen Shotokan schools for whom the front stance and Jiyu dachi is the be all and end all.

Quote:


"3) Why the hell did they all pause after each hit. So the judge can see the point??? You loose any level of fluidity between techniques, leave yourself wide open after each attack and loose any attacking momentum. Boxers and kungfu fighters the world over hear the name Shotokan and think "punch bag" because of this very habit.
Leaving the fist extended is fine if you intend to make use of bridging techniques, but I saw none of that in the vids and it is the vids we are discussing."

this habbit is simply when training at slower speeds to allow the body more time to "remember" the position of a solid strike. of coarse real time, there are no stops.





I would suggest removing the habit altogether because for some it will stick when they need it not to. The vids worst offenders were Sensei Rokah and the guy doing pad work. Especially on the pads from what you yourself say there should be no stopping. If he does it there he will do it when he needs to not do it.

Quote:


"5) All the tehniques shown were against people who moved in the same ISKF Shotokan way. The idea that Karate is only good for defending against karate comes to mind. I can't see anyone in those vids having an easy time adapting to non ISKF tournament fights."

regretably, this often is the case in week to week dojo training. however, i attend 3 seminars annually with high ranking ITKF sensei and in every one so far we have spent time working against HAOV. karate bunkai is desinged for these natral attakcks, i think. the largest benifet that sparing or competetion fighting has in the ITKF world in my mind is not realism, far from it! but it places the student under a certin ammount of stress, and gets them working timing, distance, and technique. technique's are not ment to be "pulled", in karate, they should be fired fully every time, and the distance controled so that contact is not made. not ment for self defence training in the respect of the kinds of attacks, more for timing, distance, and technique.





I understand what you are saying, but the training to bridge between style attacks and real ones should be part of your dojo sessions, not just seminars. The habits we train are what is important not the details we remember.
In my old school 1-step kumite ceased to be performed in from traditional Shotokan stances at yellow belt and new HAOV were added at each belt. By 3rd kyu we were all confident and capable of handling ourselves in real life conflicts. The traditional skills and movements were still the other 2/3 of our training and were incorporated into the ippon kumite drills along with jujutsu giving us a good grounding in natural realistic usage of our art as a complete self defence method.

I understand where you are coming from SOL, and I know there is alot of great combat ability among the practitioners of the kind of Shotokan you do; as Neko said, Shotokan does hold a pretty decent rep for the solidity of its blows, but re the vids, I stand by my original comment.
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#369717 - 11/14/07 07:02 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
shoshinkan Offline
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start a thread in kata and im sure several people would be interested in discussing that, kamae in kata.
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#369718 - 11/14/07 07:05 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

its with the ITKF, .......thought you would have pieced that one together.

its a national competetion....thats what i ment by this is the nationals

any one can enter, however the tourniment is judged under the ITKF rules. there are muntiple styles under the ITKF, some wado and some goju ppl attended both the tourniments i posted.

and thoes are all the video's of me, if you want more search ITKF or JKA on youtube or something.





Nice

Food for thought.

Good videos. Yours that is.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (11/14/07 07:17 PM)

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#369719 - 11/14/07 07:26 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
Shonuff Offline
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#369720 - 11/14/07 10:06 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
medulanet Offline
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Could he have maintained the guard while falling or while on the ground, no. There are different methods for that. Most of the SD oriented ones involve scrambling back to your feet, or forcing a scramble if the guy tries to hold you down.

As far as kamae from kata I use the hands down posture from pinan kata and gojushiho. I also use the hands up posture from Rohai, Passai, and Kusanku.
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#369721 - 11/15/07 11:44 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Shonuff]
student_of_life Offline
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"That right there is the kind of Sci-fi BS I was talking about, but at least your not elitist with it . Natural comfortable movement is all anyone needs. The dude in the pub who swings a haymaker at you will still knock you out with it despite all that wasted movement. Enough practice and your body will find its own optimum mechanical efficiency point. "

its just a difference in preference of power generation.

if i film any more of what goes on in my dojo i might post it, im not ashamed of the way we train, haha. you said you feel confidant in your ability to defend yourself, me too. so the training worked for the both of us.
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#369722 - 11/17/07 02:07 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
Wado-AJ Offline
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#369723 - 11/17/07 02:20 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Wado-AJ]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

Karate trainingmethods

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA-O2YLoSDk




Interesting. What fighting skill are these training methods designed to develop?
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#369724 - 11/17/07 03:57 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: hedkikr]
Unyu Offline
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Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
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Quote:

In KATA (not in sparring or fighting) the rear leg must remain strait. This is not a matter of 1 style's opinion vs. another. It's the way Nishiyama taught.

Maybe I'll have to ask Frank Smith. ("Who" you ask? ...He's only the best fighter out of Nishiyama's camp in the '60's & '70's before tournament competition became a game of padded tag).

Back leg strait for zenkutsu-dachi...anyone else out there disagree? Look it up.




I did not read beyond the second page. I didn't see the vids. I have a problem with many of you guys claiming that the rear leg in zenkutsu dachi should never be bent while doing kata. Sorry to tell you fellas this, but I agree with the Shotokan cat on this one. The schoolboy way is to keep the leg straight and to use exaggerated length and width. You do not change stances from kata to kumite. Why would you? To ingrain bad habits or to confuse the issue? You should train like you will fight. Period.

The crazy thing about this is that Raul agrees with the gendai assessment whereas the gendai guy has the old school Shuri-te view. I guess Nishiyama kept some aspects of real karate intact in his Shotokan.

BTW who's claiming superiority now? Everyone but crazy arsed Unyu. Ironic and eye-opening.

Sigh...

Now I have to duck and cover before the shite is slung. Responses like these still make me wonder what people are learning out there. I'll tell you it's not original intent and it sounds like fighting and karate based on faulty,unscientific principles.

The panty bunching begins...
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#369725 - 11/17/07 05:04 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:

Karate trainingmethods

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA-O2YLoSDk




Interesting. What fighting skill are these training methods designed to develop?




I think they might be posted to sell a product. I doubt if the guy will answer. Could be wrong though?

Quote:

Could he have maintained the guard while falling or while on the ground, no. There are different methods for that. Most of the SD oriented ones involve scrambling back to your feet, or forcing a scramble if the guy tries to hold you down.

As far as kamae from kata I use the hands down posture from pinan kata and gojushiho. I also use the hands up posture from Rohai, Passai, and Kusanku.




If I am not mistaken werent different kamae in kata used for different reasons? Such as pretending to be passive /submissive etc in order to give the opponnent the wrong idea?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (11/17/07 05:12 PM)

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#369726 - 11/17/07 05:14 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Unyu]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


I guess Nishiyama kept some aspects of real karate intact in his Shotokan.

BTW who's claiming superiority now? Everyone but crazy arsed Unyu. Ironic and eye-opening.

Sigh...

Now I have to duck and cover before the shite is slung. Responses like these still make me wonder what people are learning out there. I'll tell you it's not original intent and it sounds like fighting and karate based on faulty,unscientific principles.

The panty bunching begins...




Hi Bryan Hows things?

Jude

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#369727 - 11/17/07 06:39 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
Victor Smith Offline
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#369728 - 11/17/07 06:52 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
superb kata IMO,

a little different from how I work (ie I don't stress so much 'form' and am certainly not this refined) but extremly good karate should be praised.
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#369729 - 11/17/07 10:58 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Unyu]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Interesting threads and post. I am basically here trying to get a flavor for what you traditionalists do and argue about. It is interesting and thanks.

Per the katas, I don't have the eyes or experience to see what you folks are looking at. I can, however, generally tell when someone is technically proficient by watching them.

Per the zenkutsu-dachi, I think it would have to be trained both ways. A fighting stance is not a front stance necessarily. I personally would gravitate to a more boxing like stance. But there are uses to a straight rear leg zenkutsu-dachi with similar downward movement behind it that you would see in performing a kiba-dachi. One use can be construed as similar to a modified o-soto-gari in Judo for unbalancing using that straightened rear leg.

Thanks guys!

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#369730 - 11/19/07 12:34 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
kakushiite Offline
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Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 266
Loc: Ithaca, NY, USA
Great thread. I'm late to the discussion, but I will put my two cents in.

First, the Rokah kata initially discussed appears to me to be very representative of a whole lot of Shotokan. Comparing this kata to Kanazawa's kata and saying it doesn't measure up doesn't really tell us much. Few Shotokan students will ever have kata that looks like Kanazawa's. The beauty and strength of his kata comes from his 50 years of dedication to his art. Comparing a mid-level teacher to one of the great masters just isn't fair in my book.

I do find Sensei Rokah's kata a little on the mechanical side. Is a lot of Shotokan mechanical. Yes. Are the kata of a whole lot of Okinawan systems often mechanical. Again, yes. A post on FA (bunkai methods) just a short while ago shows Kise performing Seisan, and the general comments were not so hot.

Here's Victor view: "I think its safe to say that Kise Sensei's performance is perhaps the standard for most Okinawan seniors, more a walk through than a high level performance."

I have studied in the Chibana lineage on and off for a few years, and one thing I find frustrating about the way they typically practice kata is that there is a pause after almost every movement. This constant stopping turns kata into much more mechanical set of movements.

There was some discussion of the prevalence of a straight back leg in Shotokan.

ďIn KATA (not in sparring or fighting) the rear leg must remain strait. This is not a matter of 1 style's opinion vs. another. It's the way Nishiyama taught.Ē

First, if Rokah did not have a straight leg all the time, this is only a small imperfection. There is so much going on in kata, and this is just a nit. I found the discussion that related kata to fighting useful. Itís important for karateka to realize that there are a whole range of concepts in karate (as it is done today) that don't map well to fighting, and the locked back leg is one of them. I understand the concepts behind power generation on a strike, but there are plenty of movements in kata where there is a block done in the forward stance, and these techniques don't benefit at all from a rigid back leg.

But I'm not sure that Shotokan has always had some overwhelming emphasis on a straight back leg. If so, we would find it universally in the videos of top Shotokan students.

If you look carefully at Kanazawa's kata, you will find his back leg is not always locked. And that is true also of the kata from the old JKA black and white videos.

Itís easiest to see in the standard JKA kata from the 1970s. Here are a few examples, with the numbers showing the seconds into the video.

Jion- :17, :23, :36, :52
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMaIzwWDYAk&feature=related

Empi - :18,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJfPeKAcDjo&feature=related

Wankan - :35, :46
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iL9T7FOFeQY&feature=related

Kanku dai elbows (following side kicks) - :44
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz16G9-PERM

Heian Shodan (assorted) :18, :22, :29, :32,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtYmA-AXMVo

Heian Sandan :44
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi4wV-FKoA0

Heian Godan :18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g-KOvfpXHA

These are just the more obvious ones to me. Some will see some of these as having a straight leg, but certainly not all of them.

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#369731 - 11/19/07 12:56 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: kakushiite]
kakushiite Offline
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Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 266
Loc: Ithaca, NY, USA
In this thread, there was some discussion of that age old topic, the mapping of kata movements to fighting. Fighting means many things, but one standard we can, at least momentarily agree on, is that we should expect attacks, to some extent, the way an MMA student learns to attack. Some kicks, yes, but combinations of strikes, generally to the head are very common. So we need combinations to deal with these.

I believe to have really effective fighting, we have to be creative and interpretive and shouldn't expect to find all the best combinations directly from a perfect mapping to the kata movements as they are done today.

However, if we twist and tweak the kata, we can build great fighting combinations on top of the body movements and mechanics found in the kata.

Some applications, in my book, just donít measure up. In this thread one was discussed. There was some criticism of Rokahís execution of his opening of Heian Nidan (Pinan Shodan). GriffyGriff mentioned a particular application: ď1st 3 moves comprise of a block, and arm-break and a further strike. These seem to be performed too mechanically.Ē

Here is a link to a Shotokan version of this ďarm-break.Ē
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFE_KuUo9ko&feature=related

And here is a link to a Shito Ryu version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWbGlbsE4ek

I would argue that any trained MMA person would likely say that this is an unrealistic application. Most obviously, most fighters don't leave their arms out long enough for you to meaningfully attack both sides of them at the same time.

But even if an attacker left his arm extended for this, does this concept really make any sense at all? I think it foolish to assume the attacker canít reach your head with his strike, and we should assume, he is hitting you hard in the face. But watch the video. This block does not redirect the strike. Since you are hitting it on both sides of the arm at the same time, each side cancels out the other, and you still wind up getting hit in the face. Why would anyone want to do a technique like this.

But this technique is a bad one for another key reason. Look at the video again. The attacker closes from the defenders left side. and the Shotokan defender launches his body weight, and head, directly towards the attackers strike. (Of course it is karate, so the strikes donít go to the head, but see my assumption, above, the fighter is hitting you in the head.)

Now, Iím not saying that the trap of the arm is unrealistic in all cases. If you withdraw from the attack, as it is done in the Shito Ryu video, that wouldnít be really bad fighting. At least you wouldnít be throwing your facing into his fist.

But this whole application completely misses the fundamental aspects of the Pinan (Heian) openings. We have Mabuni to thank for his insight into the Pinan openings, and Joe Swift to thank for his translation of Mabuniís text right here on Fighting Arts:
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=221615&an=0&page=9

In a nutshell, Mabuni tells us that the first movement of the Pinans are responses to attacker coming from straight ahead. This should not really be a surprise. Bassai Dai, Bassai Sho, Empi, Gunkaku, Jitte, Jiin, Jion, Kanku Dai, all start out going straight ahead, so there should be plenty of applications for attacks from straight ahead. Why should we expect the Pinans to be any different? (And for you Goju students, outside of Kururupha, which opens like the Pinans, all the Higaonna kata are for attacks obviously coming from straight ahead.)

With Mabuniís insight, we can now apply this movement in a more meaningful way to a more common attack. With an attacker coming from straight ahead, we can use the first two arm movements in Pinan Shodan (Heian Nidan) to block two strikes coming from straight ahead, importantly the very common left-right combination, with both going straight for the head.

But there's a catch. In the Shotokan kata, the left foot moves and the body weight either remains in place, or shifts to the left, depending on the length of the back stance. But for effective tai sabaki, what you really need is for the body weight to shift slightly to the right, or slightly forward, or both. No one system has the Pinans open with a shift forward and to the right, but other systems, including Shotokan have portions of it.

For Shotokan, to see how the body weight can shift to the right, we need look no further than the opening of Kanku Sho. The old JKA films show pretty good lateral tai sabaki, utilizing a minimal off the line movement, allowing for contact with the attacker to enable counterstrikes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDsWe3EWJqU

But we can see how this evolved in Kanazawa's kata where in Kanku Sho, he has a big move off the line which essential pulls himself completely away from the attacker.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMdGiRYHBPk

In the Shito Ryu Pinan Shodan application, above, we saw a similar movement to the old version of Kanku Sho, where the body weight shifts to the right directly over the right foot. That is the way all Shito Ryu Pinan open. (Pinan Shodan and Yondan links, below).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnQ7uc_H7tc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmLQq_q_YMg

And here you can see Sensei Hobbs's Dentokan version, which pulls back even further off the line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWX6T0Ip3NU

As I mentioned above, good tai sabaki can also utilize forward as well as side to side movements. We can look to other systems for this as well. In Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu, the right foot moves forward before the turn to the left. (See the following at 1:58)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3doBN7ad8U

My belief is that good tai sabaki is a combination of the Matsubayashi (forward) and the Shotokan Kanku Sho, (sitting back on the right foot). And this is easy to do. Just lift the right foot up slight and turn the hips hard, and your foot naturally travels forward and to the right.

We do know that Funakoshi had some measure of tai sabaki in his teaching. In the old Nishiyama video, you can see how much tai sabaki was used by the first two fighters on the video., as well as the knife defense. It was used in most of the applications.

Funakoshiís top student was Sensei Egami, and there is a video of a school of his. Though we can never know how much of this comes from Funakoshi, there is clearly an emphasis on tai sabaki in this school. (Starting at 1:35 into the video.).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ-yaEPZuXI&feature=related

The whole point of this post is that I think Rokak's Heian Nidan opening had all the right body mechanics for either a block, or a counterstrike to an opponent attacking from straight ahead. If it wasn't strong enough to break an elbow, he probably wouldn't want to use this application anyway.

-Kakushite

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#369732 - 11/19/07 09:18 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Unyu]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

BTW who's claiming superiority now? Everyone but crazy arsed Unyu. Ironic and eye-opening.





There's quite a big difference between commenting on the percieved flaws in the training or performance of an individual in a video and claiming superiority over everyone who is not you, your brother or Ron Lindsey.

Perhaps you should read the rest of the thread.
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#369733 - 11/19/07 02:01 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: kakushiite]
student_of_life Offline
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Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
im going home for the weekend for a karate seminar. i should have access to a camera then, so if you like i can post an alternate application for the opening movements to heian nidan?
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#369734 - 11/19/07 05:03 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: medulanet]
Wado-AJ Offline
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Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 112
Loc: gorinchem, Holland
Quote:

Quote:

Karate trainingmethods

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA-O2YLoSDk




Interesting. What fighting skill are these training methods designed to develop?




Though I find it a very odd question I will try to answer it as good as possible.
the first technique is called sonobazuki. It's a very regular exercise in many styles of karate. Explained the easiest way its just to develope a strong and correct punch. You will need this in a fight...

The second one from the front kamae is a shorter punch, thus it is then better to execute tateken. (for fighting I would relate it to close combat, though I myself stick to the purpose of the method. In combat you will need a correct and good punch.)

In both methods the hip and shoulders are kept as still possible. This ensures you to better focus your energy. Using hip and shoulder twisting or rotation will make you loose your energy the wrong way. First feel it through this practise, then it will be easier to harmonize with the use of hiptwisting.

the 3rd exercise shown is from hanmi gamae this is gyakuzuki.. this time the focus is on the hiptwist.

a 4th witch is not on the video would be from kokutsu dachi to zenkutsudachi, still the same as the 3rd exercise. It would focus more on shifting and possible forward movement, that is better for kumite.

for actual fighting methods I would do more with distance and timing, but this is just for basics.
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#369735 - 11/19/07 05:36 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
kakushiite Offline
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Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 266
Loc: Ithaca, NY, USA
Student_of_life,

I have a simple philosophy. The more bunkai the better. If I see ten techniques for a particular kata sequence, there is probably at least one that would be worth incorporating into my training. So the more we share, the more value we all will see within our art.

Youtube is an outstanding medium for this if you would like to post it there.

When I first started training in the 70s, you can't imagine how much secrecy that existing regarding upper level kata. Now a great deal of the kata is available to everyone on Youtube. I trained with Hayashi-sensei in 1978, and he demonstrated his white crane kata. He told one of my seniors that it was one of the first times he even showed this kata to anyone. Now his Hakkaku is on youtube.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkeEB6DOLzs

For our art to thrive, I believe the next step is to get more useful applications out in the open. If we want students to embrace karate as a fighting system, then we have to get the useful applications out there, so we can start retiring some of the tired old b.s. that has helped give karate a bad rap.

I have plans to publish on-line a large inventory of applications that I have developed over the years. But it is a large project and I want to put it all out at once instead of piecemeal, so I have a lot of work to do.

Plus, I have rather a different view of kata than most. My belief is that many Shorin Ryu kata appear to have been initially designed for sword or spear, and may have been modified over the centuries to work for empty hand as well.

It's not a trivial task to thoroughly document these concepts. There are lots of applications for me to improve upon. I have learned from this thread and many others, that when you publish on the web, unless it is just really solid, it is going to be picked apart. Believe me, my sword approach to Okinawan kata will give plenty of material for critics to pick apart. An earlier discussion of this on FA brought out all sorts of opinions on just how wrong this concept is. But the proof, as they say, is in the pudding, so I have my work cut out for me in the kitchen.

I will publish my ideas on-line because I believe they will, in a small way, help the art. I strongly believe that if more people would publish their ideas, collectively we would be able to help rescue "traditional" Okinawan/Japanese karate from dying an untimely death. I've been through 30 years of training, and have visited lots of schools, and I just haven't found much in the way of useful applications. I want future karateka not to be as clueless as I was for most of my training, so I will do my share.

We already have made some progress in this area. Three seasoned Shotokan veteran's have documented their concepts on video. (Vince Morris, Tony Annesi, and Ian Abernathy). And there is a growing body of work from other karate systems. Patrick McCarthy's work is superb. Even Dillman's early work (prior to his OTKO an NTKO stuff) has some merit as well. (I believe he did a real public service in popularizing some of Oyata sensei's pressure point teachings.) And of course Higaonna and Chinen have done much to further our understand of Goju kata.

There are others as well. Here's Kuniba-sensei doing Seipei (www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQk_LtVIEi0&feature=related)

And certainly there are scores of concepts from karate, as well as other arts published on-line, and this is a great gift to us all.

The one lesson I have learned in kata application is that there is no right one way to interpret a kata movement. Some movements lend themselves to lots of different meanings. And the opening of Heian Nidan is a perfect example. There are literally dozens of applications that you can dream up. Heck, I practice Heian Nidan with a sword, so you can imagine that the applications I practice for the opening movement are quite a bit different than typical empty-hand applications.

So if you have some good applications, please share with us. But don't forget. We have a tough crowd here, lots of contributors with lots of experience, in karate, and other more fighting-oriented systems.

With that in mind, I recommend you follow the four steps I do in your approach to kata application.

First, the attack should be realistic. If it is a punch, it should not be someone charging at you in a long front stance and freezing still after a single strike to your solar plexus. If you train in attacks from deep front stances, you should drop that model for publishing on the web. The attacker should be upright, preferably shuffling in with an attack, as you do in kumite, and a single, retracting punch to the head is better than an attack to the abdomen. And if your defense can deal with a left-right combination attack, no one will argue that your application is based an unlikely attack.

Second, a single counterstrike usually doesn't cut it in a real fight. The rule of thumb is, an initially successful strike sets up more strikes, or a finishing strike, or a lock/takedown. The one-strike defense is a major reason why so much of karate (especially Shotokan) looks ineffective to good fighters. There are just too much one-strike defensive applications out there, and these do not model good fighting, end of story.

Third, if you have any locks or throws, you need to train with them against a resisting opponent, because many concepts break down when the attacker resists. If you have a good initial counter strike (or two), you can set up the locks, because for a moment, there may be no significant resistance.

Finally, and in my belief most important, would your application likely be effective against a larger opponent. Time and again, I have seen some big Sensei doing all sorts of stuff against smaller attackers (in deep stances no less), and it leaves me wondering, "yea but how would that work on a bigger guy?" Hey, I can make virtually anything work against someone a lot smaller than me, and one-strike counters work remarkably well if you are twice the size of the person you are hitting. The problem is that, on average, it is bigger people that attack you and bigger people that can hurt you more.

So if your application takes into account these four "fight" criteria, and you can make it work well, then this crowd might not be as tough on you as they have been on others showing kata and bunkai.

-Kakushite

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#369736 - 11/20/07 02:42 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Shonuff]
Anonymous
Unregistered


In the Heian Nidan you posted:

I saw bunkai in which 3 knife hand chest blocks are interpreted as blocking a single opponent who is backing up WHILE throwing 3 consecutive chest punches. All this while 2 other "bad guys" stand by and watch.

What is wrong with this picture?

Does it strike anyone else as a ridiculous scenario for a fight?

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#369737 - 11/20/07 03:13 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

In the Heian Nidan you posted:

I saw bunkai in which 3 knife hand chest blocks are interpreted as blocking a single opponent who is backing up WHILE throwing 3 consecutive chest punches. All this while 2 other "bad guys" stand by and watch.

What is wrong with this picture?

Does it strike anyone else as a ridiculous scenario for a fight?




Hi
I dont think Shonuff posted such a video.
I cant see it.
It would be easier if you posted the link/ quote etc so we all could get to know what you think you might be talking about.

Jude

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#369738 - 11/20/07 10:05 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm talking about this one posted by Kakushiite.

"Here is a link to a Shotokan version of this ďarm-break.Ē
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFE_KuUo9ko&feature=related"

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#369739 - 11/20/07 02:18 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I'm talking about this one posted by Kakushiite.

"Here is a link to a Shotokan version of this ďarm-break.Ē
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFE_KuUo9ko&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFE_KuUo9ko&feature=related"[/url]




Hi

Ok this is what I think coming from a mere student.
I dont agree or disagree with what was shown on the video.
But I now ask myself these questions when I see such things.
What reason was the video made?
If it is practice what are they practicing and why?
What level of student was the video aimed at?
Do people automaticaly assume that is what he would do in a fight?
I doubt if the intention of that video was to show the true application of those techniques in a real fight.
If I am not mistaken( and I can be) there are parrellel lines with that type of training at the moment being done with trad types .

To realise what I am getting at will take some research from anybody who cares to research things.


Jude

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#369740 - 11/20/07 02:36 PM Heian Nidan Bunkai
kakushiite Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 266
Loc: Ithaca, NY, USA
Great point on the traditional Shotokan interpretation of Shutos. The attacker is practically jumping backwards. Hardly a menacing threat.

Though that may seem to take the cake on foolish bunkai in this video, if you look carefully, you can find even worse. On many of the turns, the initial attacking strike has to fall far short of the defender for the block to line up. Wow, that's worrisome. Some guy is going to attack me by striking a foot or more short of my face.

Regarding those Shutos, I have found that sequence to be one of the most challenging sequences to develop bunkai for. First thing is to jettison the back stances. Practically anything you can develop will likely work better with the shorter stances used in Okinawa. (Or found in Funakoshi's book "Karate Jutsu").

http://www.karate.org.yu/articles/gichin_5.htm

But here is another thought. I have asked an Okinawan about this and shuto doesn't translate directly into "knife" (hand), but more into "sharp edge", closer to "blade" (hand).

And as we know, swords have sharp edges or bladed edges. And these shuto movements can be modified slightly for a sword attack (not defense, but offense) charging forward swinging to the left, then the right, then the left, and finished with a thrust (nukite).

You may think that Funakoshi's "blade" hands and body mechanics do not closely match the swinging of the sword. As I described in my earlier post, translations can borrow from multiple systems. Check out Nakazato's Kusanku at :33 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLHZpSVCoGg

You can see this in Nagamine's system as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNzcUfnGJyI

Now all sorts of folks will think, or say "the kata was never meant for a sword". I argue in response, "then come up with something meaningful for the three forward shuto movements, followed by nukite or "spear" hand." Come up with something at least somewhat more meaningful than the foolishness in this video.

And of course I have my confidence that three, fast side to side swings of the sword, while charging forward, is about as effective as anything else on the battlefield.

-Kakushite

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#369741 - 11/20/07 02:40 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
kakushiite Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 266
Loc: Ithaca, NY, USA
Jude33 said:

"Ok this is what I think coming from a mere student.
I dont agree or disagree with what was shown on the video.
But I now ask myself these questions when I see such things.
What reason was the video made?
If it is practice what are they practicing and why?
What level of student was the video aimed at?
Do people automaticaly assume that is what he would do in a fight?
I doubt if the intention of that video was to show the true application of those techniques in a real fight.
If I am not mistaken( and I can be) there are parrellel lines with that type of training at the moment being done with trad types."

I disagree entirely with the notion that Shotokan beginners practice junk like this and advanced students get the good stuff.

I have had lots of experience with many Shotokan schools, and this is about the level of bunkai practiced.

Here's a question. Why would anyone want students to waste time practicing this junk if there were other, realistic applications that they could train in that would give them better fighting skills.

-Kakushite

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#369742 - 11/20/07 04:19 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: kakushiite]
Anonymous
Unregistered


My school's answer and the best one I think to the 3 consecutive shuto is to consider them to be actually a wrist manipulation. After the initial shuto which is an outside block, imagine yourself grabbing the puncher's right hand with your right and then while retaining hold, and making that circular reversal your hand position with the next shuto. This will force the ouncher's hand behind their back and the 3rd shuto will [censored] kill them.

Sorry for the poor description. I am rushing.

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#369743 - 11/20/07 04:44 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure
shoshinkan Offline
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or maybee an interpretation could be that they are not in fact 3 shutos on the same person, but perhaps 2 varients on a similair theme?

ie shuto, step forward shuto

and shuto step forward nukite

different days and everything!

perhaps it is just a single movement emphasised in the kata by repeating, often seen with 'core' movements, and indeed combinations.

or it may be simply to practise both sides and return to the first position?

I have recieved very different explanations from some very good teachers,

personally my opinion is to try and link three of the same movements into a realistic application proberly shows a real lack of fighting experience,

but then again I do try to make application work against common methods of assaults my priority so im fairly limited here with what actually will work under some pressure.
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#369744 - 11/20/07 06:53 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: shoshinkan]
kakushiite Offline
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Shoshinkan said:

"or maybe an interpretation could be that they are not in fact 3 shutos on the same person, but perhaps 2 varients on a similair theme?"

I learned long ago that there are no absolutes in interpreting kata. There are lots of great ideas out there. I said earlier how difficult it is to try to come up with a good application using the whole Heian Nidan sequence of empty hand shutos as a single combination. One alternative is obviously to break it apart.

Another alternative is to go offensive with a weapon. I mentioned the sword before, and it maps quite well to these shuto movements in Heian Nidan, but other weapons also map. Kama and sai work especially well for these shuto, and even tonfa and nunchaku can make sense in these repetitive forward sequences.

This issue of how to approach the long repetitive linear sequences so common to Okinawan kata is very interesting. I will start a new thread on this in the kata section.

-Kakushite

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#369745 - 11/20/07 07:29 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure
kakushiite Offline
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"My school's answer and the best one I think to the 3 consecutive shuto is to consider them to be actually a wrist manipulation. After the initial shuto which is an outside block, imagine yourself grabbing the puncher's right hand with your right and then while retaining hold, and making that circular reversal your hand position with the next shuto. This will force the ouncher's hand behind their back and the 3rd shuto will [censored] kill them."

I am curious how well your application maps to the movements in the kata. After the initial block, are there two forward steps in stances as long as those found in Shotokan? I don't see how one can use these long stances (2 or 3 steps forward) against a relatively stationary opponent.

But as I said before, lots of times you have to modify things. And you may be only using one or two steps forward (verses the three in the kata.)

Can you provide a clarification? Are you using the initial left block (as is done in the kata) against the right strike, since that is how the sequence begins. (Although Shoshinkan correctly notes, you can begin in the middle.)

Also, if you are blocking with the left are you then grabbing with the right? That may be hard to do with an opponent that doesn't leave his hand extended.

I think you have described a right block of a right hand, followed by a grab of it (which can very extremely difficult), then there is one forward step for the trap, snaking the left hand over and around his right arm, and finally a shuto to the neck in which there may not be any forward movement?

Is that a close description?

-Kakushite

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#369746 - 11/21/07 09:50 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: kakushiite]
shoshinkan Offline
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Quote:

Shoshinkan said:

"or maybe an interpretation could be that they are not in fact 3 shutos on the same person, but perhaps 2 varients on a similair theme?"

I learned long ago that there are no absolutes in interpreting kata. There are lots of great ideas out there. I said earlier how difficult it is to try to come up with a good application using the whole Heian Nidan sequence of empty hand shutos as a single combination. One alternative is obviously to break it apart.

Another alternative is to go offensive with a weapon. I mentioned the sword before, and it maps quite well to these shuto movements in Heian Nidan, but other weapons also map. Kama and sai work especially well for these shuto, and even tonfa and nunchaku can make sense in these repetitive forward sequences.

This issue of how to approach the long repetitive linear sequences so common to Okinawan kata is very interesting. I will start a new thread on this in the kata section.

-Kakushite




we all come at it from different angles, that is a given.

my personal stance is that weapons can be employed in empty hand kata, body shape and application does allow many uses for the movements, if thats your thing.

However there is plenty of specific weapon kata and methods that I feel are more appropiate for weapons training, and specific to the weapon.

However personal choice comes into this, so no real rights or wrongs.

Look forward to the new thread.
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#369747 - 11/21/07 01:02 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: shoshinkan]
Anonymous
Unregistered


So hard for me to visualize these things from a description, but yes, that sounds right. As for the step, in Shorin, we do one step if I understand you correctly.

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#369748 - 11/22/07 10:49 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: kakushiite]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:


I disagree entirely with the notion that Shotokan beginners practice junk like this and advanced students get the good stuff.

I have had lots of experience with many Shotokan schools, and this is about the level of bunkai practiced.

Here's a question. Why would anyone want students to waste time practicing this junk if there were other, realistic applications that they could train in that would give them better fighting skills.

-Kakushite




Judes students thoughts.

Because maybe the people it was aimed at havent got/didint have the body conditioning/ skills to practice anything more advanced. Yet

A suggestion.
Find an average shodan shotokan black belt.
Ask him first then if he agrees wack him on the forearm with shuto.
See if he jumps about.
If he does the bunkia on the video shown is his limit.


Be honest does the average shotokan practioner do any form of body conditioning? I know of some KUGB practioners who do/did.( I didnt mean you guys! Honest!!)

I agree that shotokan doesnt seem to show advanced stuff.
Although I best be carefull there are some tasy KUGB practioners out there who more than likely do.

Plus these katas came from other katas that more than likely had the correct applications.

Techniques in kata were said to be hidden not completly changed beyond recognition.

If there is a wrist grab it should be shown somewhere in the kata. Maybe in the original kata?

There is said to be a windpipe grab, finger break in Jion. They look like they could be just that.

Weopons in kata? Could be. Swords?

Who knows.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (11/22/07 10:56 AM)

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#369749 - 11/23/07 08:45 AM Re: Heian Nidan Bunkai [Re: kakushiite]
Barad Offline
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Kakushiite,

I agree the trad Shotokan knifehand bunkai are often silly, blocking a strike that wwould not otherwise hit etc or blocking but no follow up. Try this interpretation for knifehand instead:

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/BasicBunkaiPart2.asp

In Heian Nidan, you might also see the first knife hand as a turn and throw by the opponent's head after hitting him with the kick & backfist/grab with the second as a following strike if the throw fails.

variously the knifehand could also be:

-mawashi uke entering (as the hands cross) against a straight punch attack followed by open handed strike to the neck grabbing the attacking arm.

-against a grab to one arm same side, distract/strike with the other arm that sweeps back across your face followed by the same strike to neck as the grabbed arm reverses the grab against the attacker's wrist, locked against the chest.

-Cross arm grab reversed and raised, followed by open handed strike to back of attacker's tricep on his grabbing hand, his same arm locked to your chest.

-close up round elbow (when the hand passes the face in "preparation")followed by gouging elbow same arm swinging the other way (what would be strike to the neck at longer range).

-Pressing strike to a grabbing arm followed by nukite to throat (now at middle level due to the arm strike)followed by grabbing the opponent (as arms "wrap up" to prepare shuto) and turn 270 degrees to throw. If the throw fails, the kata shows another shuto uchi strike as follow up.

No doubt many of these interpretations are familiar to you and needless to say all done in a high, upright backstance or cat stance. No doubt many more but do they need to follow the kata sequence? Not IMO as the kata are just a memory aid. Why three? perhaps because they are different options depending what precedes or follows them.

B.

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#369750 - 11/23/07 09:30 AM Re: Heian Nidan Bunkai [Re: Barad]
Barad Offline
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And then I see you (Kakushiite) have already mentioned Ian Abernethy and Vince Morris (head of my organisation) so I was repeating what you already know. Oh well...

B.


Edited by Barad (11/23/07 09:31 AM)

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#369751 - 11/23/07 09:57 AM Re: Heian Nidan Bunkai [Re: Barad]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Kakushiite,

I agree the trad Shotokan knifehand bunkai are often silly, blocking a strike that would not otherwise hit etc or blocking but no follow up. Try this interpretation for knifehand instead:

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/BasicBunkaiPart2.asp





Hi

Judes thoughts
I dont think all can be said to be silly. As I said I think some might be viewed as a stepping stone wrongly intepretated as fighting techniques. If we took the original videos method with three knife hands. What are they doing? Blocking a punch. Total
rubbish in a fight? agreed. I dont think they were meant to be used in a fight. Conditioning? While going through the kata seqeunce?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (11/23/07 10:11 AM)

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#369752 - 11/23/07 01:14 PM Re: Heian Nidan Bunkai [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
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I think I should re-phase that.
It might not be used in that manner in a fight.
I cant seem to get my head around that 3 knife hands using the given stance in succession is seen as to represent a few techniques?

How about it was meant for two begginers to stand in a natural stance then work at that sequence as a two man drill.

Later the drill incorperates other techniques.

Jude

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#369753 - 11/23/07 02:25 PM Re: Heian Nidan Bunkai [Re: Barad]
Victor Smith Offline
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Barad,

There is no clear reason why so many kata utilize the rule of 3, or 3 series of techniques. Of course it depends on how you define a technique.

As there are no original applications that any of us could point to as the original standard, and there are no limitations on what a technique can be defined as (one knife hand step and strike might be 1 technique or it could be viewed as it's fractals and be many techniques) trying to suggest how you would attack-use 3 of them in sequence can be problematical.

But there are no rules saying you really have to look at it that way.

From my point of view the simplest answer I see is entry into an attack from the exterior line of defense and then completion with an armbar sticking their face into the ground, and using two knife hands to accomplish this.
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#369754 - 11/25/07 05:58 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: kakushiite]
student_of_life Offline
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the weekend is over in a flash as usual, and im sorry to report that i never had time to record the application i said i would. so i will try and describe it as best as i can.

first, the kata i pratice is the JKA heian nidan. so, the movements are preformed from a back stance.

here's a reference vid of the steps of the kata im refering too. not exactly how i would do it, but close enough.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=36pI7IRLqFs

one purpose of back stance that we train is that it is a position in which one leg supports most of your own weight, while the other is "reaching" out into your opponents space to allow you to conrtol him a little more from a clinching position. in other words, try a tug of war contest in back stance, it allows you to pull stongly. simply one purpose. the attack to be defended is against a right handed haymaker directed at your head. the left arm rises to a high blocking position and the right arm rises above the head in a kind of age uke motion. the left arm is intended to intercept the haymaker, using the bone of your wrist to attack the forearm of your attcker. there's a pp there, not sure of the name (large intestine 15?) either way, it stops the punch. simultaniously the right arm is used to punch the attacker in the jaw. in the kata your hand ends upside down, in application, its a kind of overhanded shot to the jaw, or a close hook. this covers the opening movement.

the next movement corsses the arms infront of the chest. the right arm, which has just pnched the jaw, is whiped down, and attacks the opponents floating ribs with a hammer fist. at the same time, the left hand, which has just blocked the imcoming haymaker, is snaped by the attackers jaw, and strikes the right side of the opponents jaw with a hammer fist, or grabs the opponent by the shirt and pulls him into the floating rib hammer fist that your hitting him with with the other hand. this is the second move.

lastly, the "downward block" is used to attack either the same floating ribs struck by your previous hammer fist, or attacks low to the grion, or using the hikite is used to pull on your opponents left arm while you bar it with the downward movement of your arm, or if you pull him hard enough to get him leaning, you can reach his kidney's or liver with a hammer fist. or you could use it to strike the side of the neck with the fore arm. this could complete the sequence.

the sequence is then repeated on the other side follow'd by a side snap kick (in my style) and back fist. one application i've been playing with, but have yet to really test is the use of this kicking action as a hip toss. i think it would look similar to the uchi mata throw tough in judo. this is just an idea though, like i said, i have not had the mat space to test it out yet.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=46ct5xZFiP4

that is a vid of the throw im talking about in action in a judo comp. while there are blinding differences in the to vids, i base my idea of the throw on my short expirence in judo, and my knowledge of the pendulum action of the hips opening into the kick, and how it relates (in my head at least)

again, sorry for not getting the vid up. its gonna be another 2 weeks till im home again and i'll try again if you would like some clarfication on any of the points. i hope that helps.

mark
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#369755 - 11/25/07 08:15 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

one purpose of back stance that we train is that it is a position in which one leg supports most of your own weight, while the other is "reaching" out into your opponents space to allow you to conrtol him a little more from a clinching position. in other words, try a tug of war contest in back stance, it allows you to pull stongly. simply one purpose.




Hmm. I think the problem here is a lack of understanding principles of grappling. Leaning back and reaching with your leg when clinched may win a tug of war, but not a grappling battle. It will simply get you taken down and pounded out. This is just not a sound fighting principle when it comes to grappling when used in fighting.
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#369756 - 11/25/07 09:45 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: medulanet]
student_of_life Offline
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there's just no pleaseing some matsubayshi ryu guys......
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#369757 - 11/25/07 11:17 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
medulanet Offline
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Student, its not you, believe me. I believe you are a good guy who has solid karate. Its just if you ever fought in a full contact environment through sparring/two man drills you would understand what techniques work in what environment. I personally teach my students tradition point kumite, bare knuckle full contact kumite, and a variation of what people would see as MMA fighting. These are all training methods I use to drill specific principles. This is also only a portion of what I use to develop skill in my students. These also provide a competitive outlet for some of my students who need that to help get them out of gangs, etc. What I am getting at is practicing these different methods allows one to understand what fighting principles work where and what ones cross over. For example, the techniques I teach for all three methods of fighting cross over. I don't teach seperate techniques, only the strategy varies. Now, if a guy who does not grapple in full contact fighting tells me about a technique used in fighting in the "clinch" it is not that hard to tell if that is a legit technique/principle used. Please, tell me if I am wrong, but do the people who taught you this technique actually grapple and strike in the clinch, or is this more of a close range combat with no true grappling other than grabbing/immobilization techniques?
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#369758 - 11/26/07 01:46 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: medulanet]
butterfly Offline
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Quote:

Its just if you ever fought in a full contact environment through sparring/two man drills you would understand what techniques work in what environment.




Med hit it on the head in this instance. This goes by many names and many incorrect considerations. But basically, if you haven't applied a specific technique in the tactical application of sparring or fairly resistant drills, the technique is suspect.

I have also had the same concerns when considering other posts that posit techniques out of the context that they are generally practiced in.

For instance, one can say you practice low kicks if you pull them out once in awhile in practice, but you still don't "practice" low kicks unless you actively try to apply them in sparring and partner drills. In the former case, you don't learn what works as defense against them nor the target areas that may actually be available to you. However, in the latter, you get more than a ring side seat to see where functionality meets the asphalt.

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#369759 - 11/26/07 03:08 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: butterfly]
shoshinkan Offline
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yep im with Med and Butterfly on this one,

That 'application' is worked via a progressive set of fixed, then semi fixed (very quickly), then non fixed contact drills and of course wrestling (I call it tegumi),

I call it 'heavy contact' training, which reduces injuries somehow.....

It really changes your view on what is actually applicabile and what isn't.
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#369760 - 11/26/07 10:01 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

there's just no pleaseing some matsubayshi ryu guys......




Well as I see it training should take in to account how people fight. If the people who are in charge of the training dont fight other than in set rules then they wouldnt know either.

I think this stems from the fact that certain lines of karate went off on a different path to pure fighting.

I dont Think this applies to just shotokan by the way.

Jude.

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#369761 - 11/26/07 11:13 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: medulanet]
student_of_life Offline
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fisrt, thanks for the compliment.

and im sorry that i used the wrong terminology. i used the word clinch when i shouldn't have. i ment to apply the technique in a close range, where arms can grab onto shirts, or other limbs, not any spefic clinch range, or style of clinch. my only expirence with clinching, well what would be called proper clinching, was in judo. the technique i outlined was from the prespective of a trad JKA karate man, there is no clinch work in my style, for our own reasons.

what i was getting at was simply using your lead leg in the back stance position as a post to push back from. from my time with judo, and ever my sweeping training with karate, i understand how faulty it is to leave a leg out, unprotected and close to a skilled fighter. however, the pulling action would be quick and the leg is not ment to be held out there for any measurable length of time really, simly a tug into the low body shot.

any and every stance i have praticed in karate are not without there waeknesses and strengths. i would not tell you to use the back stance regardless of the posibility of your lead leg being snatched up, we have to provide the right answer for the situation at hand. the philosophy behind nishiyama's style of karate is still above my head, my goal is to make what i learn from the ITKF work for me. the application i posted has worked for me under the stress of a resistant partner in class.

another posibility for the extended leg could be to use it to reach around the opponents legs in preperation for a osoto gari. in any situation, the core principals of what it is to fight should not be broken, of coarse. dispite the fact that we ware gi's, we do not know all there is about fighting.

thanks for the response
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#369762 - 11/26/07 12:06 PM Re: Heian Nidan Bunkai [Re: Victor Smith]
Barad Offline
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Posts: 427
Victor,

I think I can picture the arm bar application you refer to from knifehand-it is sort of what I was trying to describe earlier.

As for three identical movements in sequence, in Shotokan we see that in Heian Shodan, Nidan,Sandan and Yondan, Jion, Jitte, Jiin, Bassai Dai and Sho. Does it have significance or does it just give the kata a suitable enbusen to get you back where you started? As you say, no one can know for certain but I would be interested in anyone else's theories...

B

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#369763 - 11/26/07 12:11 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: medulanet]
student_of_life Offline
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i should add that the man who tought me the technique also had a dan ranking in a style of japanese jujutsu or judo, im not sure. he is canada's 10 year champ for kumite in the JKA canada.
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#369764 - 11/26/07 12:23 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
hedkikr Offline
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My explanation of the Shotokan back-stance was a transitional position. Essentially, shifting the body back to avoid a strike/kick thus "loading" the spring of the rear leg enabling you to launch a counter-strike (gyaku-tsuki).

Yeah, I know that there is no single correct explanation of kata bunkai but you have to admit, some are better than others.

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#369765 - 11/26/07 12:26 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: hedkikr]
student_of_life Offline
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for sure, bunkai bs is every where. i'd never trust something i never trained.
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#369766 - 11/26/07 12:30 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

i should add that the man who tought me the technique also had a dan ranking in a style of japanese jujutsu or judo, im not sure. he is canada's 10 year champ for kumite in the JKA canada.




Judes students thoughts.
For what it is worth I think some people throw haymakers to get a person to re-act so they can connect with another technique.

The chances of blocking/striking at the limb that is being used to punch by some one who can punch is low.
Eg watch early Tank.

If the guy can punch hard I dont think the technique would stop the blow.The ones I have seen throwing haymakers dont stand still. I also think that the guy thowing the haymaker cant be expected to only be intending to throw one punch.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (11/26/07 12:33 PM)

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#369767 - 11/26/07 12:36 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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with prober body dynamics you would be suprised what that position could withstand, when combined with proper body shifting and posture.

and the timing of the technique would be go no sen, the first attack is neturlized, then the counter lands before the opponent can throw a second attack. the counter is designed to stop his ability to throw another threating attack. if the timing of your counter fails, its not the techniques fault, its yours for messing up the timing. all the black belts and knowldege of techniques in the world won't matter if you can't use timing in a fight.

in the technique i outlined, the follow up to the haymaker was not a concern as long as you jolted him to the jaw when you entered into range as you deflected his attacking arm. failuer anywhere in the technique means you won't see the end. i think its a simple one.
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#369768 - 11/26/07 01:05 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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i should add, that the position of the guy in the vid is a little different then the one i pratice. if you want the "blocking" arm to withstand the force of a strong attack you'd not keep your forearm straight up, but more outward to deflect the force downward, as well as rotating the forearm on contact to sprial more force out of the arm. this may also lead to rising the bicept a bit more then level with the ground to add some droping and peeling to the deflection.
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#369769 - 11/26/07 01:32 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

with prober body dynamics you would be suprised what that position could withstand, when combined with proper body shifting and posture.

and the timing of the technique would be go no sen, the first attack is neturlized, then the counter lands before the opponent can throw a second attack. the counter is designed to stop his ability to throw another threating attack. if the timing of your counter fails, its not the techniques fault, its yours for messing up the timing. all the black belts and knowldege of techniques in the world won't matter if you can't use timing in a fight.

in the technique i outlined, the follow up to the haymaker was not a concern as long as you jolted him to the jaw when you entered into range as you deflected his attacking arm. failuer anywhere in the technique means you won't see the end. i think its a simple one.




A lot of variables there. If the opponent does as you want him to. Your assuming the opponent has his head up? Giving you his chin?
Suggestion.
Have your training partner wear a headgaurd and MMA gloves.
Have him tuck his chin down, opposite fore arm in front of his face and run after you with a lot of haymakers.
Next thing . Have him shout and point and basicly go nuts at you. Then attack when he is ready.
Some people call such training methods getting down and dirty.

From my limited observations. I think
your description seems to be a version of certain( Not all shotokan train only in this manner ) shotokan competition based fighting methods. Very clean and clinical.
People who thow hay makers I doubt if they do shotokan.



Quote

Kendo
Go-no-sen: When the opponent sees a suki and initiates an attack, winning by first striking down the opponentís sword or parrying, then attacking strongly when the opponent has become discouraged. Also called tai-no-sen.
End of quote.

I think some shotokan fighting methods are based a lot on budo.

Japanese karate.
Go no sen: Seizing the initiative later; Allowing your opponent to attack first so as to open up target for counter-attacks.



Jude


Edited by jude33 (11/26/07 01:50 PM)

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#369770 - 11/26/07 01:47 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
if he tucks his chin, hit him in the temple, or nose. or just use blunt force trama to his guard. it would vary to the situation.

"Next thing . Have him shout and point and basicly go nuts at you. Then attack when he is ready.
Some people call such training methods getting down and dirty."

i don't even know what you just said.

"You description seems to be a version of very shotokan competition based. Very clean and clinical.
People who thow hay makers I doubt if they do shotokan."

competetion based bunkai? i don't train bunkai to compete? how can you? last time i checked haymakers wernt in the shotokan sylabus. the attack i said was a haymaker man, a commen haymaker is an all out barn yard swing. a commen attack in self defence, thats what bunkai is for.

ans yes, i study a budo. heavely based on musashi's work. go no sen, is as you described. your opponents first attack is defeated, then you make your counter before he can hit again. there are shades of grey between the timings and they are interpreted differently. i think boxers call it hitting on the half beat.
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#369771 - 11/26/07 01:59 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
one more thing, you said shotokan competetion based. when in fact competetion is based on karate. what ever competetion your trying to imply to please show me an example, and i will probably tell you its not what i do.
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its not supposed to make sense

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#369772 - 11/26/07 02:14 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

if he tucks his chin, hit him in the temple, or nose. or just use blunt force trama to his guard. it would vary to the situation.




Nose? Temple?
Forarm across his face? Running at you?

Can I suggest you try the exercise?
Quote:


"Next thing . Have him shout and point and basicly go nuts at you. Then attack when he is ready.
Some people call such training methods getting down and dirty."

i don't even know what you just said.





They call then animal days. Instead of your training parner
standing and being passive ask him to throw things at you, snarl and get realy aggressive. Then try your technique.

Quote:


"You description seems to be a version of very shotokan competition based. Very clean and clinical.
People who thow hay makers I doubt if they do shotokan."

competetion based bunkai? i don't train bunkai to compete? how can you? last time i checked haymakers wernt in the shotokan sylabus. the attack i said was a haymaker man, a commen haymaker is an all out barn yard swing. a commen attack in self defence, thats what bunkai is for.





Just wiped the tears from my eyes!!

Mawashi/ Age/ Zuki Jodan from the hip ?
Karate Terminology ?

If bunkia is street fighting it might be considered down and dirty.
Dont think competition way of thinking will help somehow.


Just joking.

Quote:


ans yes, i study a budo. heavely based on musashi's work. go no sen, is as you described. your opponents first attack is defeated, then you make your counter before he can hit again. there are shades of grey between the timings and they are interpreted differently. i think boxers call it hitting on the half beat.




I have to admit I dont go for the Japanese way of thinking.
More western at the moment and studying the Okinawan and chinese methods with difficulty being a Westerner.

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#369773 - 11/26/07 02:31 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
whats wrong with the target choices?

"They call then animal days. Instead of your training parner
standing and being passive ask him to throw things at you, snarl and get realy aggressive. Then try your technique."

i said i trained it against a resisting partner. you don't get stonger or faster if you start yelling louder. are you for real?

"If bunkia is street fighting it might be considered down and dirty.
Dont think competition way of thinking will help somehow."

again with the competetion, if there's something you want to say out with it boy. if you don't like the application i won't cry. but please don't offer advice to my trainineg if i don't ask. thanks.
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its not supposed to make sense

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#369774 - 11/26/07 06:38 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

whats wrong with the target choices?

"They call then animal days. Instead of your training parner
standing and being passive ask him to throw things at you, snarl and get realy aggressive. Then try your technique."

i said i trained it against a resisting partner. you don't get stonger or faster if you start yelling louder. are you for real?

"If bunkia is street fighting it might be considered down and dirty.
Dont think competition way of thinking will help somehow."





I give up.
I must ask for forgive-ness for being unclear.
So I will try to be clearer.

So here is a book.
[url=http://sportzblitz.net/onlinestore/product.php?id=1738&c=&review=1]
http://sportzblitz.net/onlinestore/product.php?id=1738&c=&review=1[/url]

This is a book.

It is called animal day .

He is a 6th dan shotokan.
Quote:


again with the competetion, if there's something you want to say out with it boy. if you don't like the application i won't cry. but please don't offer advice to my trainineg if i don't ask. thanks.





Didnt offer advise.
Just an opinion.
If a person wants to test a technique there are certain seminars here where a person can.
Its called animal day. Pressure testing.They sometimes shout growl and snarl and liken things to real self defence fighting.
It has been said that when certain people attack other people they dont tend to square up.
Geoff Thompson runs animal days but a person would be best advised to check with him if a person can test their own technique or not on his seminars.
Personaly I dont think the application would work. To competition orientated.
But testing it at an/any animal day seminar somewhere might prove me wrong,

Do they have animal days in your Country? Perhaps they arent required.
Thought they were all over.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (11/26/07 07:14 PM)

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#369775 - 11/26/07 08:34 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
i have not herd of it, i would say that geof tompsons concepts are probably being trained by some group in canada though, he is a very popular self defence teacher. for good reason too.

usually when we train bunkai, we simply test different levels of intensity in the same session. ranging from going slowly to get the mechanics of it, then progerssion into harder and faster speeds. high intensity is trained, we just don't have an animal day, we are not passive in bunkai pratice.

hopefully if i get a video of the technique it might change your mind, maybe not. at least take a look if it gets posted please, and thanks. i take some offense wen you say that its a competetion based move, when it was designed against an HAOV, and designed to use se of what would be consider illegal attakcs in a competetion arena.
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

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#369776 - 11/26/07 09:22 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
When we practice our bunkai we do it with as much resistance as possible keeping safety in mind. I think Animal day would get someone hurt.

We also spar full contact,but I don't remember anyone ever growling or snarling.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#369777 - 11/27/07 05:22 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: BrianS]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

When we practice our bunkai we do it with as much resistance as possible keeping safety in mind. I think Animal day would get someone hurt.

We also spar full contact,but I don't remember anyone ever growling or snarling.




http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doci...h&plindex=0

1.43

Well, Some growl , snarl shout.

I should imagine it is getting a person use to dealing with the verbal side of a confrontation.

Jude

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#369778 - 11/27/07 05:25 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doci...h&plindex=0

3.55 looks like the attack your working the defence against

Jude

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#369779 - 12/06/07 04:53 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: student_of_life]
Wado-AJ Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 112
Loc: gorinchem, Holland
some more!

Trainingmethods
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA-O2YLoSDk

wado ido kihon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUXf3FB4S0A

bag and pad work
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncI-nLH6mZM

hope you enjoy the watch

AJ van Dijk
Karateschool Wadokan Gorinchem
Netherlands

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#369780 - 12/06/07 07:02 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Wado-AJ]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

some more!

Trainingmethods
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA-O2YLoSDk

wado ido kihon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUXf3FB4S0A

bag and pad work
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncI-nLH6mZM

hope you enjoy the watch

AJ van Dijk
Karateschool Wadokan Gorinchem
Netherlands




Didnt the founders son or one of the people who split from the main group do extensive further research in to the Ju Jitsu side of wado? If so any idea of the outcome?

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#369781 - 12/08/07 06:04 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
Wado-AJ Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 112
Loc: gorinchem, Holland
Quote:


Didnt the founders son or one of the people who split from the main group do extensive further research in to the Ju Jitsu side of wado? If so any idea of the outcome?




Actually I have never heard that they did "extra" research on jujutsu. I will ask about it, if I now some more I will surely post it.

AJ van Dijk
Karateschool Wadokan Gorinchem, Netherlands.
http://www.wadokangorinchem.nl
_________________________
Karateschool Wadokan Gorinchem www.art-of-budo.com

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#369782 - 12/08/07 06:18 AM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Wado-AJ]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:


Didnt the founders son or one of the people who split from the main group do extensive further research in to the Ju Jitsu side of wado? If so any idea of the outcome?




Actually I have never heard that they did "extra" research on jujutsu. I will ask about it, if I now some more I will surely post it.

AJ van Dijk
Karateschool Wadokan Gorinchem, Netherlands.
http://www.wadokangorinchem.nl




Ok.

Jude

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#369783 - 12/12/07 06:06 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: jude33]
Wado-AJ Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 112
Loc: gorinchem, Holland
I asked about it tonight but my sensei hasn't heard that they did extensive (extra) research in the Jujutsu.
_________________________
Karateschool Wadokan Gorinchem www.art-of-budo.com

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#369784 - 12/19/07 12:19 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Wado-AJ]
Wado-AJ Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 112
Loc: gorinchem, Holland
By Dr. Katsumi Hakoishi, JKF Wadokai Technical Committee member. Nippon Budokan arena Tokyo, 2005

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QslwdN2mz_Q


43rd Annual JKF Wadokai National Championships. First 2mins is a few hundred kids doing kihon & kata led by Takamasa Arakawa. The last 4mins is a yakusoku kumite demo. The attacker is Takamasa Arakawa and the defender is Koji Okumachi. Nippon Budokan arena. Tokyo, Japan. 26Aug07

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIBG_ycIuPI
_________________________
Karateschool Wadokan Gorinchem www.art-of-budo.com

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#369785 - 01/20/08 04:18 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Wado-AJ]
Wado-AJ Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 112
Loc: gorinchem, Holland
Kata trailer from DVD "The Way of Wado" by Shihan Ishikawa 8th dan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pIg4q_HjkU
_________________________
Karateschool Wadokan Gorinchem www.art-of-budo.com

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#369786 - 01/20/08 07:12 PM Re: some karate video's for your viewing pleasure [Re: Wado-AJ]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
sensei Nishiyama with justo gomez.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBgvDB9ffsA
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

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#369787 - 01/28/08 10:56 AM Shihan Ishikawa 8th dan demo 1984 [Re: student_of_life]
Wado-AJ Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 112
Loc: gorinchem, Holland
Shihan Ishikawa 8th dan Wado Ryu Karate demonstrated 2 days in a row at the Budogala in Rotterdam, Netherlands in 1984..

(this is the original sequence)

KIHON KUMITE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq6dhLNkgrE

KATA PINAN GODAN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMyHoverCTU

TAMESHIWARI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwp5ks0s0Ws

TANTO DORI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iPUBf4KQwI
_________________________
Karateschool Wadokan Gorinchem www.art-of-budo.com

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#369788 - 02/02/08 03:25 PM kata and tanto dori [Re: Wado-AJ]
Wado-AJ Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 112
Loc: gorinchem, Holland
_________________________
Karateschool Wadokan Gorinchem www.art-of-budo.com

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#369789 - 02/12/08 03:45 PM Re: kata and tanto dori [Re: Wado-AJ]
Wado-AJ Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 112
Loc: gorinchem, Holland
DVD Shihan Ishikawa "The Way of Wado" - KIHON TRAILER.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fo5b2Lzq0A

Wadoryu applied techniques: Uraken
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBWDkoWyDv8
_________________________
Karateschool Wadokan Gorinchem www.art-of-budo.com

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#369790 - 02/13/08 03:20 PM Re: kata and tanto dori [Re: Wado-AJ]
Wado-AJ Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 112
Loc: gorinchem, Holland
Wadoryu applied techniques: Maegeri
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTQyGqapQYw
_________________________
Karateschool Wadokan Gorinchem www.art-of-budo.com

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#369791 - 02/15/08 05:32 PM kata vid [Re: Wado-AJ]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
toru shimoji preforming unsu

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gPP8s_KXEpU


Edited by student_of_life (02/15/08 05:45 PM)
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

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#369792 - 02/15/08 06:22 PM Re: kata vid [Re: student_of_life]
Salek Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 474
Loc: Minnesota
at first i was a little sketchy on that Unsu but towards the end he won me over. the way he did that kata just made it look like a very old/traditional kata. not a lot of fancy motions(Luca Valdesi style) , just a lot of power...

nice
_________________________
He who does not punish evil commands it to be done.

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#369793 - 02/16/08 01:25 PM Re: kata vid [Re: Salek]
Wado-AJ Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 112
Loc: gorinchem, Holland
KARATE WADO ohyo gumite 4 by Shihan Ishikawa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDypkVumuQs

Wadoryu applied techniques: Uraken - nagashizuki
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO9DVA7JQ3M

wadoryu karate kata: pinan godan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0QMSpzP3qU


on Unsu: I'm not from Shotokan but the kata is alive if you ask me. Good one. Real karate.
_________________________
Karateschool Wadokan Gorinchem www.art-of-budo.com

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#369794 - 02/17/08 07:20 AM Re: kata vid [Re: Wado-AJ]
Wado-AJ Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 112
Loc: gorinchem, Holland
Wadoryu karate applied principles: shuto uke - tatezuki
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7cVFo_1aAU
_________________________
Karateschool Wadokan Gorinchem www.art-of-budo.com

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#369795 - 02/23/08 04:09 PM Re: kata vid [Re: Wado-AJ]
Wado-AJ Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 112
Loc: gorinchem, Holland
KARATE WADO Ido Kihon - Kette gyakuzuki
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2vpYtEJTU4

KARATE WADO Sanbon gumite chudan uke #6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKZcLMlzLQw
_________________________
Karateschool Wadokan Gorinchem www.art-of-budo.com

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#369796 - 02/29/08 05:21 PM Re: kata vid [Re: Wado-AJ]
Wado-AJ Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 112
Loc: gorinchem, Holland
Wadoryu: Sanbon gumite chudan uke gohonme
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqDqaqHbxnw
_________________________
Karateschool Wadokan Gorinchem www.art-of-budo.com

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#369797 - 03/01/08 12:32 PM Re: kata vid [Re: Wado-AJ]
Wado-AJ Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 112
Loc: gorinchem, Holland
KARATE - WADORYU - sanbon gumite chudan uke 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQmikZtCik8
_________________________
Karateschool Wadokan Gorinchem www.art-of-budo.com

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#369798 - 04/06/08 11:51 PM Re: kata vid [Re: Wado-AJ]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
I found Francisco Filho of Kyokushin Karate partaking in the famous 100 man kumite...

Below is part 1 of 6 just follow the links for the rest.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PC9JCJMAXGk

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