FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 76 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Shanktotheright, royal, bobgalle100011, agenonline, TooNice
22862 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Dobbersky 3
THEFOREVERMAN 3
MattJ 2
royal 2
cxt 1
April
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30
New Topics
Judo Olympic Games 1964 Tokyo, The Video Gallery
by ergees
04/01/14 05:26 AM
Muay Thai Seminar with Greg Nelson - Marcus Charle
by Marcus Charles
03/24/14 04:39 PM
Fighting On Saturday!!!
by Dobbersky
03/20/14 05:45 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
AKK kata question
by
09/04/05 01:27 PM
Recent Posts
Fighting On Saturday!!!
by THEFOREVERMAN
04/16/14 08:22 AM
Muay Thai Seminar with Greg Nelson - Marcus Charle
by THEFOREVERMAN
04/16/14 08:20 AM
AKK kata question
by MattJ
04/04/14 05:45 PM
Judo Olympic Games 1964 Tokyo, The Video Gallery
by ergees
04/01/14 05:26 AM
Forum Stats
22862 Members
36 Forums
35546 Topics
432378 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 10 of 11 < 1 2 ... 8 9 10 11 >
Topic Options
#429218 - 08/19/10 11:29 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: BigWiggly]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello BigWiggly:

Have not had the pleasure before, a pleasure to meet you! <small bow of friendly greeting>

You raise several issues. Lets start with ones assorted title(s). Perhaps this is my cultural bias, but if you are not of/from another culture, not a "national" of that specific culture, why on earth should we use THEIR terminology(ies) beyond literal identification if, if we absolutely must???

There are many who butcher irreparably whatever language they are pretending to use, and do so in order to create and maintain an entirely artificial higher "status". Idiotic foolishness. "... great you can speak Tibetian, so what, you are still a massive jerk..."

What of others who need their titles? My name is Jeff. If you'd like to call me something (for class), I'm uncomfortable with it but if done low key enough, quietly, Ill try and ignore it.

But what kind of massive flatulence is it when the titles are screamed at the top of ones lungs, as a matter of so called culture. Militancy of a very specific (minor) time frame in history, is that atmosphere meaningful for good training?

Jeff

Top
#431055 - 12/06/10 05:28 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Raul Perez]
marieisabelle23 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/10
Posts: 1
what a nice draft...

Top
#431619 - 02/24/11 02:49 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: marieisabelle23]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 269
There's a lot of fraud in taekwondo, and both WTF and ITF are equally guilty. But I have learned quite a bit from the good schools that were in both WTF and the various ITF organizations. All good and bad schools insist on learning the signature TKD kicks, which are high-flying and fanciful, but this does not mean the schools are bad - quite the contrary.

One other thing - many TKD masters or grandmasters or whatever will also claim to be real dojos and even condemn the McDojo phenomenon, but, in truth, they're the Mcdojo operators. Take that observation of human nature for what that's worth.

Top
#431626 - 02/24/11 11:54 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello TaekwonDoFan:

If a TKD person with whatever (sic. silly) title claim to be teaching as "real dojos" they better be teaching a japanese art instead. Dojo is not the korean term wink

Different cultural atmospheres... yes?
Jeff


Edited by Ronin1966 (02/24/11 12:13 PM)

Top
#431893 - 04/04/11 12:15 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ronin1966]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
I think people join orgs for which they pay, therefore later to display, is an attempt to get them more credibility when they think what they have so far is not adequate.

I have never had a problem with teaching and my credentials. I never display anymore than what I am. That said, I do not go forth and display my identity on open forum for the main reason of political strife within the martial art systems I was among.

Furthermore, there are other schools that I know of, and their instructors, and despite not training with these, I can fully recommend to anyone who is more interested in anything apart from what I do. (They in reversal)

To the OP, Raul;

This subject became an issue during the 70's when a senator (whom was a student of Jhoon Rhee) tried to use his influence in Congress to find or establish a regulation for martial arts.

New Jersey:
ftp://www.njleg.state.nj.us/19981999/A2500/2216_I1.HTM

Oregon:
http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/legislativ...t/sgg04221.html

http://www.eastimorlawjournal.org/ARTICLES/2009/Regulation_of_Martial_Arts_in_East_Timor.html

http://martialartsbusinessdaily.com/424/texas-martial-arts-day-care/

However, the main attack for regulation nowadays is on MMA because of the aggressive display.

Top
#436008 - 09/13/13 01:20 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Raul Perez]
SoulJah22 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/13/13
Posts: 9
I agree that it is very difficult to asses every aspect of a school and validate it. The commercial styles such as TKD and Karate have made it much easier to research their history and understand the lineage that the art has been passed through. Home schools do not always have these resources available to the students, and therefore trust plays a major role.
One thing i do believe whole heartedly is that spirit does not lie. Use your intuition and follow it. Look at the students past and present, to decide if the art has actual application. If it has little application then it is a good bet that the "master" is pulling your leg. If the students are well trained, they will disciplined and refined in there actions martial or not. You should see intuition being employed.
I believe that a legitimate school will speak for itself. Mcdojos have an artificial feel to them. Credentials can be faked and rankings can be bought. Look toward the spiritual teachings of the school. Martial arts is a path of self realization and spiritual awakening.

Top
#436153 - 01/27/14 05:50 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Raul Perez]
ALPHABET_SOUP Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/17/14
Posts: 10
Loc: Perth Australia
Originally Posted By: Raul Perez


A system that does not engage in some sort of full contact environment is also suspect of being a “McDojo”. Any system of martial worth engages in some sort of resistant training or sparring. Schools that often lack credibility do not engage in such activities. There are many reasons why they do not. The usual answer is that their techniques are too “deadly” for sparring. The reality is that if full resisting partners were introduced most of the techniques these schools taught would be ineffective in subduing, injuring or even killing the assailant. Therefore to protect themselves from this reality the full resisting training is eliminated.

However, if you are looking for a more realistic or self defense oriented school a continuous full contact sparring that allows contact to most of the body (lower and upper extremities) is more suited toward your needs.

There are currently internet organizations that dedicate their time to researching and exposing schools in which conduct themselves in a less than ethical manner. Most of these organizations conduct themselves in what is called “forums” whereby martial artists from various styles and ranks discuss elements that are commonly found in more legitimate organizations and systems. During these online discussions many schools suspected of being fraudulent or adhering to a “McDojo” practice are uncovered and/or exposed. These forums are usually discovered during your internet research if the school has had a turbulent history in the views of different organizations.


While I certainly agree to much of what you said here, I will touch on a couple of points. First of all there is no such thing as a fully resisting opponent in training as they are not actively trying to cripple you, because it is training not a street fight. Secondly fully resisting is not always the best way to go, there are somethings that if you resist too much you will wind up getting seriously injured because the person applying it will have to apply full force (a wristlock for example).

Thirdly I often hear this "too deadly for sparring/competition" line from people who do combat sports when describing arts that do not compete and only train for self defence yet many techniques are removed from full contact (no such thing as that either) competitions for "the safety of the competitors". If these techniques are not too dangerous for competition then why take them out? Striking to the throat, neck or groin or breaking the knee with a low side kick is certainly not safe. Fourthly full contact sparring is not the be all and end all of training. For a start only certain targets are allowed and often these are parts of the body that can be conditioned to absorb blows, such as the stomach. You then add gloves, body armor and head gear and it instills a false sense of security because you think you know what its like to get hit. Exactly how do you prepare yourself to be hit in the throat, neck, groin, eyes, solar plexus, knee etc, you can't. Full contact sparring is not a Litmus test it is just a method of training. Full contact sparring is not the only way to add realism and in many ways it takes some of the realism away.

Fifthly the height of the techniques and the presence of flying and spinning kicks have no bearing on the credibility of the school or art unless every kick is aimed at people who are 7 feet tall. MMA is often see as the only legit art by the unenlightened and they do all 3 of those.

Sixthly internet forums can be a very unreliable way to gain information on the credibility of an art. You get people with no serious martial arts training offering their uninformed opinions, MMA fanboys who think that any art that does not appear in the UFC is a useless joke just because they saw some mid level TMA guy loose one fight to a grappler (never mind all the fights they won), people from Mc'Dojos/Mc'Dojangs go on forums too, people who spent 5 minutes watching a class and decided the whole art was crap because they didn't have the slightest clue what they were looking at, not every art is discussed on forums or makes videos, sour grapes from disgruntled former students, students who sucked at the first martial art they tried who didn't put in much effort when they were there and got beaten up saying the art was useless, instructors buttering up their own styles and people with bias towards a certain martial arts type etc.

Bottom line is to find a legitimate school do a little research to see if it is something you might like to do and go check out a class. If the instructor seems to know what he is doing and you think you can learn what you need to from them then give it a go. Any school worth a damn will offer one or two free lessons. Avoid contracts because it may take a while for you to discover if the art is any good or not or if you want to train to train there for a long time.

Top
#436155 - 01/28/14 06:56 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: ALPHABET_SOUP]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 892
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: ALPHABET_SOUP
Originally Posted By: Raul Perez


A system that does not engage in some sort of full contact environment is also suspect of being a “McDojo”. Any system of martial worth engages in some sort of resistant training or sparring. Schools that often lack credibility do not engage in such activities. There are many reasons why they do not. The usual answer is that their techniques are too “deadly” for sparring. The reality is that if full resisting partners were introduced most of the techniques these schools taught would be ineffective in subduing, injuring or even killing the assailant. Therefore to protect themselves from this reality the full resisting training is eliminated.

However, if you are looking for a more realistic or self defense oriented school a continuous full contact sparring that allows contact to most of the body (lower and upper extremities) is more suited toward your needs.

There are currently internet organizations that dedicate their time to researching and exposing schools in which conduct themselves in a less than ethical manner. Most of these organizations conduct themselves in what is called “forums” whereby martial artists from various styles and ranks discuss elements that are commonly found in more legitimate organizations and systems. During these online discussions many schools suspected of being fraudulent or adhering to a “McDojo” practice are uncovered and/or exposed. These forums are usually discovered during your internet research if the school has had a turbulent history in the views of different organizations.


While I certainly agree to much of what you said here, I will touch on a couple of points. First of all there is no such thing as a fully resisting opponent in training as they are not actively trying to cripple you, because it is training not a street fight. Secondly fully resisting is not always the best way to go, there are somethings that if you resist too much you will wind up getting seriously injured because the person applying it will have to apply full force (a wristlock for example).

Thirdly I often hear this "too deadly for sparring/competition" line from people who do combat sports when describing arts that do not compete and only train for self defence yet many techniques are removed from full contact (no such thing as that either) competitions for "the safety of the competitors". If these techniques are not too dangerous for competition then why take them out? Striking to the throat, neck or groin or breaking the knee with a low side kick is certainly not safe. Fourthly full contact sparring is not the be all and end all of training. For a start only certain targets are allowed and often these are parts of the body that can be conditioned to absorb blows, such as the stomach. You then add gloves, body armor and head gear and it instills a false sense of security because you think you know what its like to get hit. Exactly how do you prepare yourself to be hit in the throat, neck, groin, eyes, solar plexus, knee etc, you can't. Full contact sparring is not a Litmus test it is just a method of training. Full contact sparring is not the only way to add realism and in many ways it takes some of the realism away.

Fifthly the height of the techniques and the presence of flying and spinning kicks have no bearing on the credibility of the school or art unless every kick is aimed at people who are 7 feet tall. MMA is often see as the only legit art by the unenlightened and they do all 3 of those.

Sixthly internet forums can be a very unreliable way to gain information on the credibility of an art. You get people with no serious martial arts training offering their uninformed opinions, MMA fanboys who think that any art that does not appear in the UFC is a useless joke just because they saw some mid level TMA guy loose one fight to a grappler (never mind all the fights they won), people from Mc'Dojos/Mc'Dojangs go on forums too, people who spent 5 minutes watching a class and decided the whole art was crap because they didn't have the slightest clue what they were looking at, not every art is discussed on forums or makes videos, sour grapes from disgruntled former students, students who sucked at the first martial art they tried who didn't put in much effort when they were there and got beaten up saying the art was useless, instructors buttering up their own styles and people with bias towards a certain martial arts type etc.

Bottom line is to find a legitimate school do a little research to see if it is something you might like to do and go check out a class. If the instructor seems to know what he is doing and you think you can learn what you need to from them then give it a go. Any school worth a damn will offer one or two free lessons. Avoid contracts because it may take a while for you to discover if the art is any good or not or if you want to train to train there for a long time.



You come from the home of the Helicopter Kancho - Founder of GoKan Ryu (Kan Go Roo)

Some valid points, no one is saying Full Contact is a be all and end all for "realistic" sparring etc but this is (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhcuYjLiZos) . May I ask what School and experience you are coming from that validates you points (note this is just to ascertain how your conclusions to your excellent post is configured)?
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

Top
#436158 - 01/29/14 12:52 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Dobbersky]
ALPHABET_SOUP Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/17/14
Posts: 10
Loc: Perth Australia
Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
You come from the home of the Helicopter Kancho - Founder of GoKan Ryu (Kan Go Roo)


We may live in the same country but we have nothing in common.

Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
Some valid points, no one is saying Full Contact is a be all and end all for "realistic" sparring etc but this is (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhcuYjLiZos) .


I have never heard of Kudo before but Kudos to you for showing it smile.

My question is, realistic for what? Self defence, sport? If you look closely you will find that the striking in the video is about 95% attack, there is very little in the way of defence. Whether or not that is just in the highlights or the whole art is that way is another question that would require some research. Nice spinning heel kick at 1:50.

Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
May I ask what School and experience you are coming from that validates you points (note this is just to ascertain how your conclusions to your excellent post is configured)?


I come from Rhee TKD, which teaches the original self defence version of TKD, before any of the sporting elements were added. I have nearly 27 years of experience. We don't do a lot of videos but here are some that are on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFmfCGX0W7w

Not our usual type of demonstration:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KWEiezinXk

Some rare contact sparring one of our instructors did for a charity event.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH-RJwX8bn8

A little more information on the last video:

http://www.spec.com.au/blog/2011/10/10/leech-goes-100-rounds-for-charity/


Top
#436159 - 01/29/14 04:55 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: ALPHABET_SOUP]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 892
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: ALPHABET_SOUP
Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
You come from the home of the Helicopter Kancho - Founder of GoKan Ryu (Kan Go Roo)


We may live in the same country but we have nothing in common.

Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
Some valid points, no one is saying Full Contact is a be all and end all for "realistic" sparring etc but this is (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhcuYjLiZos) .


I have never heard of Kudo before but Kudos to you for showing it smile.

My question is, realistic for what? Self defence, sport? If you look closely you will find that the striking in the video is about 95% attack, there is very little in the way of defence. Whether or not that is just in the highlights or the whole art is that way is another question that would require some research. Nice spinning heel kick at 1:50.

Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
May I ask what School and experience you are coming from that validates you points (note this is just to ascertain how your conclusions to your excellent post is configured)?


I come from Rhee TKD, which teaches the original self defence version of TKD, before any of the sporting elements were added. I have nearly 27 years of experience. We don't do a lot of videos but here are some that are on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFmfCGX0W7w

Not our usual type of demonstration:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KWEiezinXk

Some rare contact sparring one of our instructors did for a charity event.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH-RJwX8bn8

A little more information on the last video:

http://www.spec.com.au/blog/2011/10/10/leech-goes-100-rounds-for-charity/



Hi Can you look at the post on the Sine Wave and respond as you're a TKD'ist?

Also there's not many Original TKD schools about they tend to be dare I say "belt factories" or focused on getting people into the Olympics etc. for me TKD WAS one of the best arts outthere. Is your style from WTF or ITF thanks
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

Top
Page 10 of 11 < 1 2 ... 8 9 10 11 >






Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Stun Guns
Variety of stun gun devices for your protection

Buy Pepper Spray
Worry about your family when you’re not around? Visit us today to protect everything you value.

Koryu.com
Accurate information on the ancient martial traditions of the Japanese samurai

C2 Taser
Protect yourself and loved ones from CRIME with the latest C2 Taser citizen model. Very effective.

 

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga