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#369497 - 09/15/08 02:19 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Raul Perez]
imperial_crane Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Maryland, USA
Hi Raul,

I know this is long overdue but I just read your post introduction. Yes, you make great points about fraud. Unfortunately you may incorrect concerning dojo that don't spar could be suspect as a McDojo. We do not spar in my Shorin Ryu dojo and we are definitely far from a McDojo. Just thought you would like some other feedback. We practice Yakusoku kumite but not a free spar.

Thanks.

Paul
_________________________
Paul S.
Imperial Crane Martial Arts
Maryland, USA

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#369498 - 09/15/08 05:44 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: imperial_crane]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Could you explain yokusuku kumite?
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#369499 - 09/15/08 05:47 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: BrianS]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
im sure Paul will confirm and perhaps expand (maybee in the karate section), but essentially it translates to pre-arranged fighting , I add the word drills on to that.

It is your 1,2,3 step drills etc etc, and they tend to be fairly fixed in delivery of attack and defence.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#369500 - 11/19/08 10:17 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: shoshinkan]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
A good blog on the subject. The key point being...honesty/openness of individuals on their personal training.

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=423858376&blogID=448539573

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#369501 - 11/20/08 11:39 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: imperial_crane]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Quote:

Hi Raul,

I know this is long overdue but I just read your post introduction. Yes, you make great points about fraud. Unfortunately you may incorrect concerning dojo that don't spar could be suspect as a McDojo. We do not spar in my Shorin Ryu dojo and we are definitely far from a McDojo. Just thought you would like some other feedback. We practice Yakusoku kumite but not a free spar.

Thanks.

Paul




Paul,

Yakusoku Kumite is a platform to supply the practitioner with the most basic concepts of body positions and principles of fighting based on the art.

This SHOULD then lead up to light contact free sparring to test those principles and body positions in a more resistant environment. The final stage is full contact fighting to gain an understanding of how to utilize the techniques against a fully resistant opponent.

Without this progression the practitioner fails to understand or is not properly trained in true timing and the dynamics of what it feels like to get hit full force.

In my opinion without some sort of free sparring your training is not going to fully enrich you in the ability to effectively and efficiently defend yourself in a real life encounter.

Be ye McDojo or not a McDojo.
_________________________
"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

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#369502 - 11/30/08 10:15 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Raul Perez]
imperial_crane Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Maryland, USA
Hi Raul & Jim,

Sorry but I neglect to check this forum a lot. My apologies.

Jim was right with the pre-arranged sparring idea of Yakusoku kumite. We also do a semi-free sparring (kind of hard to explain) where each pair strikes back and forth at each other while working on combinations including blocks, strikes, trappings, etc. etc. but not all out.

Raul said, "In my opinion without some sort of free sparring your training is not going to fully enrich you in the ability to effectively and efficiently defend yourself in a real life encounter." - I counter with interesting statement on your part. I never knew that a real life self defense situation was like a sparring match. The last time I got in a real fight, which was about 8 years ago, there were no rules. I was hitting hard and with no pulled punches or were either of us wearing pads or groin protectors.

Raul, in all sincerity please enlighten me on how free sparring will help me to defend myself from a beating on the streets. I don't see a connection.

Thanks.

Paul
_________________________
Paul S.
Imperial Crane Martial Arts
Maryland, USA

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#369503 - 11/30/08 10:53 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: imperial_crane]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

The last time I got in a real fight, which was about 8 years ago, there were no rules.




I've said it before, and I'll say it again, there are rules in a streetfight. They are called laws. Break them and you go to jail.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#369504 - 12/04/08 11:19 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ames]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Paul,

Your question seems to bring me more confusion based on your above post. You state that you’ve never been in a fight that “looked” like a sparring session and that the last time you were in a fight it was hard with no pulled punches and no rules. However, your preferred METHOD of training is one that consists of the MOST rules and considered probably one of the MOST passive training one could perform aside from line drills. Some how I can not make the correlation as to why you choose not to incorporate some sort of free sparring into your training based on your prior experiences.

To address your post more specifically here is how I believe free sparring adds to aid in increasing your effectiveness in a self-defense situation:

1 – Full force blows – Allowing full force blows provides the student with a more realistic feeling of what it will feel like to deliver a full force blow to an opponent and what it feels like to be hit full force from an opponent. Something you should be psychologically prepared for and fully understand in order to avoid the mental cramping and log jam that occurs when adrenaline kicks in during a real life encounter.

2 – A Moving Target – Unlike Yakusoku Kumite and like a realistic encounter your opponent will be able to move AT WILL. Being exposed to this is essential and allows the student to begin strategy on how to corner and limit mobility of an opponent to deliver full force blows.

3 – Timing and Resistance – Yokusoku Kumite does provide some timing training however there is no resistance therefore the student will be unfamiliar as to how much strength and timing would really be required to produce the technique or principal in real time against an opponent bent on taking your face off and not allowing you to fully execute your desired technique. This is essential to understand how to time techniques against someone hell bent on hurting you throwing full force techniques. This is even more important when incorporating throwing techniques.

4 – Pressure Testing Techniques – Techniques and principles of combat work great against a passive opponent. However when introduced to a resisting opponent one will realize that what worked great in Yakusoku Kumite doesn’t seem to either work or does not gain the desired result as easily as it did. This is because now this technique or principle is being utilized against an opponent who is adrenalized, resistant, scrappy and mobile. Thus rearranging your timing, strength and strategy is required to achieve the desired result.

Does sparring have rules? Yes. The amount of rules is based on the instructor’s discretion and goals he/she wants to achieve for their students. Is it more beneficial once the students achieve an understanding of the yakusoku kumite principles, absolutely in my opinion.
_________________________
"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

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#369505 - 12/04/08 01:44 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ames]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Quote:

Quote:

The last time I got in a real fight, which was about 8 years ago, there were no rules.




I've said it before, and I'll say it again, there are rules in a streetfight. They are called laws. Break them and you go to jail.

--Chris





Tell that to the guys I know walking around with bit off nose and ears!!! A lot of times a street fight is anynomus with only two people to tell the story you and he. The laws that you have mentioned are only in affect if you know or can describe the suspect (which is kinda hard to do after a tramatic conflict or concussion). I go into a street fighting thinking all bets are off no rules, break my leg before I break yours. bring some a$$ to get some.

Protected by the Law, the Law of the Fist or survival. The Law is there to protect the civil and ones that will comply, whatabout the ones that don't. I think we call them criminals they do exist.
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#369506 - 12/04/08 06:51 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Neko456]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

Protected by the Law, the Law of the Fist or survival. The Law is there to protect the civil and ones that will comply, whatabout the ones that don't. I think we call them criminals they do exist




Yes, criminals, and those who attack you aren't concerned about the law. Unfortunately, if you defend yourself in a way that is (in the law's eyes) unjustified, then you will also be considered a criminal in court.

I'm not saying it's fair--it puts the defender at a disadvantage. But unfotunately, it's the way things are.
You have to do what's needed, obviously. But, imo, you also have to be aware of the potential for what you do to be held against you. Saving your ass is pointless if you overreact and maim someone and can't prove you had to--you'll end up alive, sure, but in a prison cell.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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