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#369457 - 11/21/07 11:36 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: MattJ]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Actually, fighting skills do not automatically equate to communication skills needed to teach, or even a deep technical understanding.
Who would you have rather taken boxing lessons from - Mike Tyson the champ or Cus D'Amato?

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#369458 - 11/22/07 01:18 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: JAMJTX]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Jam

I think that is an excellent point....at the end of the day, your not really paying someone for THEIR ability to beat people up---your paying htem to teach YOU how to do it.

In context, I rather tell people that Mike Tyson was my personal boxing coach--people would be impressed.
BUT--if I knew I was going to have to box someone for real---I'd be begging for Cus DAmato to teach me.

Another thing that often gets overlooked is that the marketing claims used by scam-a-rei seldom revolve around their personal arse-kicking abilty...but instead focus on other areas--such as persoanl ranking and line of decent of the art.

Which brings up another problem---at least in the weapons sections of the koryu--and some Chinese systems--maybe others for all I know.

Students are often just as serious about the legitmacy of the teacher as they are about his abilty to kick butt.
If a teacher is claiming to teach say Shinkage Ryu, then his abiltity to "fight good" is more than beside the point.
They are interested in the history of the art and its direct links to it past as well.

I'm sure there are lots of opinions here......I just think that there are some other aspects to consider....IMO.

There are other things to be considered here......IMO.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#369459 - 11/22/07 02:40 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: JAMJTX]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
People who teach out of their homes or community centers are just as capable of being fakes as anyone else. Plus, people who train out of their homes are few and far between.

However, you are dead right about the belt ranking system. If the belt ranking system is so important, how is it some martial arts (e.g. boxing) can get along without it? The truth is belt rankings = promotion tests, which in turn = testing fees.

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#369460 - 11/22/07 03:57 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: JAMJTX]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Actually, fighting skills do not automatically equate to communication skills needed to teach, or even a deep technical understanding.
Who would you have rather taken boxing lessons from - Mike Tyson the champ or Cus D'Amato?





Buster Douglas.



I dont think it was just Cus D,Amato who trained Mike Tyson.
There were a whole heap of other people involved with their experiences.
Look at the difference in styles between Floyd Patterson
and Tyson.
I dont mean their physical or mental make up.

One of the main communication of boxing skills to Tyson was made by Tyson . He studied the art of boxing as well as being trained.


Jude

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#369461 - 11/22/07 04:08 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ronin1966]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Hello Matt:

If I can DO a particular technique, yet cannot explain anything, do you honestly contend I am ~skilled~?

Jeff



From my studies.
Not just anybody can kick or punch in a manner that will win a fight.
A person can be skilled with out having the ability to explain things.
Some do have both.

Jude

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#369462 - 11/22/07 10:12 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ronin1966]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ronin,
I explain things to students all the time, but they must first have developed the basic skill to understand the criticism or instruction. I've told some students repeatedly, the same information over and over again... and it doesn't "stick"... others, I teach one time, and they "do it".

There has to be understanding "between" teachers and students... and the proof of it is on the floor. Many instructional methods involve thousands of repetetive actions to build "muscle memory"... some involve hesitations or redirection... not all instructions are the same or with the same intent. How well the instructional process is going is shown "on the floor" during randori and free practice.

Sometimes, but not often, you simply have a student that "doesn't get it"... no matter how much instruction you give them, or how you craft the information. Martial arts are physical skills learned through a combination of mental exercise and physical exercise... teachers are "information in motion".

My back limits me from teaching skills I once taught, but I have students that can teach them, as they were taught. When I first started training, I tried to pay my sensei for lessons... his answer was simply to "pass it on" to others... which I have done, and have been doing for 45 years. How well it's worked out is "on the floor" with anybody I've trained... not confrontation, but "before you" in either randori, free practice, or instructing.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#369463 - 11/22/07 11:13 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: JAMJTX]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Actually, fighting skills do not automatically equate to communication skills needed to teach, or even a deep technical understanding.
Who would you have rather taken boxing lessons from - Mike Tyson the champ or Cus D'Amato?




Understood. The point that I was making is that it is unlikely to have a (technically proficient) "baffoon" that has NO technical understanding of what he does. Can others with less technical skill be better instructors? Certainly.

Cus D'amato may be better. But If Tyson is 'all you can get', I think you'll learn just fine.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#369464 - 12/03/07 12:43 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ronin1966]
GSD Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 14
What about "reputable" orgs. that send letters stating that you have been nominated into a "hall of fame" then add "send a check for X amount of money and you will be inducted into the hall of fame" ? Isn't that Fraud?
Also, what does that say for the martial arts instructor that goes for it? Isn't that Fraud?
I was always under the impression that there could only be ONE PERSON inducted into a "Hall of Fame" as "Instructor of the year".
I always thought that Martial Arts was about Honor , not Ego .
I see nothing wrong with making a living by teaching. But to take advantage of the publics "lack of knowledge" is sinful.

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#369465 - 12/03/07 12:51 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: GSD]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Name one. A 'reputable' one that sends an invite to a 'hall of fame' for money. I'm curious to hear if such exists.

Quote:

What about "reputable" orgs. that send letters stating that you have been nominated into a "hall of fame" then add "send a check for X amount of money and you will be inducted into the hall of fame" ?



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#369466 - 12/03/07 01:45 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: harlan]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
I think its fairly easy to spot frauds and bad teaching in terms of what they are training you to do.
Drill it against non-complient people to see if it works often and see if there is any an example anywhere on the planet of what your being shown working in some kind of fight or assault,especialy against the best fighters.

If it cannot be proven in those ways then,for me,its a bit iffy.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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