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#369437 - 11/10/07 11:34 PM Fraud and the Martial Arts
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Being an Auditor by trade part of my responsibilities are to design tests to detect if any fraud or illegal acts have occurred at a client’s business. Although it is a difficult task, businesses have to adhere to federal, state, and/or regulatory provisions and laws. Therefore I can design tests to validate if the entity adhered to those specific laws or regulations.

Unfortunately to apply such procedures towards martial arts schools is an extremely difficult task. Besides having to adhere to State and Federal taxation laws and Generally Accepting Accounting Principles for bookkeeping there is no organization that regulates how a martial arts school operates. There are small and large organizations that attempt to govern and standardize specific martial arts styles however enrollment in these organizations is not mandatory.

Because of this glaring loop hole the martial arts market has been flooded with fraudulent activities such as: Forging of rank or status, buying rank from an incredulous organization, creation of a new system of martial arts with little or no actual formalized training, creating fake masters or teachers to support the newly created system, and claiming to have and teach “mysterious” martial applications. All of which has been easily perpetuated due to the general public’s ignorance regarding martial arts and the general perception of oriental customs, mysticism and folklore.

Martial art schools that may contain a higher risk of such activities are commonly referred to as “McDojos”. A McDojo as defined by www.wikipedia.com is, “a martial arts school where image or profit is of a higher importance than technical standards. While using the term McDojo primarily indicates judgment of a school’s financial or marketing practices, it also implies that the teaching standards of such school are much lower than that of other martial arts schools, or that the school presents non-martial arts training as martial arts. Sometimes, a McDojo's practices may border on fraud.”

Based on this it would appear that the only litmus paper to validate if the martial arts school is credible is to see if the practitioners/instructors can apply their chosen discipline in a combative environment (incorporating all ranges of combat) aka an actual street fight. In an effort to save yourself from unwanted medical bills and lawsuits from issuing challenge matches there are other ways to gain reasonable assurances regarding the credibility of a school.

Inquiry:

Have a conversation with the head of the school. Gain information regarding his former teachers, a description of his style, the origins of the style, how long has he/she been training, the current rank of the head instructor, is it tournament oriented or is it self defense oriented, do they spar and what rules are associated with the sparring, does he/she have documented proof of his lineage and certifications, which organization (if any) is the school affiliated with, what is the payment plan to enroll, how long have the other instructors been involved in the system, and who primarily instructs the classes (both children and adults).

Be aware that there is a significant issue of concern regarding 10th degree black belts (aka Sokes or Masters). Especially if the instructor is associated with or awarded rank from the “World Sokeship Council” or a similar organization. There have been no cases against the organization, of which I am aware of, but many cases of “suspected” schools with founders of martial arts systems have been affiliated with such organizations.

A system that does not engage in some sort of full contact environment is also suspect of being a “McDojo”. Any system of martial worth engages in some sort of resistant training or sparring. Schools that often lack credibility do not engage in such activities. There are many reasons why they do not. The usual answer is that their techniques are too “deadly” for sparring. The reality is that if full resisting partners were introduced most of the techniques these schools taught would be ineffective in subduing, injuring or even killing the assailant. Therefore to protect themselves from this reality the full resisting training is eliminated.

Payment plans used have also raised some issues of concern. Although it is not a universal litmus test, many schools that require students to sign contracts are often suspected of being a “McDojo”. The reason being is that once you have committed to a contract and you wish to discontinue your enrollment you are obligated by law to continue payments to the school until the contract has reached maturity. Non-payment would result in negative effects on your credit rating and/or impending law suits. Therefore the school has achieved a locked commitment from the student and ensured a steady revenue stream. More credible schools adhere to a monthly, class pass, or pay per class system whereby no contract is signed and discontinuing your enrollment would be of a less financial burden.

Observation:

Once the inquiry has competed and you are satisfied with the outcome of the discussion you should observe the class in which you or your family members are going to participate. You should also observe the advanced classes or black belt classes.

During the observation of the class you or your family members are going to attend you should note some of the following: does the instructor properly control the class at all times, does the instructor stress proper body mechanics, are some students treated as “favorites”, how does the instructor deal with non-attentive or disrespectful students, and are the techniques targeted at a low level (waist level or lower) or are the techniques targeted at a high level (above waist level).

During the observation of the advanced level class you should note some of the following: do the advanced level students performing crisp technical forms, is there a snappy aspect to their technique, is their technique somewhat lazy or sloppy and do they have proper body mechanics (i.e. hips square when punching). The advanced ranks are your barometer for the teaching ability of the instructing staff.

Again, although this is not the universal truth most schools labeled as “McDojos” offer more flashy and acrobatic techniques. This is associated with high level kicks, flying and spinning kicks as well as back flips and radically spinning weapons techniques.

Also, most but not all “McDojos” offer point sparring. This is which the participants engage in a sparring match where scoring is based on contact from the waist up. When contact is made there is a break in the match and a point is awarded. A common trait of “McDojos” is that point sparring is based on light or “fake” contact. “Fake” contact constitutes a technique coming close to the scoring area but not actually making contact but a point is awarded regardless of contact being made. To be clear there is nothing wrong with this type of training if that is what you are looking for. However, if you are looking for a more realistic or self defense oriented school a continuous full contact sparring that allows contact to most of the body (lower and upper extremities) is more suited toward your needs.

Participation:

After you are satisfied with the inquiry and observation of the potential school you should participate in the class. Most schools offer a free trial class to see if you like the training. During the participation you should feel welcomed in the class, the instructor should spend some time with you acclimating you to the techniques of the system or designate a proper upper rank to do so, and you should be involved in a sufficient amount of physical exercise whereby you are “breaking a sweat.

There has been a significant trend in some systems in which “no touch knock outs” have been employed as part of the training regimen. During such training a heavy amount of emphasis is based on energy projection of “chi” or “ki” and pressure point methodology based on “Traditional Chinese Medicine” or TCM for short. This type of training is regarded within the martial arts community as highly radical and the actual combative application of such methods are suspect to a high degree of criticism.
The techniques in such training usually involve passive resistance and static opponents to achieve a “knock out”. Also, the degrees by which each participant varies as to how they react towards energy projection and pressure point attacks. Some people are very “sensitive” toward such attacks while others are basically not affected. Often those of an athletic back ground are not as susceptible towards such attacks. Based on this high degree of variability the sole reliability on such techniques does not seem logical if your goal is self defense oriented. To date there seems to be no substitute for hard training based on blood , sweat and tears.

External Parties:

Finally, information obtained during the inquiry, observation, and participation phase should be confirmed through an external party. Such external parties include discussions or correspondence with the school owner’s former instructors, association to which the school is governed by, and internet research regarding the system, system lineage, and the school owner.

During your internet research you may obtain information which would bring to your attention areas of concern regarding the system or the particular school you are about to enroll in. There are currently internet organizations that dedicate their time to researching and exposing schools in which conduct themselves in a less than ethical manner. Most of these organizations conduct themselves in what is called “forums” whereby martial artists from various styles and ranks discuss elements that are commonly found in more legitimate organizations and systems. During these online discussions many schools suspected of being fraudulent or adhering to a “McDojo” practice are uncovered and/or exposed. These forums are usually discovered during your internet research if the school has had a turbulent history in the views of different organizations.

Although none of these techniques are absolute standing alone a combination of these procedures will give you more insight and empower you with the proper amount of knowledge to make a more informed decision. I wish you a happy journey on your quest for the right school and above all else train hard.

Regards,
Raul
_________________________
"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

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#369438 - 11/11/07 12:12 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Raul Perez]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Excellent post, Raul! This is sticky material. I would add to the internet inquiry/research phase, a check of the school on the Better Business Bureau (or local equivalent) would be a good idea, too.

Great job, bro!
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#369439 - 11/11/07 12:24 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: MattJ]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Thanks. I've been on the forums for well over 5 years so I figured I would contribute something of value instead of giving people the finger and biting ankles
_________________________
"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

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#369440 - 11/11/07 02:34 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Raul Perez]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Raul

Excellent post.

Thanks!

Can't tell you how many times someones marketing claims got them into trouble.

Fakes, frauds, chislers and scam-a-rei they just can't seem to help themselevs.

Educating the public is a neverending task.

The "soke" group you mention is often suspect because they extraordinarly low standards for membership, yet "sound" impressive ot the layperson.

As an aside, I'm not a fan of "continious" sparring unless closely watched---it has similar problems to "point-sparring" unless ITS ALSO closely watched.
Its hard to "continiously" spar after getting hit hard--so what you get is people "pulling" their shots.
Same problem with using the bogu to much, you sorta get dependent on the armor.

IMO, its not "types" of sparring that need to be avoided, its how they are used that matters.


Edited by cxt (11/11/07 02:44 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#369441 - 11/11/07 10:05 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: cxt]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
The real problem is that fraud is so rampant that there is just no way any more to tell. Some of the most well known "experts" in the U.S., (especially on forums) are frauds themselves. Even respecetd publications have been known to prop up fakes and discredit good people.

Anymore, you students just have to find a school that they like and go there with the knowledge that most of the competing instructors in the area will say that teacher is a fake.

The best thing to do is just stay away from commercial schools in general. Look for someone that teaches out of thier home, a community center or other non-profit place.
Never sign any kind of contract.

One of the best things that "legitimate" schools can do is do away with the ranking system. If there are no ranks, there's no way to sell ranks and then there's no way to be accused of selling rank. Which has been happening since the very start of it.

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#369442 - 11/12/07 08:51 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: JAMJTX]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Commendable post, and I hope it gets 'stickied' for future reference.

I'd just like to reiterate JAMJTX's position that it's good advice for commercial dojos, with the reminder that not every newbie is looking for a discipline for it's 'martial worth'. Face it...many people that are very happy with their arts are not concerned with the martial side/potential.

As for scratching a bit deeper, to find non-commercial training, I think it's a bit trickier to go about verifying the 'credentials'. I wouldn't suggest the 20 questions approach if applying to koryu, or private dojos. Research is good, and an openness to answering questions is always preferable...but the 'contract' is different...and different rules apply.

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#369443 - 11/13/07 02:22 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: JAMJTX]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Quote:

The real problem is that fraud is so rampant that there is just no way any more to tell. Some of the most well known "experts" in the U.S., (especially on forums) are frauds themselves. Even respecetd publications have been known to prop up fakes and discredit good people.




I'd have to disagree mainly because that is an extreme defeatist attitude. There are various ways as indicated in the initial post to validate that what they say they teach and the credentials which they say they have. If there is a lack of a paper trail that should be the first sign of something "wierd". Just because there may be a high amount of fraudulent behavior does not mean there is nothing we can do about it.


Quote:

The best thing to do is just stay away from commercial schools in general. Look for someone that teaches out of thier home, a community center or other non-profit place.
Never sign any kind of contract.




Disagree again. Just because it is commercialized does not mean that the instructor is not valid or has fraudulent tendencies. However, this may increase the risk. To just say all commercial dojos are fraudulent is unacceptable. I would just recommend obtaining more information corroborating the assertions made by the owner.

Quote:

One of the best things that "legitimate" schools can do is do away with the ranking system. If there are no ranks, there's no way to sell ranks and then there's no way to be accused of selling rank. Which has been happening since the very start of it.




Wishful thinking but not going to happen. Judo started the belt fad. But most judoka are pretty tough. Especially the higher ranks. Hell, BJJ is derived from Judo techniques and their belt system has strong merit. The problem is not the belt system. Is what each belt system means for each system. If all belt systems represented actual skill resulting from countless hours of being tested against resisting opponents we would have less "masters" amongst us.
_________________________
"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

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#369444 - 11/13/07 02:35 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: harlan]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Quote:

I'd just like to reiterate JAMJTX's position that it's good advice for commercial dojos, with the reminder that not every newbie is looking for a discipline for it's 'martial worth'. Face it...many people that are very happy with their arts are not concerned with the martial side/potential.




Disagree with the commercial dojo situation. However I do agree with you regarding each person's expectations regarding different aspects of the martial arts. I tried not to make the initial post to go against the flashy martial arts but I tried to make a distinction. Because, in my opinion, the flashy stuff has a higher risk of fraud.

Quote:

As for scratching a bit deeper, to find non-commercial training, I think it's a bit trickier to go about verifying the 'credentials'. I wouldn't suggest the 20 questions approach if applying to koryu, or private dojos. Research is good, and an openness to answering questions is always preferable...but the 'contract' is different...and different rules apply.




Disagree. Everything applying to Koryu systems should and can be validated. Anyone can teach out of their garage and say they teach a secret, unchanged classical Japanese Koryu. What do they have to prove it. How was it handed down? Who was their teacher? can you verify it? Got Menkyo Kai Den?

Why, in your opinion, would questioning a teacher such as this would be inappropriate? Why is the contract different? What rules are different?
_________________________
"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

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#369445 - 11/13/07 10:52 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Raul Perez]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
"Everything applying to Koryu systems should and can be validated"
Not necessarily. Some things can be verified through generally accepted history. But as for who is legitimately teaching Koryu, for the most part it's just a matter of whou you choose to believe. The politics has made it that way.
Take a look here at the Kondo Sensei thread in the Daito Ryu forum. Kondo Sensei is seen by some, including Aikido-Journal (a respected publication here in the U.S.) as being the inheritor of Daito Ryu. Now they try to paint other Daito Ryu teachers as illegitimate or atleast not teaching Daito Ryu. Yet, it is quite common knowledge in Japan that there are problems with Kondo Sensei's claim. So who do you believe?
I was just looking today at another well known and respected koryu web site. They have information about 2 koryu systems, 1 Kenjutsu the other Iaijutsu. I know that both articles contain fabricated information. The one person who they are holding out as "Soke" has changed his own training history on his own web site several times over the last few years. Also, his "sokeship" is widely disputed in Japan. But anyone looking for information on these styles may very well end up not training with a legit teacher based on the politics of this web site publisher.

The same publisher had an article that discredited a very well known teacher of Ninjutsu. Then they started selling books on the web site of one of this teachers students. Suddenly, that article is gone.

The Budo has become totally corrupt and polluted. Rank, titles and now even history and lineage mean absolutely nothing outside of your own dojo.

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#369446 - 11/14/07 10:51 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Raul Perez]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Raul:

Let's jump in this with both feet

1) What do you do with the my teacher is dead factor? How do we ask a dead person if you trained with them or not?

2) They have disappeared factor? (ie ~...she trained me back in 61-68 but became an alcoholic, disappeared completely off the map routine (or some variation of that kind of story)...~) How do you penetrate that one?

3) Trained in Foreign Lands. ~... she trained near the shuri district in a school in 1975 (sic. now closed)...~
How do you get around this logistic/linguistic nightmare?

4) Monk status/monk trained individuals? ie They trained you, you claim to be a Taoist/Buddhist/Hindu/Tibetian/etc. Priest. Better yet you changed your name. How the blazes do you pin this Jello down?


I can think of a dozen more easily.

Jeff

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#369447 - 11/14/07 11:41 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ronin1966]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Ronin... clearly you want to make this fun

1) Your teacher who trained you is dead? Whats the lineage in your system? Is it traceable? Do you have papers? How's your technique? Can you pull it off on a resisting opponent? Try to validate if your dead teacher ever existed perhaps through forum discussions? Take a class? Talk to the parents? Do they spar? How do they spar? Etc.

2) They disappeared? See # 1

3) Another country? See # 1

4) Monk? Anyone claiming to be taught by a monk or claim to be a monk, or monk it up after clocking out after 5pm... are a higher risk. Not all. But generally I would stay away or tread with care. If I cant validate anything you say then why should I believe you?

FYI - through a simple forum discussion a person who claimed to be taught by someone in Japan was researched by individuals in Japan and found out to be fraudulent and that the picture of the person turned out to be lifted from the local currency and that person never existed. The "teacher" wasnt dead, an alcoholic who went AWOL, in another country, or monked once in high school. The person never existed!

And these "discoveries" have occurred more than once on something simple as a FORUM.

I find it interesting how this thread is beginning to be focused on my last section "External Parties"

Forget this sentence: "Although none of these techniques are absolute standing alone a combination of these procedures will give you more insight and empower you with the proper amount of knowledge to make a more informed decision."

More informed decision my friends, more informed decision. Dont go in blind. More informed decision.

First rule in auditing... the minute you feel management lacks integrity withdraw from the engagement.
_________________________
"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

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#369448 - 11/14/07 11:51 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: JAMJTX]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Quote:

"Everything applying to Koryu systems should and can be validated"
Not necessarily. Some things can be verified through generally accepted history. But as for who is legitimately teaching Koryu, for the most part it's just a matter of whou you choose to believe. The politics has made it that way.
Take a look here at the Kondo Sensei thread in the Daito Ryu forum. Kondo Sensei is seen by some, including Aikido-Journal (a respected publication here in the U.S.) as being the inheritor of Daito Ryu. Now they try to paint other Daito Ryu teachers as illegitimate or atleast not teaching Daito Ryu. Yet, it is quite common knowledge in Japan that there are problems with Kondo Sensei's claim. So who do you believe?
I was just looking today at another well known and respected koryu web site. They have information about 2 koryu systems, 1 Kenjutsu the other Iaijutsu. I know that both articles contain fabricated information. The one person who they are holding out as "Soke" has changed his own training history on his own web site several times over the last few years. Also, his "sokeship" is widely disputed in Japan. But anyone looking for information on these styles may very well end up not training with a legit teacher based on the politics of this web site publisher.

The same publisher had an article that discredited a very well known teacher of Ninjutsu. Then they started selling books on the web site of one of this teachers students. Suddenly, that article is gone.

The Budo has become totally corrupt and polluted. Rank, titles and now even history and lineage mean absolutely nothing outside of your own dojo.




The fact that YOU have this information and contribute to an open forum proves my point. If someone chooses to come to an open forum as ONE route to obtaining some information on a prospective school they have some sort of a fighting chance to gather enough information to make a more informed decision.
_________________________
"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

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#369449 - 11/15/07 01:18 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ronin1966]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Ronin

The simple answer is "if you can't pin it down" don't trust it.

Claims that can't be proven by the person making them should be taken with a grain of salt---just how much salt you need depends on the claims.

Sure, it always possible that someone is setting up an elaborate con--but its harder to pull off than you might think...over time anyway.

If a persons claims are "jello" then that is a red flag.

By itself, maybe nothing, but added to other red flags--a pattern starts to show up.



Edited by cxt (11/15/07 01:25 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#369450 - 11/15/07 01:31 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Raul Perez]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Raul

We even had somebody from Australia show up on the forum, she (if memory serves) was taking lesson from a guy that later (and many contintious discussions) proved to be spinning his claims---and as I recall stuff was being put by him on the certs he was giving students that he was not allowed to use--legally.

People talk, word gets around--and that is just one person on one forum and only time recently.


Edited by cxt (11/15/07 01:38 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#369451 - 11/16/07 10:29 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Raul Perez]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Raul:

<<Ronin... clearly you want to make this fun

Let's try and peel this martial onion! Yes, this should be fun. Do please note my questions were ~hypothetical~ I look forward to seeing how you, others might respond to such answers.

<< 1) Your teacher who trained you is dead? Whats the lineage in your system? Is it traceable? Do you have papers?

Is their a paper trail? Or a trail of any kind that you/I can objectively do the ~guided audio tour~ in reverse correct? Lets play this tape:

"...Smith now dead, trained with Dewey (a direct student of the founder), Jones, and many others more peripherally in the martial community in the late 50's and early 60's as was common practice of the era. He was a student directly for an unknown number of years with Dewey and then Jones (in his legendary inner city school) because there are no written records existing from that period, Dewey vanished from the face of the earth, and Jones is now dead and the respective group(s) went supernova splintering, and factioning several years prior to Jones actual death upto the present day. The peripheral groups from which Smith studied (rank claimed) will not respond to multiple verification requests. Their leaders who were in their 40's and 50's at that time are also now dead of natural causes. Smith's ranking cannot be verified with any certainty. He trained (and taught) with Smith for 9 years..." A long line of corpses and no governing bodies in sight.

~Hey would you mind making me a copy of your certificates, I want to check and see if you are real or fake~. Make sure people who signed them still love you, are alive and or that they do say what we both hope they say... my ability to read Tibetian/Japanese/Chinese/etc. has major limits

<< How's your technique? Can you pull it off on a resisting opponent?

Technical competance is a dangerous proof game. Lots of dangerous frauds exist. Tough and skilled are different creatures. But I understand your point. I was secretly hoping there were ~verification methods~ I hadn't thought of re: ~foreign study~ claims.

<<4) Monk? If I cant validate anything you say then why should I believe you?

Skeptic !

<<I find it interesting how this thread is beginning to be focused on my last section "External Parties"

I will apologize for my part if that helps ?


Jeff

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#369452 - 11/20/07 06:34 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Raul Perez]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
"Documentation" isn't all you crack it up to be... Isshin Ryu has been having document wars for years, mostly because Shimabuku Sensei had a sense of humor and told everybody he promoted and sent to the United States that "you're in charge of Isshin Ryu in the U.S.". Over the years, I've seen some absolutely hilarious confrontations over "documents" that were "issued by so and so"... "These are fakes because he only used RED ink when he stamped certificates..." and it goes on and on from there.

If you founded a legitimate style, the technical and "legal" aspects of it are pretty simple. You document your techniques or the methods being used, and then perform the techniques before a legitimate organization who can determine if your methods and techniques meet "muster". If they do, you can consider yourself "legitimate", if not... it needs work. It's the example set by the Danzan Ryu style of Jujutsu.

The paper trail of "styles" and systems are all pretty well paved with "fees" for testing and certificates, and you can find all kinds of "crossover" ranks issued for switching from one organization to another one... with or without a test, that are all "mainstream" martial arts. Now that "certificates" are money makers, the organizations do all they can to keep the cash flow increasing... up to and including sending certificates by email.

One of the reasons I always sought out "master instructors" was because their reputations and organizations were all solidly built on good martial arts. There were always "splinter groups" that came off them, but the main thrust of training with a true "master instructor" doesn't change much.

Two of my old teachers are dead now, and I don't have a certificate from either one of them... but I valued their teaching and friendships very highly. You're welcome to razz me about the "studied with dead instructors" if you want to... but it didn't happen in a vacuum... there were plenty of other people there to witness our training... and unless you're claiming that you trained privately with one of the dead masters, there should be corroberation that you did... pictures with them, if nothing else.

45 years ago, there were no "organizations" that were certifying anything to do with martial arts. We had to drive for hours just to find instructors... some good, some bad... and we ran into plenty of them that left Japan or Korea as a nidan and landed as 6th, 7th, or 8th Dans or "master so and so"... The legitimate ones "had the goods"... the others, just ran scams...

In the late sixties or early seventies, the U.S. Judo Association sued the International Judo Federation over the issuing of rank certificates and their use as a means of keeping American competitors out of international judo tournaments. The finding of the court was that "all rank had to be accepted in open competition", and that each country should set up a governing body of it's particular sport to oversee that function. Today, there are still splinter groups of every martial art, no central authority(except in a few sports that are done at the Olympic level) and all the hounds still baying at the moon about "legitimate" and "illegitimate" rank.

To show you how crazy it is, when I tested for my Nidan in Judo, I scored high enough to be ranked Godan (5th Degree). I had no longevity with the association where I was testing, so they would only issue the Nidan certificate... for years, I got a letter every year offering me some kind of promotion if I just sent in my money, and was actually offered higher rank than I scored on my test when a splinter organization started up... so much for "testing standards"...

The proof of martial arts is "on the floor" and "on the mats". Training is training, and it can be good or bad... want to spot a faker?... put the pressure on him in a class or in randori... not in a chat room. If he's any good, he can stand his ground.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#369453 - 11/21/07 04:49 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: wristtwister]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Wristtwister:

With respect any baffoon can punch or kick, but a teacher uses words. Your response concerns me... it seems to imply I must win to be a non-fraud (ie the real thing). Am I missing something...?


Jeff

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#369454 - 11/21/07 05:02 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ronin1966]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Hello Wristtwister:

With respect any baffoon can punch or kick, but a teacher uses words. Your response concerns me... it seems to imply I must win to be a non-fraud (ie the real thing). Am I missing something...?


Jeff




I don't see where the confusion is. Technical proficiency IS the most certain indicator of skill.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#369455 - 11/21/07 05:26 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: MattJ]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Matt:

If I can DO a particular technique, yet cannot explain anything, do you honestly contend I am ~skilled~?

Jeff

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#369456 - 11/21/07 05:51 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ronin1966]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Well.......yes. It is unlikely that someone would become broadly skilled and not be able to explain anything.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#369457 - 11/21/07 11:36 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: MattJ]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Actually, fighting skills do not automatically equate to communication skills needed to teach, or even a deep technical understanding.
Who would you have rather taken boxing lessons from - Mike Tyson the champ or Cus D'Amato?

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#369458 - 11/22/07 01:18 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: JAMJTX]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Jam

I think that is an excellent point....at the end of the day, your not really paying someone for THEIR ability to beat people up---your paying htem to teach YOU how to do it.

In context, I rather tell people that Mike Tyson was my personal boxing coach--people would be impressed.
BUT--if I knew I was going to have to box someone for real---I'd be begging for Cus DAmato to teach me.

Another thing that often gets overlooked is that the marketing claims used by scam-a-rei seldom revolve around their personal arse-kicking abilty...but instead focus on other areas--such as persoanl ranking and line of decent of the art.

Which brings up another problem---at least in the weapons sections of the koryu--and some Chinese systems--maybe others for all I know.

Students are often just as serious about the legitmacy of the teacher as they are about his abilty to kick butt.
If a teacher is claiming to teach say Shinkage Ryu, then his abiltity to "fight good" is more than beside the point.
They are interested in the history of the art and its direct links to it past as well.

I'm sure there are lots of opinions here......I just think that there are some other aspects to consider....IMO.

There are other things to be considered here......IMO.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#369459 - 11/22/07 02:40 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: JAMJTX]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
People who teach out of their homes or community centers are just as capable of being fakes as anyone else. Plus, people who train out of their homes are few and far between.

However, you are dead right about the belt ranking system. If the belt ranking system is so important, how is it some martial arts (e.g. boxing) can get along without it? The truth is belt rankings = promotion tests, which in turn = testing fees.

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#369460 - 11/22/07 03:57 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: JAMJTX]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Actually, fighting skills do not automatically equate to communication skills needed to teach, or even a deep technical understanding.
Who would you have rather taken boxing lessons from - Mike Tyson the champ or Cus D'Amato?





Buster Douglas.



I dont think it was just Cus D,Amato who trained Mike Tyson.
There were a whole heap of other people involved with their experiences.
Look at the difference in styles between Floyd Patterson
and Tyson.
I dont mean their physical or mental make up.

One of the main communication of boxing skills to Tyson was made by Tyson . He studied the art of boxing as well as being trained.


Jude

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#369461 - 11/22/07 04:08 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ronin1966]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Hello Matt:

If I can DO a particular technique, yet cannot explain anything, do you honestly contend I am ~skilled~?

Jeff



From my studies.
Not just anybody can kick or punch in a manner that will win a fight.
A person can be skilled with out having the ability to explain things.
Some do have both.

Jude

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#369462 - 11/22/07 10:12 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ronin1966]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ronin,
I explain things to students all the time, but they must first have developed the basic skill to understand the criticism or instruction. I've told some students repeatedly, the same information over and over again... and it doesn't "stick"... others, I teach one time, and they "do it".

There has to be understanding "between" teachers and students... and the proof of it is on the floor. Many instructional methods involve thousands of repetetive actions to build "muscle memory"... some involve hesitations or redirection... not all instructions are the same or with the same intent. How well the instructional process is going is shown "on the floor" during randori and free practice.

Sometimes, but not often, you simply have a student that "doesn't get it"... no matter how much instruction you give them, or how you craft the information. Martial arts are physical skills learned through a combination of mental exercise and physical exercise... teachers are "information in motion".

My back limits me from teaching skills I once taught, but I have students that can teach them, as they were taught. When I first started training, I tried to pay my sensei for lessons... his answer was simply to "pass it on" to others... which I have done, and have been doing for 45 years. How well it's worked out is "on the floor" with anybody I've trained... not confrontation, but "before you" in either randori, free practice, or instructing.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#369463 - 11/22/07 11:13 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: JAMJTX]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Actually, fighting skills do not automatically equate to communication skills needed to teach, or even a deep technical understanding.
Who would you have rather taken boxing lessons from - Mike Tyson the champ or Cus D'Amato?




Understood. The point that I was making is that it is unlikely to have a (technically proficient) "baffoon" that has NO technical understanding of what he does. Can others with less technical skill be better instructors? Certainly.

Cus D'amato may be better. But If Tyson is 'all you can get', I think you'll learn just fine.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#369464 - 12/03/07 12:43 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ronin1966]
GSD Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 14
What about "reputable" orgs. that send letters stating that you have been nominated into a "hall of fame" then add "send a check for X amount of money and you will be inducted into the hall of fame" ? Isn't that Fraud?
Also, what does that say for the martial arts instructor that goes for it? Isn't that Fraud?
I was always under the impression that there could only be ONE PERSON inducted into a "Hall of Fame" as "Instructor of the year".
I always thought that Martial Arts was about Honor , not Ego .
I see nothing wrong with making a living by teaching. But to take advantage of the publics "lack of knowledge" is sinful.

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#369465 - 12/03/07 12:51 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: GSD]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Name one. A 'reputable' one that sends an invite to a 'hall of fame' for money. I'm curious to hear if such exists.

Quote:

What about "reputable" orgs. that send letters stating that you have been nominated into a "hall of fame" then add "send a check for X amount of money and you will be inducted into the hall of fame" ?



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#369466 - 12/03/07 01:45 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: harlan]
matxtx Offline
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Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
I think its fairly easy to spot frauds and bad teaching in terms of what they are training you to do.
Drill it against non-complient people to see if it works often and see if there is any an example anywhere on the planet of what your being shown working in some kind of fight or assault,especialy against the best fighters.

If it cannot be proven in those ways then,for me,its a bit iffy.
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#369467 - 12/03/07 01:58 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: matxtx]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
matxtx

Good point, except that the "scam-a-rei" take all kinds of steps to prevent students from doing that.

There's fraud--an outright deception of one form or another.

Then you have people that have the bad luck to have bought into aothers con--they are teaching what they "think" are good martial arts--because it fits with their persoanl expereince....not exactly a fraud--but dangerous none-the-less.

I'd be careful about makeing comparisions about how it works with the "best fighters"---its been my experience that against a really good fighter--very little can be counted on to work.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#369468 - 12/03/07 03:56 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: harlan]
GSD Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 14
the year - 2000. "reputable org."- DSI. Hall of Fame - World Martial Arts Hall Of Fame.
Funny thing is none of the people I know that were "inducted" are listed as inductees on HOF web site. I've seen the book, patch and plaque they all received. Very nice book with pictures of them striking impressive poses. I believe there were about 50 people inducted as "Instructor of the year"
By the way, I still have the invitation and the rest of the paper work that was sent to me.

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#369469 - 12/03/07 04:06 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: GSD]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
What is 'DSI' an acronym for?

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#369470 - 12/03/07 05:49 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: harlan]
GSD Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 14
Dragon Society International

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#369471 - 12/04/07 12:33 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Raul Perez]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Lets see... hummmngh. Titles....

Anyone using the title "Grand *" (sic. anything) needs to offer tangible palpable <sp.?> proof of serious lifelong commitment. Physical is only a itty bitty part of that skill set...IMV. Far more is mandatory. Otherwise it is fraud.

"World Champion": titles requires identical proof.


Merely my views, I could surely be mistaken,

Jeff

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#369472 - 12/07/07 05:37 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts *DELETED* [Re: Ronin1966]
AllKrav Offline
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Registered: 12/07/07
Posts: 3
Post deleted by oldman

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#369473 - 12/07/07 05:42 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: AllKrav]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Quit spamming our forum.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#369474 - 12/07/07 08:40 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ronin1966]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I once found an association that crowned a "world champion". It had 7 dojos in the group and they all were within 100 miles of each other.

... it's a small world, eh?

I know of a kickboxing school that also boasts "world champion" fighters, but I've only known them to fight in U.S. cities. Obviously, the word "world" has more than one meaning...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#369475 - 12/29/07 02:26 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: wristtwister]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
I was once told a story of a "kickboxer" who started his own association. He was scheduled to fight one of his students for the "world championship", but at the last minute his student became ill and could not fight. Rather than refund all the money from the ticket sales a replacement fighter was found who ended up beating him and taking his world championship away.

I wish I could recall the name of this bozo. I do recall the name of the real kickboxer who about killed him. He went on to become a real champion later on. I just decided to leave his name out of the thread.

There are probably dozens of people (if not 100 or more) here in the U.S. alone who hold some sort of "world champion" title. It's one of the biggest scams around.

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#369476 - 01/08/08 03:35 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: JAMJTX]
AAMeeting Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 8
Any style, even the BS one can teach a person to fight the random guy on the street, the fake confidence they hae will be enough for them to deliver a good hit to the throat or the groin and bring the guy down

The sad thing is they are wasteing their time training with people who are not so great and are probably not getting the same workout they could be getting somewhere else or learning inferior and not original forms or kata if that is what they are there for, generaly not becomeing the best they can be

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#369477 - 01/08/08 04:33 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Raul Perez]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
can anyone actually prove there is fraud in martial arts?


If a place advertizes 'self-defense', and then you get your ass beaten during a mugging...does your martial arts gym have to give you a refund?

If a place claims to teach an unknown family style/kata, or long-kept secret, is it provable ?


If a gym is owned by someone who was legitimately and honestly duped by the previous generation...and now they are just honestly "teaching what they were taught" - can THEY be held liable for passing on crap which they honestly believe to be the real thing?


If a magician calls his skill 'Chi' and demonstrates while wearing a martial artsy-looking costume...is he liable for people thinking his martial arts training (as oppossed to his training performing the trick) is the cause of his 'powers' and therfore pay a fortune for his training DVD's which never show how those tricks are actually done?


how about a vein-pumped gym-owner with the: "more it hurts, the better it is" overly-macho bravado mentality - who teaches caveman-level techniques with a brute-force strategy towards fighting (which is nothing more than just getting together, lifting weights and brawling)? Wouldn't that be as fraudulent as a diaper-dojo run by teens teaching slap-tag while claiming it self-defense or martial arts?


I was wrong. There is no fraud in martial arts. There are only choices.

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#369478 - 01/08/08 06:37 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ed_Morris]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
If someone knowingly and willingly decieves people and takes money form them under false pretenses then they can likely be charged with fraud.

If a mcdojo operator takes money from students claiming to teach some ancient tradition and the student paid money to learn an ancient tradition and then learns the truth that it was just some crap that the guy made up, then he should be able to sue for a full refund plus interest on the money plus punuatuve damages.

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#369479 - 01/08/08 06:55 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: JAMJTX]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
has that ever happened? has anyone ever won a lawsuit against unsubstantiated MA claims or false advertising?

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#369480 - 01/08/08 11:58 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ed_Morris]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Not that I know of. I don't even know for a fact that anyone has sued for such. It's about time people start though.

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#369481 - 01/09/08 08:05 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: JAMJTX]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
just offering an alternate view. can fraud be claimed if it is never prosecuted? Sure, the blatent things like using a credit card number illegally, harrassment, contract fraud, etc...the kind of fraud and illegal activity sporatically found in any line of business.

but when we say 'fraud in the martial arts', it's usually meant either false advertizing, making dubious claims that are never backed-up or provable, unqualified presenters of the art, or ranking/org schemes to maximize profits at the expense of depth and quality.

and none of that is prosecutable (as far as I know). it's not illegal to make claims in the name of marketing. There are no qualifications in the arts to open a gym. and it's not illegal to try and maximize profits regardless of what it does to perceived quality.


a 21 year old with no MA experience other than schoolyard fights, could apply/get a commercial licence and rent a floor on main street. decorate it with 'Asian-looking stuff', and send a flyer out claiming 25th dan gold belt rank in 20 different styles from a ficticious white-bearded guy on a mountain in China. the syllabus could consist of made-up kata, haymakers, headbutts and push-kicks - having 50 levels of rank to black-belt in the average span of 2 years....each time you get a cheap laser-printed certificate with smudgable ink and a new rayon-belt for $100 per test.

someone could do that, and no one could prosecute the place for fraud if they kept within the law. it may close from lack of business, but my point is, it's legal.

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#369482 - 01/09/08 08:28 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Funny...I don't think of legal criteria when I apply 'fraud' to MA. I think of character issues. Is that your point? That 'fraudulent characters' can operate quite legally? Or am I just resorting to my old mantra...that it's the person's character that one should be investigating.

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#369483 - 01/10/08 01:05 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: harlan]
AAMeeting Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 8
The fraud to me happons when the teacher isn't honest about their study, fraud happons when a guy who did a two week cource or no training at all! Just watched some video and baught a certificate claims that they have done 10 years, blablabla and can blablabla grandmaster blablabla

They not only rip off the students but also other legitimate teachers, and I don't know why more teachers have not come together to find these fake masters of the art and expose them

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#369484 - 01/10/08 08:37 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
what I'm suggesting is that the legal definition of fraud is different from the perceived common use of the word.

It would seem that people use the word 'fraud' in cases where arts are advertised as something they are not...UNLESS the person making the claim is a nice guy. THEN it's not considered fraud if the person is liked.

also, another scenario that has come up before is lets say a student is an unknowing victim of fraud...they truely believe they learned a 5000 year old Korean battlefeild art called 'Wonder-do' or whatever in just the same condition, deadly, everything intact thru direct lineage, etc etc...they proudly display their smudged laser-printed certificates written in 1st grade level Japanese (even though it's a Korean art) - etc - they are oblivious....but they are a good person.

is that 'fraud'? someone with more than a 75 IQ looking at the credentials for 30 seconds would instictively say, that is complete and utter fabricated junk, and quick to label it fraud. ...but someone knowing the person to be a nice guy might be suceptable to overlook the preposterous claims and not categorize it as fraud at all, since they know it's not with malicious intent that the nice guy is passing on what was defrauded unto him while honestly thinking he/she is passing on something 'true' but in reality, a fabrication.

in short, it seems if they don't know any better and if they are nice...then it's not perceived as fraud.


thats why I say: There is no fraud. There are only choices.

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#369485 - 01/10/08 09:06 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Lying about your qualifications and taking people's money is ok? We can't sue for that?

What should we do about bogus resume's, dojo's, claims, etc....? Even if they are nice....
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#369486 - 01/10/08 10:00 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I'm not a lawyer, but have you ever heard of a martial arts school closing for false advertising?

'qualifications' are unregulated. you could literally print this out right now:
http://www.freeprintablecertificates.net/samples-free/you_did_it_certificate_stuffed_animal.png

lol...or if you are worried someone might question the legitimacy of that one, you could order a more official looking one:
http://www.downloadkarate.com/index.asp?Sec_ID=323


then write in your name and whatever rank you want, have your grandmother sign it, frame it. then go down to your local chamber of commerce, apply for a small business licence, then rent out some space on main street, hang your grandmother-endorsed 'qualification' on the wall - and start reeling kids in to do some karrotty!

as long as you don't break the written law, yes, you can lie about your credentals and take people's money....thats exactly what people do - and in pretty big numbers nowadays. look at how well the mail-order MA certificate mills are doing.

here are a couple random ones (but there are hundreds) which are apparently selling rank without regard to in-person evaluation or any kind of technical observation...

United States Martial Arts Association (USMA)
http://www.mararts.org/membership/meminfo.shtml

Brotherhood of MartialArtists
http://www.angelfire.com/ab/vitamin/new_membership.htm
(I wonder if one of the 'Member Benifits' is a free spell-checker? lol)


etc...none of those are breaking the law. they provide a membership and other services, and printing rank certificates is one of those services. Thats not fraud in the legal sense. whether you or I consider it fraud in the common sense is a matter of opinion and choice to join or not.


not fraud. choice.

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#369487 - 01/10/08 11:10 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Maybe we should all go on a quest to get as many membership and rank certificates as we can,lol!!
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#369488 - 01/11/08 10:44 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ed_Morris]
BodhiHuss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Greenville, SC, USA
Quote:

. . . write in your name and whatever rank you want, have your grandmother sign it, frame it.




Are you saying my granny is not a legitimate 10th degree great grandmaster? How dare you.
_________________________
James Huss, Suenaka Zenzan Dojo www.suenakazenzandojo.com

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#369489 - 01/17/08 09:56 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: BodhiHuss]
used2b Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 11
Loc: Kentucky
i know of this certain "grandmaster" who may have had his granny sign his cert

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#369490 - 01/18/08 08:14 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: used2b]
puffadder Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/07
Posts: 250
Loc: UK
As I understand it to get a MA teacher closed down or sued for teaching fraudulent martial arts would require a strict legal definition of what a martial art is. There is such a massive range of genuine arts being taught that any definition would have to be fairly vague and so the fraudulent teacher should have no problems bypassing it.
BTW many year ago a guy came to our school, stayed for 6 weeks then left. A few months later we heard he had set up his own class and was teaching students moves he had seen on Bruce Lee movies! Obviously guys like this won't be able to keep this up for long - nobody can be that gullible for more than a few weeks surely but also trying to sue him would be equally difficult. What he was teaching would be called martial arts to most non-martial-artists who don't know any better.

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#369491 - 01/20/08 03:14 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: puffadder]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772

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#369492 - 01/20/08 10:38 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772

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#369493 - 02/29/08 07:42 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ed_Morris]
michaelboik Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 60
Is it fraud when you have your own students sign a certificate promoting you to 5th degree? Is it fraud to say you " invented " an art but that name has been around for centuries. Is it fraud when you say you teach Tai Chi and call yourself Sensei?
_________________________
Mike www.drysdaletkd.com]

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#369494 - 02/29/08 10:09 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: michaelboik]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Michael:

It would not be fraud to be called "Sensei" IF you were a Japanese national, and taught some subject in your native language, whether that was Tai Chi Chuan or Canoe regardless of the arts initial origin.

"Sifu" would be the correct cultural title attached to a chinese martial art (TCC) but there is the question of cultural relativity to consider

Jeff

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#369495 - 03/01/08 08:33 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ronin1966]
michaelboik Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 60
Quote:

Hello Michael:

It would not be fraud to be called "Sensei" IF you were a Japanese national, and taught some subject in your native language, whether that was Tai Chi Chuan or Canoe regardless of the arts initial origin.

"Sifu" would be the correct cultural title attached to a chinese martial art (TCC) but there is the question of cultural relativity to consider

Jeff



Not a lick of japanese in this person.
_________________________
Mike www.drysdaletkd.com]

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#369496 - 05/03/08 03:39 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: michaelboik]
Bestlookerhere Offline
Member

Registered: 05/03/08
Posts: 27
All that's great but you should also ask if they've ever heard of Gene Lebell. If they haven't just leave.

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#369497 - 09/15/08 02:19 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Raul Perez]
imperial_crane Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Maryland, USA
Hi Raul,

I know this is long overdue but I just read your post introduction. Yes, you make great points about fraud. Unfortunately you may incorrect concerning dojo that don't spar could be suspect as a McDojo. We do not spar in my Shorin Ryu dojo and we are definitely far from a McDojo. Just thought you would like some other feedback. We practice Yakusoku kumite but not a free spar.

Thanks.

Paul
_________________________
Paul S.
Imperial Crane Martial Arts
Maryland, USA

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#369498 - 09/15/08 05:44 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: imperial_crane]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Could you explain yokusuku kumite?
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#369499 - 09/15/08 05:47 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: BrianS]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
im sure Paul will confirm and perhaps expand (maybee in the karate section), but essentially it translates to pre-arranged fighting , I add the word drills on to that.

It is your 1,2,3 step drills etc etc, and they tend to be fairly fixed in delivery of attack and defence.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#369500 - 11/19/08 10:17 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: shoshinkan]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
A good blog on the subject. The key point being...honesty/openness of individuals on their personal training.

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=423858376&blogID=448539573

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#369501 - 11/20/08 11:39 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: imperial_crane]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Quote:

Hi Raul,

I know this is long overdue but I just read your post introduction. Yes, you make great points about fraud. Unfortunately you may incorrect concerning dojo that don't spar could be suspect as a McDojo. We do not spar in my Shorin Ryu dojo and we are definitely far from a McDojo. Just thought you would like some other feedback. We practice Yakusoku kumite but not a free spar.

Thanks.

Paul




Paul,

Yakusoku Kumite is a platform to supply the practitioner with the most basic concepts of body positions and principles of fighting based on the art.

This SHOULD then lead up to light contact free sparring to test those principles and body positions in a more resistant environment. The final stage is full contact fighting to gain an understanding of how to utilize the techniques against a fully resistant opponent.

Without this progression the practitioner fails to understand or is not properly trained in true timing and the dynamics of what it feels like to get hit full force.

In my opinion without some sort of free sparring your training is not going to fully enrich you in the ability to effectively and efficiently defend yourself in a real life encounter.

Be ye McDojo or not a McDojo.
_________________________
"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

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#369502 - 11/30/08 10:15 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Raul Perez]
imperial_crane Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Maryland, USA
Hi Raul & Jim,

Sorry but I neglect to check this forum a lot. My apologies.

Jim was right with the pre-arranged sparring idea of Yakusoku kumite. We also do a semi-free sparring (kind of hard to explain) where each pair strikes back and forth at each other while working on combinations including blocks, strikes, trappings, etc. etc. but not all out.

Raul said, "In my opinion without some sort of free sparring your training is not going to fully enrich you in the ability to effectively and efficiently defend yourself in a real life encounter." - I counter with interesting statement on your part. I never knew that a real life self defense situation was like a sparring match. The last time I got in a real fight, which was about 8 years ago, there were no rules. I was hitting hard and with no pulled punches or were either of us wearing pads or groin protectors.

Raul, in all sincerity please enlighten me on how free sparring will help me to defend myself from a beating on the streets. I don't see a connection.

Thanks.

Paul
_________________________
Paul S.
Imperial Crane Martial Arts
Maryland, USA

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#369503 - 11/30/08 10:53 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: imperial_crane]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

The last time I got in a real fight, which was about 8 years ago, there were no rules.




I've said it before, and I'll say it again, there are rules in a streetfight. They are called laws. Break them and you go to jail.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#369504 - 12/04/08 11:19 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ames]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Paul,

Your question seems to bring me more confusion based on your above post. You state that you’ve never been in a fight that “looked” like a sparring session and that the last time you were in a fight it was hard with no pulled punches and no rules. However, your preferred METHOD of training is one that consists of the MOST rules and considered probably one of the MOST passive training one could perform aside from line drills. Some how I can not make the correlation as to why you choose not to incorporate some sort of free sparring into your training based on your prior experiences.

To address your post more specifically here is how I believe free sparring adds to aid in increasing your effectiveness in a self-defense situation:

1 – Full force blows – Allowing full force blows provides the student with a more realistic feeling of what it will feel like to deliver a full force blow to an opponent and what it feels like to be hit full force from an opponent. Something you should be psychologically prepared for and fully understand in order to avoid the mental cramping and log jam that occurs when adrenaline kicks in during a real life encounter.

2 – A Moving Target – Unlike Yakusoku Kumite and like a realistic encounter your opponent will be able to move AT WILL. Being exposed to this is essential and allows the student to begin strategy on how to corner and limit mobility of an opponent to deliver full force blows.

3 – Timing and Resistance – Yokusoku Kumite does provide some timing training however there is no resistance therefore the student will be unfamiliar as to how much strength and timing would really be required to produce the technique or principal in real time against an opponent bent on taking your face off and not allowing you to fully execute your desired technique. This is essential to understand how to time techniques against someone hell bent on hurting you throwing full force techniques. This is even more important when incorporating throwing techniques.

4 – Pressure Testing Techniques – Techniques and principles of combat work great against a passive opponent. However when introduced to a resisting opponent one will realize that what worked great in Yakusoku Kumite doesn’t seem to either work or does not gain the desired result as easily as it did. This is because now this technique or principle is being utilized against an opponent who is adrenalized, resistant, scrappy and mobile. Thus rearranging your timing, strength and strategy is required to achieve the desired result.

Does sparring have rules? Yes. The amount of rules is based on the instructor’s discretion and goals he/she wants to achieve for their students. Is it more beneficial once the students achieve an understanding of the yakusoku kumite principles, absolutely in my opinion.
_________________________
"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

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#369505 - 12/04/08 01:44 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ames]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Quote:

Quote:

The last time I got in a real fight, which was about 8 years ago, there were no rules.




I've said it before, and I'll say it again, there are rules in a streetfight. They are called laws. Break them and you go to jail.

--Chris





Tell that to the guys I know walking around with bit off nose and ears!!! A lot of times a street fight is anynomus with only two people to tell the story you and he. The laws that you have mentioned are only in affect if you know or can describe the suspect (which is kinda hard to do after a tramatic conflict or concussion). I go into a street fighting thinking all bets are off no rules, break my leg before I break yours. bring some a$$ to get some.

Protected by the Law, the Law of the Fist or survival. The Law is there to protect the civil and ones that will comply, whatabout the ones that don't. I think we call them criminals they do exist.
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#369506 - 12/04/08 06:51 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Neko456]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

Protected by the Law, the Law of the Fist or survival. The Law is there to protect the civil and ones that will comply, whatabout the ones that don't. I think we call them criminals they do exist




Yes, criminals, and those who attack you aren't concerned about the law. Unfortunately, if you defend yourself in a way that is (in the law's eyes) unjustified, then you will also be considered a criminal in court.

I'm not saying it's fair--it puts the defender at a disadvantage. But unfotunately, it's the way things are.
You have to do what's needed, obviously. But, imo, you also have to be aware of the potential for what you do to be held against you. Saving your ass is pointless if you overreact and maim someone and can't prove you had to--you'll end up alive, sure, but in a prison cell.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#369507 - 12/19/08 12:55 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ames]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
I hate when my posts dont get addressed!
_________________________
"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

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#369508 - 12/23/08 10:58 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Raul Perez]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
I'm not saying it's McDojo if there's no sparring - it's incomplete training, however. You have to be trained MENTALLY to
_________________________

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#369509 - 01/19/09 11:56 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ronin1966]
rcytrcy Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/19/09
Posts: 2
sort out your private life in private- this is a MA website, not a divorce court


Edited by Cord (01/20/09 05:38 PM)

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#369510 - 01/25/09 10:06 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: harlan]
GSD Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 14
It's been 2 years since I responded to you with the answer Dragon Society International as the org. that offered and did induct people into the world hall of fame for the cost of $300. 50 or so inducted in as "instructor of the year" The same for master instructor.

I can't believe all of these opinionated people on this site haven't said their piece.


When an org. creates a means for dishonest instructors to lie/mislead students, that is truly fraud!

The way I see the no response to my reply to you is that either you're friends with DSI or world martial arts hall of fame or you're one of the inductees. (I hope I am wrong about the latter of the three).

Students trust their teachers. They believe what their teacher says is the truth.
Every school has some kind of "creed". Honesty is always one of the most highlighted traits a martial artist is suppose to practice and display.

You people like to use the term McDojo. I am giving you the perfect example of what a McDojo, McSensei and McHall of famer is.
And nobody has anything to say!

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#369511 - 01/26/09 12:30 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: GSD]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
GSD,
Maybe no one responded to your comment because they were unclear about your position... I mean how would you suggest we reconcile the differences between your two quotes?

Quote:

I have no problems with the DSI or DKI orgs. . The info. I got from them helped improve my technique. They are nice people and always willing to help.




And...

Quote:

When an org. creates a means for dishonest instructors to lie/mislead students, that is truly fraud!

The way I see the no response to my reply to you is that either you're friends with DSI or world martial arts hall of fame or you're one of the inductees. (I hope I am wrong about the latter of the three).





It seems you are either kind of confused, or really confused , or three well, lets not even talk about the third option. Heres is another hint. People that come here and talk about practicing no touch knock outs, make 13 posts and leave for 2 years? Well what would you expect? What have YOU done in two years to protect the public regardng the matter.

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#369512 - 01/26/09 09:31 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: oldman]
GSD Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 14
This post had nothing to do with touchless kos or how nice DKI or DSI were at seminars. Of course they would be nice at seminars. If they weren't no one would ever return for the next one.

As confused as I may seem, my mind was clear enough not to buy an induction.

Touchless kos? I don't do or teach them. Those and any type of soft touch ko were intended for demonstration purposes only.

As far as what I've done in two years to protect the public is this.
I tell people that if they're interested in studying with an instructor and he advertises being a hall of famer. They would be smart to do a little research on him and the hall.

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#369513 - 01/26/09 10:37 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: GSD]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

The way I see the no response to my reply to you is that either you're friends with DSI or world martial arts hall of fame or you're one of the inductees.




No. As oldman said, the reason no one responded to you is because your posts on the matter are extremely unclear.

Quote:

You people like to use the term McDojo. I am giving you the perfect example of what a McDojo, McSensei and McHall of famer is.
And nobody has anything to say!




Perhaps you should say something then. Because, as I say, your posts are very unclear as the situation. Tell me, have you emailed those involved, or those that have bought a certificate? Have you done any investigation whatsoever into this matter YOURSELF?

If this matter is so important to you, why did it take YOU two years to respond??

Please don't come on this board and toss out accusations directed at the members here. Make a clear, well argued post or start a new thread on the topic, and people will respond.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#369514 - 02/12/09 04:46 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: harlan]
cliv3ne Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/11/09
Posts: 3
Quote:

Commendable post, and I hope it gets 'stickied' for future reference.

I'd just like to reiterate JAMJTX's position that it's good advice for commercial dojos, with the reminder that not every newbie is looking for a discipline for it's 'martial worth'. Face it...many people that are very happy with their arts are not concerned with the martial side/potential.

As for scratching a bit deeper, to find non-commercial training, I think it's a bit trickier to go about verifying the 'credentials'. I wouldn't suggest the 20 questions approach if applying to koryu, or private dojos. Research is good, and an openness to answering questions is always preferable...but the 'contract' is different...and different rules apply.




thanks dude. . .



Edited by Raul Perez (02/12/09 08:34 AM)

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#369515 - 03/09/09 03:10 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ronin1966]
themmazone Offline
Stranger

Registered: 03/09/09
Posts: 1
Loc: Kansas, US
Great Post and excellent workout on articles..

Keep it up!

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#369516 - 03/10/09 01:19 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: themmazone]
imperial_crane Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Maryland, USA
Hi All,

As I said before I don't check this forum much, my fault so I'll try to reply more often.

I thought Raul was referring to me when I did not respond to his last post back in early December. His points on how sparring prepares you for the street are somewhat understandable but I do not generally agree with most of
them.
_________________________
Paul S.
Imperial Crane Martial Arts
Maryland, USA

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#369517 - 04/06/09 11:05 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: imperial_crane]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Paul,

What exactly dont you agree and why?

Sorry I've been away for a bit myself.
_________________________
"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

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#369518 - 04/16/09 01:04 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Raul Perez]
imperial_crane Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Maryland, USA
Hi Raul,

So am I mistaken to think that you train and spar full force with no pads and anything goes - like a real street fight? At my dojo our Yakusoku kumite is not just a patty cake back and forth motion. We do specific drills yes, but we also hit hard and take hard hits to all parts of our body without pads. This helps with conditioning. The limited area is to the face and head due to insurance reasons. That is a reason we don't have free sparring or full contact. My students train hard and do get hit.

You also said, "This SHOULD then lead up to light contact free sparring to test those principles and body positions in a more resistant environment. The final stage is full contact fighting to gain an understanding of how to utilize the techniques against a fully resistant opponent."

I would like to come to your dojo someday to see this full contact free sparring. You either must not have insurance or you must have very disciplined, controlled students for serious injury not to occur. I think I am assuming that you and your students go all out and act like a street fight. Or am I wrong?

You also said, "Without this progression the practitioner fails to understand or is not properly trained in true timing and the dynamics of what it feels like to get hit full force." True timing can be learned through what you suggest and also what I teach. You do not know exactly what happens at our dojo. But I think that a surprise attack or multiple attack or a different fight environment can disable someone's true timing very easily.

How many of us train outside, in the dark, on uneven ground, in an enclosed space etc. and not just in a big well lighted open school?

Do most fights happen in your dojo? I doubt it.

Sorry if I rambled a bit.
_________________________
Paul S.
Imperial Crane Martial Arts
Maryland, USA

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#369519 - 04/16/09 03:19 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: imperial_crane]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
They use Bogu gear, from my limited experience sparring in armor it's pretty safe. I own a couple sets of Ryute bogu gear, you can really pound on someone in it.

I personally don't see most Bogu kumite i've seen (or koshiki or whatever variants of armored sparring) as all-encompassing by any means, the weight and presence of the armor affect the way you fight dramatically, and it most certainly affects the arsenal available to you.

Due to the presence of the armor it always seems like certain techniques and range end up taking precedence.

As a quick example when I did koshiki sparring many years ago, and the little i've done with my Bogu gear, I found that techniques like the side kick or back kick became used very, very frequently due to the range people tend to hang at and the fact that the armor can just absorb alot of heavy blows.

In fact i'd say on the whole a well timed sidekick was one of the best techniques for me in that environment. However, I don't think i'd ever use that kind of kick on "t3h str33t" in a real altercation...so draw your own conclusions on that.

So to me, with all due respect to Raul, Bogu seems to me to be a specialized sparring where the emphasis is on contact.

That said there's no denying that the adrenaline and contact would have some definite benefit in training for "t3h str33t"...I think the debate would be on how much, and in what way.

As far as insurance, like any kind of sparring I would think that a large part of how safe it is is determined by the people training, not just the format.

This is where I differ from a lot of the opinion in the original post:

Sparring is a tool, not and ends, and it isn't a reflection of reality, it's a tool for training which can bring a measure of realism.

So while I realize people feel strongly about this, I don't agree with calling a place a McDojo or a fraud for not practicing full contact sparring.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/16/09 03:35 PM)

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#369520 - 04/17/09 12:43 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Zach_Zinn]
imperial_crane Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Maryland, USA
Thanks Zach. I couldn't have said it better myself... Another example is military drills. Do they use live rounds when practicing scenarios?

Doubt it.
_________________________
Paul S.
Imperial Crane Martial Arts
Maryland, USA

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#369521 - 04/21/09 03:01 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: imperial_crane]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Zach... Paul... I'm not blowing you guys off been real busy with work, training, and studying. I will address your posts in another thread as not to derail this one in a day or two.
_________________________
"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

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#424659 - 02/01/10 04:51 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Raul Perez]
paul40 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 155
I dont think there is any way to steroeotype any school by what there teaching unless its outright b.s.

IMHO there are so many variations of martial arts schools.

1) real martial arts,no sport at all including tournaments.

2) traditional sport martial arts,sport is aloud,but as close to real as it gets.

3) high quality sport karate schools,can be creative,self defence is only minimal,point sparring if you want to.excellent student prep including respect,disipline,leadership.confidence.
contact, doesnt distinguish a good school form a mjdojo.there is alot more to be considered.

4)average to low quality sport program,created style,instructor lives in his own box,self ranked.there to make money.students are lightly disiplined,techniques heavily flawed,this does not clasify as a fraud,he isnt attempting to sell you something worthless,you do learn something,you do earn rank,very little quality, its like a cheap hamburger from the gas station ,it may be garbage but,its still food.

5)frauds,george dillman.guys who tell you if you join my school you will be able to fight off any attacker.etc..this can be an ego wanking high dan traditional martial artist as well as "ole no touch himself"

Definition
intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right b : an act of deceiving or misrepresenting : trick


Martial arts falls into many catagories,if the school teaches you how to punch and kick,even if its not up to standards,its not being fraudelent.
Now if the guy who creates his own style and advertises as being a traditional school.then maybe you have a fraudulent claim.if he is using tradtional techniques to blend into his creation,grey area.
naska simply states for traitional kata divsions,you must capture the essence and moves of traitional martial arts.
Now you have to condsider whats tradtional and whats not.another grey area.

Consequently if the school says if you pay me,ill teach you how to knock someone out without touching them, thats fraud.

Contracts are not fraudulent unless someone breaks it.Almost every school ive seen offers a discounted contract price or a non contract price,this is just good business.if you dont want to be tied in, dont sign the contract and pay the extra 10 bucks a month.

My daughter competes on the naska circuit,this is a show.Its also one the cleanest sports in the world.with high caliber respectful athletes.she is a 2nd degree blackbelt in sport karate but has had very little self defence training.she is a kata performer.

Hollywood is all make believe too but,there are very few of us who dont have tv,s

There is huge gap between real and fraudulent.



Edited by paul40 (02/01/10 04:57 AM)
_________________________
Just so you know, I am a liar. only fair to tell you before you waste time reading my words.

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#426696 - 04/28/10 08:55 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ronin1966]
Commander_Nitro Offline
Member

Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 30
Hi, thanks for the post. I'm new to this forum and I'm just learning my way around.

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#428548 - 07/23/10 07:39 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Commander_Nitro]
BigWiggly Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 50
Loc: Ohio
I think the best way to determine if you have a good teacher or school is to listen to the sifu or sensei or master... whatever.

if they try to feed you the old "you will be able to fly like crouching tiger hidden dragon"... it's bull. I was skeptical about a little kung fu school with only a handfull of students of any level, but I did my research and found my sifu to have a similar mindset as myself. military background (an impressive one at that), lineage, and a no bull attitude. I'd bet that most people who get ripped off simply don't do their research. It's not hard and you might find yourself face to face with a world renowned master laugh

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#429188 - 08/17/10 04:01 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ronin1966]
Brusashi Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/12/10
Posts: 23
Loc: Florida
Watch out if a school offers anything like a special membership. I "trained" at a McDojo before and they offered one.
_________________________
"I come to you with only Karate - empty hands, I have no weapons; but should I be forced to defend myself, my principles, or my honor; should it be a matter of life or death, of right or wrong, then here are my weapons – Karate, my empty hands"

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#429217 - 08/19/10 11:08 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: paul40]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello paul40:

An important thread to be certain!!!!

So how do we as "observers" (in this medium <wg>), how do we contribute something of value that helps distinguish the idiotic from the un-honed gems of real value???

Lets try this dance <hopeful shrug>...


Shall we start with the "discipline" idea???? Or perhaps exploring dignity (as a function of good training) would be simpler crazy ????

Jeff

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#429218 - 08/19/10 11:29 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: BigWiggly]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello BigWiggly:

Have not had the pleasure before, a pleasure to meet you! <small bow of friendly greeting>

You raise several issues. Lets start with ones assorted title(s). Perhaps this is my cultural bias, but if you are not of/from another culture, not a "national" of that specific culture, why on earth should we use THEIR terminology(ies) beyond literal identification if, if we absolutely must???

There are many who butcher irreparably whatever language they are pretending to use, and do so in order to create and maintain an entirely artificial higher "status". Idiotic foolishness. "... great you can speak Tibetian, so what, you are still a massive jerk..."

What of others who need their titles? My name is Jeff. If you'd like to call me something (for class), I'm uncomfortable with it but if done low key enough, quietly, Ill try and ignore it.

But what kind of massive flatulence is it when the titles are screamed at the top of ones lungs, as a matter of so called culture. Militancy of a very specific (minor) time frame in history, is that atmosphere meaningful for good training?

Jeff

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#431055 - 12/06/10 05:28 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Raul Perez]
marieisabelle23 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/10
Posts: 1
what a nice draft...

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#431619 - 02/24/11 02:49 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: marieisabelle23]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
There's a lot of fraud in taekwondo, and both WTF and ITF are equally guilty. But I have learned quite a bit from the good schools that were in both WTF and the various ITF organizations. All good and bad schools insist on learning the signature TKD kicks, which are high-flying and fanciful, but this does not mean the schools are bad - quite the contrary.

One other thing - many TKD masters or grandmasters or whatever will also claim to be real dojos and even condemn the McDojo phenomenon, but, in truth, they're the Mcdojo operators. Take that observation of human nature for what that's worth.

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#431626 - 02/24/11 11:54 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello TaekwonDoFan:

If a TKD person with whatever (sic. silly) title claim to be teaching as "real dojos" they better be teaching a japanese art instead. Dojo is not the korean term wink

Different cultural atmospheres... yes?
Jeff


Edited by Ronin1966 (02/24/11 12:13 PM)

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#431893 - 04/04/11 12:15 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ronin1966]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
I think people join orgs for which they pay, therefore later to display, is an attempt to get them more credibility when they think what they have so far is not adequate.

I have never had a problem with teaching and my credentials. I never display anymore than what I am. That said, I do not go forth and display my identity on open forum for the main reason of political strife within the martial art systems I was among.

Furthermore, there are other schools that I know of, and their instructors, and despite not training with these, I can fully recommend to anyone who is more interested in anything apart from what I do. (They in reversal)

To the OP, Raul;

This subject became an issue during the 70's when a senator (whom was a student of Jhoon Rhee) tried to use his influence in Congress to find or establish a regulation for martial arts.

New Jersey:
ftp://www.njleg.state.nj.us/19981999/A2500/2216_I1.HTM

Oregon:
http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/legislativ...t/sgg04221.html

http://www.eastimorlawjournal.org/ARTICLES/2009/Regulation_of_Martial_Arts_in_East_Timor.html

http://martialartsbusinessdaily.com/424/texas-martial-arts-day-care/

However, the main attack for regulation nowadays is on MMA because of the aggressive display.

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#436008 - 09/13/13 01:20 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Raul Perez]
SoulJah22 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/13/13
Posts: 9
I agree that it is very difficult to asses every aspect of a school and validate it. The commercial styles such as TKD and Karate have made it much easier to research their history and understand the lineage that the art has been passed through. Home schools do not always have these resources available to the students, and therefore trust plays a major role.
One thing i do believe whole heartedly is that spirit does not lie. Use your intuition and follow it. Look at the students past and present, to decide if the art has actual application. If it has little application then it is a good bet that the "master" is pulling your leg. If the students are well trained, they will disciplined and refined in there actions martial or not. You should see intuition being employed.
I believe that a legitimate school will speak for itself. Mcdojos have an artificial feel to them. Credentials can be faked and rankings can be bought. Look toward the spiritual teachings of the school. Martial arts is a path of self realization and spiritual awakening.

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#436153 - 01/27/14 05:50 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Raul Perez]
ALPHABET_SOUP Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/17/14
Posts: 12
Loc: Perth Australia
Originally Posted By: Raul Perez


A system that does not engage in some sort of full contact environment is also suspect of being a “McDojo”. Any system of martial worth engages in some sort of resistant training or sparring. Schools that often lack credibility do not engage in such activities. There are many reasons why they do not. The usual answer is that their techniques are too “deadly” for sparring. The reality is that if full resisting partners were introduced most of the techniques these schools taught would be ineffective in subduing, injuring or even killing the assailant. Therefore to protect themselves from this reality the full resisting training is eliminated.

However, if you are looking for a more realistic or self defense oriented school a continuous full contact sparring that allows contact to most of the body (lower and upper extremities) is more suited toward your needs.

There are currently internet organizations that dedicate their time to researching and exposing schools in which conduct themselves in a less than ethical manner. Most of these organizations conduct themselves in what is called “forums” whereby martial artists from various styles and ranks discuss elements that are commonly found in more legitimate organizations and systems. During these online discussions many schools suspected of being fraudulent or adhering to a “McDojo” practice are uncovered and/or exposed. These forums are usually discovered during your internet research if the school has had a turbulent history in the views of different organizations.


While I certainly agree to much of what you said here, I will touch on a couple of points. First of all there is no such thing as a fully resisting opponent in training as they are not actively trying to cripple you, because it is training not a street fight. Secondly fully resisting is not always the best way to go, there are somethings that if you resist too much you will wind up getting seriously injured because the person applying it will have to apply full force (a wristlock for example).

Thirdly I often hear this "too deadly for sparring/competition" line from people who do combat sports when describing arts that do not compete and only train for self defence yet many techniques are removed from full contact (no such thing as that either) competitions for "the safety of the competitors". If these techniques are not too dangerous for competition then why take them out? Striking to the throat, neck or groin or breaking the knee with a low side kick is certainly not safe. Fourthly full contact sparring is not the be all and end all of training. For a start only certain targets are allowed and often these are parts of the body that can be conditioned to absorb blows, such as the stomach. You then add gloves, body armor and head gear and it instills a false sense of security because you think you know what its like to get hit. Exactly how do you prepare yourself to be hit in the throat, neck, groin, eyes, solar plexus, knee etc, you can't. Full contact sparring is not a Litmus test it is just a method of training. Full contact sparring is not the only way to add realism and in many ways it takes some of the realism away.

Fifthly the height of the techniques and the presence of flying and spinning kicks have no bearing on the credibility of the school or art unless every kick is aimed at people who are 7 feet tall. MMA is often see as the only legit art by the unenlightened and they do all 3 of those.

Sixthly internet forums can be a very unreliable way to gain information on the credibility of an art. You get people with no serious martial arts training offering their uninformed opinions, MMA fanboys who think that any art that does not appear in the UFC is a useless joke just because they saw some mid level TMA guy loose one fight to a grappler (never mind all the fights they won), people from Mc'Dojos/Mc'Dojangs go on forums too, people who spent 5 minutes watching a class and decided the whole art was crap because they didn't have the slightest clue what they were looking at, not every art is discussed on forums or makes videos, sour grapes from disgruntled former students, students who sucked at the first martial art they tried who didn't put in much effort when they were there and got beaten up saying the art was useless, instructors buttering up their own styles and people with bias towards a certain martial arts type etc.

Bottom line is to find a legitimate school do a little research to see if it is something you might like to do and go check out a class. If the instructor seems to know what he is doing and you think you can learn what you need to from them then give it a go. Any school worth a damn will offer one or two free lessons. Avoid contracts because it may take a while for you to discover if the art is any good or not or if you want to train to train there for a long time.

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#436155 - 01/28/14 06:56 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: ALPHABET_SOUP]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: ALPHABET_SOUP
Originally Posted By: Raul Perez


A system that does not engage in some sort of full contact environment is also suspect of being a “McDojo”. Any system of martial worth engages in some sort of resistant training or sparring. Schools that often lack credibility do not engage in such activities. There are many reasons why they do not. The usual answer is that their techniques are too “deadly” for sparring. The reality is that if full resisting partners were introduced most of the techniques these schools taught would be ineffective in subduing, injuring or even killing the assailant. Therefore to protect themselves from this reality the full resisting training is eliminated.

However, if you are looking for a more realistic or self defense oriented school a continuous full contact sparring that allows contact to most of the body (lower and upper extremities) is more suited toward your needs.

There are currently internet organizations that dedicate their time to researching and exposing schools in which conduct themselves in a less than ethical manner. Most of these organizations conduct themselves in what is called “forums” whereby martial artists from various styles and ranks discuss elements that are commonly found in more legitimate organizations and systems. During these online discussions many schools suspected of being fraudulent or adhering to a “McDojo” practice are uncovered and/or exposed. These forums are usually discovered during your internet research if the school has had a turbulent history in the views of different organizations.


While I certainly agree to much of what you said here, I will touch on a couple of points. First of all there is no such thing as a fully resisting opponent in training as they are not actively trying to cripple you, because it is training not a street fight. Secondly fully resisting is not always the best way to go, there are somethings that if you resist too much you will wind up getting seriously injured because the person applying it will have to apply full force (a wristlock for example).

Thirdly I often hear this "too deadly for sparring/competition" line from people who do combat sports when describing arts that do not compete and only train for self defence yet many techniques are removed from full contact (no such thing as that either) competitions for "the safety of the competitors". If these techniques are not too dangerous for competition then why take them out? Striking to the throat, neck or groin or breaking the knee with a low side kick is certainly not safe. Fourthly full contact sparring is not the be all and end all of training. For a start only certain targets are allowed and often these are parts of the body that can be conditioned to absorb blows, such as the stomach. You then add gloves, body armor and head gear and it instills a false sense of security because you think you know what its like to get hit. Exactly how do you prepare yourself to be hit in the throat, neck, groin, eyes, solar plexus, knee etc, you can't. Full contact sparring is not a Litmus test it is just a method of training. Full contact sparring is not the only way to add realism and in many ways it takes some of the realism away.

Fifthly the height of the techniques and the presence of flying and spinning kicks have no bearing on the credibility of the school or art unless every kick is aimed at people who are 7 feet tall. MMA is often see as the only legit art by the unenlightened and they do all 3 of those.

Sixthly internet forums can be a very unreliable way to gain information on the credibility of an art. You get people with no serious martial arts training offering their uninformed opinions, MMA fanboys who think that any art that does not appear in the UFC is a useless joke just because they saw some mid level TMA guy loose one fight to a grappler (never mind all the fights they won), people from Mc'Dojos/Mc'Dojangs go on forums too, people who spent 5 minutes watching a class and decided the whole art was crap because they didn't have the slightest clue what they were looking at, not every art is discussed on forums or makes videos, sour grapes from disgruntled former students, students who sucked at the first martial art they tried who didn't put in much effort when they were there and got beaten up saying the art was useless, instructors buttering up their own styles and people with bias towards a certain martial arts type etc.

Bottom line is to find a legitimate school do a little research to see if it is something you might like to do and go check out a class. If the instructor seems to know what he is doing and you think you can learn what you need to from them then give it a go. Any school worth a damn will offer one or two free lessons. Avoid contracts because it may take a while for you to discover if the art is any good or not or if you want to train to train there for a long time.



You come from the home of the Helicopter Kancho - Founder of GoKan Ryu (Kan Go Roo)

Some valid points, no one is saying Full Contact is a be all and end all for "realistic" sparring etc but this is (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhcuYjLiZos) . May I ask what School and experience you are coming from that validates you points (note this is just to ascertain how your conclusions to your excellent post is configured)?
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#436158 - 01/29/14 12:52 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Dobbersky]
ALPHABET_SOUP Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/17/14
Posts: 12
Loc: Perth Australia
Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
You come from the home of the Helicopter Kancho - Founder of GoKan Ryu (Kan Go Roo)


We may live in the same country but we have nothing in common.

Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
Some valid points, no one is saying Full Contact is a be all and end all for "realistic" sparring etc but this is (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhcuYjLiZos) .


I have never heard of Kudo before but Kudos to you for showing it smile.

My question is, realistic for what? Self defence, sport? If you look closely you will find that the striking in the video is about 95% attack, there is very little in the way of defence. Whether or not that is just in the highlights or the whole art is that way is another question that would require some research. Nice spinning heel kick at 1:50.

Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
May I ask what School and experience you are coming from that validates you points (note this is just to ascertain how your conclusions to your excellent post is configured)?


I come from Rhee TKD, which teaches the original self defence version of TKD, before any of the sporting elements were added. I have nearly 27 years of experience. We don't do a lot of videos but here are some that are on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFmfCGX0W7w

Not our usual type of demonstration:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KWEiezinXk

Some rare contact sparring one of our instructors did for a charity event.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH-RJwX8bn8

A little more information on the last video:

http://www.spec.com.au/blog/2011/10/10/leech-goes-100-rounds-for-charity/


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#436159 - 01/29/14 04:55 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: ALPHABET_SOUP]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: ALPHABET_SOUP
Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
You come from the home of the Helicopter Kancho - Founder of GoKan Ryu (Kan Go Roo)


We may live in the same country but we have nothing in common.

Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
Some valid points, no one is saying Full Contact is a be all and end all for "realistic" sparring etc but this is (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhcuYjLiZos) .


I have never heard of Kudo before but Kudos to you for showing it smile.

My question is, realistic for what? Self defence, sport? If you look closely you will find that the striking in the video is about 95% attack, there is very little in the way of defence. Whether or not that is just in the highlights or the whole art is that way is another question that would require some research. Nice spinning heel kick at 1:50.

Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
May I ask what School and experience you are coming from that validates you points (note this is just to ascertain how your conclusions to your excellent post is configured)?


I come from Rhee TKD, which teaches the original self defence version of TKD, before any of the sporting elements were added. I have nearly 27 years of experience. We don't do a lot of videos but here are some that are on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFmfCGX0W7w

Not our usual type of demonstration:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KWEiezinXk

Some rare contact sparring one of our instructors did for a charity event.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH-RJwX8bn8

A little more information on the last video:

http://www.spec.com.au/blog/2011/10/10/leech-goes-100-rounds-for-charity/



Hi Can you look at the post on the Sine Wave and respond as you're a TKD'ist?

Also there's not many Original TKD schools about they tend to be dare I say "belt factories" or focused on getting people into the Olympics etc. for me TKD WAS one of the best arts outthere. Is your style from WTF or ITF thanks
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#436160 - 01/29/14 08:46 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Dobbersky]
ALPHABET_SOUP Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/17/14
Posts: 12
Loc: Perth Australia
Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
Hi Can you look at the post on the Sine Wave and respond as you're a TKD'ist?


As I am a TKD'ist and I have and I have a physics background I will add my 2 cents worth over there.

Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
Also there's not many Original TKD schools about they tend to be dare I say "belt factories" or focused on getting people into the Olympics etc. for me TKD WAS one of the best arts outthere. Is your style from WTF or ITF thanks


Well if there is one thing you could say about us it is that we are not it is a belt factory. In order to get higher than 1st Dan in our art you need to be an instructor and an adult. We do have a junior black belt rank but there is no set age (we have some who have their own children) and to go from JBB to 1st Dan you have to undergo the same grading as everyone else. 2nd Dans usually have about 15 years or more experience before they get their 2nd Dans. Our Regional Master Instructors in my area have between 30 and 35 years in the art.

We have never been part of the WTF (we have about as much in common with Olympic style sparring as we have with Tai Chi). We used to be part of the ITF in the early days but seceded, probably due to General Choi wanting to add sporting elements and Master Rhee wanting the art to remain a martial art of self defence like it was originally. We teach the Chang Hon patterns. Here's a link:

http://rheetkd.com/

There are a few TKD schools in Australia that teach the non-competitive version but nearly all of those were founded by former instructors from our organization.

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