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#369517 - 04/06/09 11:05 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: imperial_crane]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2807
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA

What exactly dont you agree and why?

Sorry I've been away for a bit myself.
"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

#369518 - 04/16/09 01:04 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Raul Perez]
imperial_crane Offline

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Maryland, USA
Hi Raul,

So am I mistaken to think that you train and spar full force with no pads and anything goes - like a real street fight? At my dojo our Yakusoku kumite is not just a patty cake back and forth motion. We do specific drills yes, but we also hit hard and take hard hits to all parts of our body without pads. This helps with conditioning. The limited area is to the face and head due to insurance reasons. That is a reason we don't have free sparring or full contact. My students train hard and do get hit.

You also said, "This SHOULD then lead up to light contact free sparring to test those principles and body positions in a more resistant environment. The final stage is full contact fighting to gain an understanding of how to utilize the techniques against a fully resistant opponent."

I would like to come to your dojo someday to see this full contact free sparring. You either must not have insurance or you must have very disciplined, controlled students for serious injury not to occur. I think I am assuming that you and your students go all out and act like a street fight. Or am I wrong?

You also said, "Without this progression the practitioner fails to understand or is not properly trained in true timing and the dynamics of what it feels like to get hit full force." True timing can be learned through what you suggest and also what I teach. You do not know exactly what happens at our dojo. But I think that a surprise attack or multiple attack or a different fight environment can disable someone's true timing very easily.

How many of us train outside, in the dark, on uneven ground, in an enclosed space etc. and not just in a big well lighted open school?

Do most fights happen in your dojo? I doubt it.

Sorry if I rambled a bit.
Paul S.
Imperial Crane Martial Arts
Maryland, USA

#369519 - 04/16/09 03:19 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: imperial_crane]
Zach_Zinn Offline

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
They use Bogu gear, from my limited experience sparring in armor it's pretty safe. I own a couple sets of Ryute bogu gear, you can really pound on someone in it.

I personally don't see most Bogu kumite i've seen (or koshiki or whatever variants of armored sparring) as all-encompassing by any means, the weight and presence of the armor affect the way you fight dramatically, and it most certainly affects the arsenal available to you.

Due to the presence of the armor it always seems like certain techniques and range end up taking precedence.

As a quick example when I did koshiki sparring many years ago, and the little i've done with my Bogu gear, I found that techniques like the side kick or back kick became used very, very frequently due to the range people tend to hang at and the fact that the armor can just absorb alot of heavy blows.

In fact i'd say on the whole a well timed sidekick was one of the best techniques for me in that environment. However, I don't think i'd ever use that kind of kick on "t3h str33t" in a real draw your own conclusions on that.

So to me, with all due respect to Raul, Bogu seems to me to be a specialized sparring where the emphasis is on contact.

That said there's no denying that the adrenaline and contact would have some definite benefit in training for "t3h str33t"...I think the debate would be on how much, and in what way.

As far as insurance, like any kind of sparring I would think that a large part of how safe it is is determined by the people training, not just the format.

This is where I differ from a lot of the opinion in the original post:

Sparring is a tool, not and ends, and it isn't a reflection of reality, it's a tool for training which can bring a measure of realism.

So while I realize people feel strongly about this, I don't agree with calling a place a McDojo or a fraud for not practicing full contact sparring.

Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/16/09 03:35 PM)

#369520 - 04/17/09 12:43 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Zach_Zinn]
imperial_crane Offline

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Maryland, USA
Thanks Zach. I couldn't have said it better myself... Another example is military drills. Do they use live rounds when practicing scenarios?

Doubt it.
Paul S.
Imperial Crane Martial Arts
Maryland, USA

#369521 - 04/21/09 03:01 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: imperial_crane]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2807
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Zach... Paul... I'm not blowing you guys off been real busy with work, training, and studying. I will address your posts in another thread as not to derail this one in a day or two.
"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

#424659 - 02/01/10 04:51 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Raul Perez]
paul40 Offline

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 155
I dont think there is any way to steroeotype any school by what there teaching unless its outright b.s.

IMHO there are so many variations of martial arts schools.

1) real martial arts,no sport at all including tournaments.

2) traditional sport martial arts,sport is aloud,but as close to real as it gets.

3) high quality sport karate schools,can be creative,self defence is only minimal,point sparring if you want to.excellent student prep including respect,disipline,leadership.confidence.
contact, doesnt distinguish a good school form a mjdojo.there is alot more to be considered.

4)average to low quality sport program,created style,instructor lives in his own box,self ranked.there to make money.students are lightly disiplined,techniques heavily flawed,this does not clasify as a fraud,he isnt attempting to sell you something worthless,you do learn something,you do earn rank,very little quality, its like a cheap hamburger from the gas station ,it may be garbage but,its still food.

5)frauds,george dillman.guys who tell you if you join my school you will be able to fight off any attacker.etc..this can be an ego wanking high dan traditional martial artist as well as "ole no touch himself"

intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right b : an act of deceiving or misrepresenting : trick

Martial arts falls into many catagories,if the school teaches you how to punch and kick,even if its not up to standards,its not being fraudelent.
Now if the guy who creates his own style and advertises as being a traditional school.then maybe you have a fraudulent claim.if he is using tradtional techniques to blend into his creation,grey area.
naska simply states for traitional kata divsions,you must capture the essence and moves of traitional martial arts.
Now you have to condsider whats tradtional and whats not.another grey area.

Consequently if the school says if you pay me,ill teach you how to knock someone out without touching them, thats fraud.

Contracts are not fraudulent unless someone breaks it.Almost every school ive seen offers a discounted contract price or a non contract price,this is just good business.if you dont want to be tied in, dont sign the contract and pay the extra 10 bucks a month.

My daughter competes on the naska circuit,this is a show.Its also one the cleanest sports in the world.with high caliber respectful athletes.she is a 2nd degree blackbelt in sport karate but has had very little self defence training.she is a kata performer.

Hollywood is all make believe too but,there are very few of us who dont have tv,s

There is huge gap between real and fraudulent.

Edited by paul40 (02/01/10 04:57 AM)
Just so you know, I am a liar. only fair to tell you before you waste time reading my words.

#426696 - 04/28/10 08:55 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ronin1966]
Commander_Nitro Offline

Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 30
Hi, thanks for the post. I'm new to this forum and I'm just learning my way around.

#428548 - 07/23/10 07:39 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Commander_Nitro]
BigWiggly Offline

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 50
Loc: Ohio
I think the best way to determine if you have a good teacher or school is to listen to the sifu or sensei or master... whatever.

if they try to feed you the old "you will be able to fly like crouching tiger hidden dragon"... it's bull. I was skeptical about a little kung fu school with only a handfull of students of any level, but I did my research and found my sifu to have a similar mindset as myself. military background (an impressive one at that), lineage, and a no bull attitude. I'd bet that most people who get ripped off simply don't do their research. It's not hard and you might find yourself face to face with a world renowned master laugh

#429188 - 08/17/10 04:01 PM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: Ronin1966]
Brusashi Offline

Registered: 08/12/10
Posts: 23
Loc: Florida
Watch out if a school offers anything like a special membership. I "trained" at a McDojo before and they offered one.
"I come to you with only Karate - empty hands, I have no weapons; but should I be forced to defend myself, my principles, or my honor; should it be a matter of life or death, of right or wrong, then here are my weapons Karate, my empty hands"

#429217 - 08/19/10 11:08 AM Re: Fraud and the Martial Arts [Re: paul40]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3120
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello paul40:

An important thread to be certain!!!!

So how do we as "observers" (in this medium <wg>), how do we contribute something of value that helps distinguish the idiotic from the un-honed gems of real value???

Lets try this dance <hopeful shrug>...

Shall we start with the "discipline" idea???? Or perhaps exploring dignity (as a function of good training) would be simpler crazy ????

Blowing out another's candle does not make yours any brighter

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