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#369318 - 08/02/08 04:13 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: JKogas]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
Quote:

What is different about his approach that gears it more toward sport? What specific strategy or tactic does he use that gives you that impression?



well if your in a ring/controlled arena you have the liberty to run & dance around to get your space. You get to pick and choose what you want to work off of.

In an uncontrolled arena, and assuming your in the fight, then your opponent and/or you are probably going to try and take each others heads off as quick as possible. To me there isnt much "running" around because if there was I'd just run to the cops then. But if you been in a fight then you'd know thats probably not what happens. The guy throws a punch and some how gives you an opening somewhere (or you create one) then you make him pay for making a mistake, and also for fighting with you. BAM* the fight is over, no dancing.

Aside from the running part, I've been to the class that he takes (San Shou/San Da) and the instructor there has a very sport approach compared to the previous one. They don't really go over self defense as much as sport San Shou Kickboxing. The previous instructor focused on both ring and self defense. I know both of the instructors so I can kind of feel the vibe in the air. This friend that we're talking about agreess with me as well.


Quote:

I'm curious. Isn't the conservative approach something that isn't altogether a bad idea in the street? I'm asking because I teach guys to stay disciplined and lead with the jab while creating angles and maintaining range. Sounds to me like he was doing the same thing.



Yes maintaining a comfortable range for yourself and creating angles is good. What you said is overall good advice and habit building for any kind of fight.

But like I said, if you're in a fight then you're going to fight. I'm a pretty peaceful person so if a guy gives me THAT much room and space then I'd find a way to just stop the fight. Hes not fighting me, I'm not fighting him. Whats the point? If you want to fight me then fight.

Quote:

I realize that you were playing around here, but why did you take that approach if you're into a "street" approach?



well I can't really say why I even tried a move like that. I just reacted & tried to kick him in the head. Most likely because my 1st kick was aimed towards his head, so I guess I tried to seal the deal. But I really can't say why, it just happened. I just know I wanted to continue to press the attack.

Also I kind of gave up that street approach after he started running everywhere. I just said F it and kind of just kickboxed with him.

Quote:

Yeah, I believe footwork is of paramount importance. But I was curious to know why you thought his use of footwork, staying well outside and being non-committal was tantamount to a "sport" mentality. Not starting [censored] mind you, just generally curious.



hahah its okay, I welcome discussion

IMO, in sports you have lots of time to think, strategize, feel your opponent out, etc etc. But if you were to get in a real fight, the guy doesn't want to feel anything but his knuckles cracking your skull. Hes going to come at you head on arms swinging. Theres also not a lot of time either (unless your setting up a street fight) so you have to act instantly. Also you don't have 3,5 rounds to KO/submit/etc the guy. You have to do then and there for your safety & sometimes theirs.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#369319 - 08/02/08 05:40 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: IExcalibui2]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
"Sport training" doesn't take into consideration rough terrain, debris, low light situations, no ref or rules, a lot of the techniques used in sport fighting leaves you wide open for dirty tactics, multiple attackers (obviously you're nearly screwed in those situations but you usually have the chance to at least escape alive with the right training or else soldiers wouldn't train to deal with that stuff), suprise attacks, large gloves, etc.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#369320 - 08/02/08 06:57 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: Stormdragon]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

"Sport training" doesn't take into consideration rough terrain, debris, low light situations, no ref or rules, a lot of the techniques used in sport fighting leaves you wide open for dirty tactics, multiple attackers (obviously you're nearly screwed in those situations but you usually have the chance to at least escape alive with the right training or else soldiers wouldn't train to deal with that stuff), suprise attacks, large gloves, etc.




Let me start with Stormy's here. Lets see where we can agree...

Can we say that training for "sport" is; gearing your training toward a specific event and it's unique rules structure? Expanding upon this, I've seen guys (in the past) from Pride fighting in the UFC. The two have different rules structures. Kneeing from the ground was legal in Pride (correct me if I'm wrong...I've not see that many Pride events) and it isn't in the UFC. So what happened was, a guy was called for an illegal knee/kicking the other man while down.

That illustrates what happens when you train for a specific rules structure for one place that's different in another. Of course the opposite can be true, where you DON'T prepare for something allowed and miss the opportunities to either execute it yourself, or in your unpreparedness, you get hit by something you weren't anticipating (which I believe is the angle many people take when they discuss "sport" fighting).

Now you bring up such issues as terrain, debris, low light, etc., all of which are valid. These are environmental factors. These are IMO, easily overcome and prepared for through standard training (which is a good topic for debate by itself). I believe that standard training in an environmentally friendly atmosphere, can prepare you for an environmentally UNFRIENDLY atmosphere. The reason? Because although situations may change (environment, etc), delivery systems do NOT change. Thus, to the person who has the developed delivery system(s), the environmental factores are merely "details".

In terms of dirty tactics; the delivery system argument remains unchanged. The reason; because "dirt" is a cheap substitute for skill, which again goes back to the subject of delivery systems. People with functional delivery systems will simply be at a higher level of skill than the person without. While not downplaying "foul tactics" (because a finger burried knuckle deep is a situation), they are still only a detail. If the person applying the foul tactic (or attempting to is the better word) can't match skill with his opponent, it's a moot point. If the skill level is higher, its overkill.

The topic of gloves is also moot in most cases. Gloves simply allow people to train at higher intensities. Substituting smaller MMA gloves can replicate a street encounter easily. Not a biggie here at all.

Multiple opponents are bad news. Weapons even the playing field, unless they are armed too and aiming at you. You might then ask yourself what you did to pi$$ off an entire group of people (serious soul searching would be advisable).

Bottom line is, you can't prepare for everything. What you CAN do is develop your game to the highest level, then if you wanted to, go train on asphalt, on bare ground, on ice, in a swimming pool, an elevator, a stairwell, in the dark, with no clothes on. Me? I'll train hard and take my chances. I have to much going on to worry about every possible way in which I might encounter someone training to hit me in the face.

I suppose the question to ask is; what are we preparing for? Next is; what are we most worried about? I personally am not worried about being attacked by a guy wearing a swim ring (inner tube) in a pool, so I don't train for that.

...Of course I train for being attacked by MULTIPLE guys in swim rings


-John

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#369321 - 08/02/08 08:45 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: JKogas]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
I agree..training in a nice place can prepare you for fighting in an un-nice place. No big deal

gloves..well like you said theres sparring grade MMA gloves out there (I just wish they were a bit cheaper!)..I'd prefer those over big boxing gloves any day though. I like using my fingers
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#369322 - 08/02/08 09:09 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: IExcalibui2]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
True points, I mostly agress except that I think a person should consider the situations they may find themselves in and the environments and take some time to learn what is necessary to adapt, how their standard methods may need to be modified and train "alive" in those situtations.
Not base your entire training program on all the oddball situations and focus on the primary thing (delivery system and attributes) but have that as a piece of their training.
Pride fighters trained for their rules and situtations and ufc fighters trained for theirs. The basics remain the same basically but they see the need to adapt to different situations and adapt depending on the details that they knew were likely to come up so why shouldn't we? It's the same in the military, the basic concepts are the same and the techniques start the same, but depending on where you're going and what situations you're going to face you adapt your training while remembering the basics. For example urban warfare vs. woodland combat utilize the exact same principles of shooting technique and leadership principles are the same, etc. but the tactics have to be modified for the different environments and enemies. They dont train for "every" situation just what they are likely to face.
Going back to the military shooting analogy in bootcamp you learn the basic stances, and principles of accurate shooting and they remain the same no matter what but how you apply them in a unit can change, how the unit will move through an area changes, stances might change, etc. but the core is the same. The basic skills you learn are taken in slightly different directions but the core is always there and always trained.


Edited by Stormdragon (08/02/08 09:11 PM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#369323 - 08/02/08 09:48 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: IExcalibui2]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I like using my grip as well. Its an integral part of what we do. I just like isolating certain aspects of certain games. Like boxing for example. I really enjoy throwing on the big gloves and airing it out. Even when going with less intensity, we still push through with body weight (its good to conserve brain cells when possible). Those big gloves allow more realism when trading.

Of course you can do the same things with MMA gloves, but you're still going to pay when you go harder. There's no avoiding that. You can throw on the headgear, but there is evidence to suggest the headgear won't stop brain trauma - it just prevents cutting.

Regardless, I definitely believe that you're not getting a complete picture if all you do is train with big gloves. The mma training gloves are pricey, but the pair I have from combatsports.com have lasted me three years now and going. Not bad.

But, this thread is drifting a little.

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#369324 - 08/02/08 10:19 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: Stormdragon]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

True points, I mostly agress except that I think a person should consider the situations they may find themselves in .....




I have no problem with this at all. I just have to wonder to what extent we have to go as civilians? How hard-core does a person have to be outside of training that is in itself, fairly hard-core? Consider most adults who have responsibilities outside of the gym?

Speaking only for me, my life is pretty busy and hectic, as are most folks who work, have a family, care for aging parents, etc. Somewhere in there you find the time for training on TOP of everything else. I suppose I could take on the extra load of doing "SWAT" training, but I honestly....and...sincerely...don't see the real benefit. Its easier to make intelligent life decisions than to be paranoid and train for every contingency.

Now if you're in law enforcement or the armed forces, that's another issue entirely. But...those guys carry weapons. Lets not forget we are talking about "martial arts" here.


Quote:


Pride fighters trained for their rules and situtations and ufc fighters trained for theirs. The basics remain the same basically but they see the need to adapt to different situations and adapt depending on the details that they knew were likely to come up so why shouldn't we?





Again, I can't speak for you or anyone else here...but I've already done this, just as have so many others already training MMA style. I don't know about where you train, but the only rules in MY gym is to take care of our training partners. Other than that, there are no rules. As well, we train for every range. Ocassionally we even throw in some knife work. I honestly don't know what else we're supposed to do. I already know how to run...so that big part of my self defense training is already a part of me. HAS been for some time.


Quote:


It's the same in the military, the basic concepts are the same and the techniques start the same, but depending on where you're going and what situations you're going to face you adapt your training while remembering the basics.





Hows that apply to civilian life that isn't covered by basic awareness of your surroundings?


Quote:


For example urban warfare vs. woodland combat utilize the exact same principles of shooting technique and leadership principles are the same, etc. but the tactics have to be modified for the different environments and enemies. They dont train for "every" situation just what they are likely to face.





I understand that. But how does that apply to me running down to the 7-ll for a slurpy?


Quote:


Going back to the military shooting analogy in bootcamp you learn the basic stances, and principles of accurate shooting and they remain the same no matter what but how you apply them in a unit can change, how the unit will move through an area changes, stances might change, etc. but the core is the same. The basic skills you learn are taken in slightly different directions but the core is always there and always trained.





Tell that to the working stiff in the Geo Metro with three kids in the back whining about the fast food joint getting the gender wrong for their happy meal toys. I think its important that we zoom in out of "Rambo mode" a minute and remember that civilian life is a far cry from the green berets roaming around in the bush. If you want to put cammo on and paint your face, go out in the dark and train tactically, great. Maybe you've got more time than me. Won't matter worth a turd in a punchbowl if you can't simply fight on a level playing field to begin with. Toys are great. Games are fun. Taking ourselves WAY too seriously tends to have a strong effect on our egos and makes us feel like we're really "doing something".

At some point, there are just other things I'd rather be doing than putting ninja suits on and trying to see how long I can stay "invisible". But that's just me.....

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#369325 - 08/03/08 01:32 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: JKogas]
Happy Birthday TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Quote:

Tell that to the working stiff in the Geo Metro with three kids in the back




Is it even possible to have 3 kids in the back of a Geo metro? Their faces must be paced to the hatchback window.

Quote:

there are just other things I'd rather be doing than putting ninja suits on and trying to see how long I can stay "invisible".




Don't knock it till you try it

Okay so instead of trying to clinch my 6'3 friend, I went from straight blast into dirty boxing. I must have gone low because I elbowed his upper thigh and he instantly dropped complaining about a dead leg or charley horse. I should work on underhooks and takedowns.

John

I know your not big on self perfection skills known as chi sao, subrada, and hubud. But for a beginner, how important do you think these self perfection skills are?

It is my understanding that working these skills help develop attributes.

Coupled with weapons training, you can increase your attributes and the crisp or your techniques.

For example, knife and stick training helps improve your body mechanics. Which can transpose to empty hand fighting. Do you agree?

Also how often do you do that wrestlers self perfection drill, the one where they bump shoulders practicing for underhook positions? Its common to see all MMA fighters with wrestling skills practice this drill prior to their fight.

-Tek
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#369326 - 08/03/08 03:58 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: TeK9]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


Is it even possible to have 3 kids in the back of a Geo metro? Their faces must be paced to the hatchback window.




You're gettin' the picture!

Quote:


Okay so instead of trying to clinch my 6'3 friend, I went from straight blast into dirty boxing. I must have gone low because I elbowed his upper thigh and he instantly dropped complaining about a dead leg or charley horse. I should work on underhooks and takedowns.




Thats REAL dirty boxing. But that's cool too. Just continue to research that and you'll be fine. Dirty boxing for many folks is the SINGLE neck tie. Check out the fight between Randy Couture and Vitor Belfort way back in UFC 17 (or something like that). Randy puts on a Dirty Boxing CLINIC in that fight.

Quote:


I know your not big on self perfection skills known as chi sao, subrada, and hubud. But for a beginner, how important do you think these self perfection skills are?




I don't mind the notion of self-perfection drills. But I do think you can run into problems doing some drills. Hubud is a BIG no-no for me particularly because of how far the elbows tend to come away from the body. That's why I don't really care for chi-sao and all the others. What you want to be doing for drilling is PUMMELING. Head pummeling, wrist pummeling (aka, "hand fighting") neck pummeling and body pummeling. Even LEG pummeling when playing guard bottom. These are things that will have more of a direct translation to the fight game.
Some stick drills, I don't have a problem with. Empty hand to me however is different. Beginner/advanced status; makes no differences. Beginners can pummel just like the pros. Just take things slow; speed wise and pace of learning. This is not a race. Take your time and enjoy the journey remembering that there IS no real destination.


Quote:


It is my understanding that working these skills help develop attributes.




What working some of these things will do is create bad habits. Elbows away from the body = bad juju! Hubud is bad about lifting the elbows high at points, not something you want to do at that range.


Quote:

Coupled with weapons training, you can increase your attributes and the crisp or your techniques.




I don't think there is anything wrong with weapons training. Knife sparring will help (and it's fun). I like empty hand vs. knife sparring. Now THAT will get you somewhere! I have a unique drill for this scenario: I'll have one guy keep a knife in his waist band (training knife, folks). Then I have both guys start pummeling in the clinch. At some random point, the guy with the knife will attempt to draw in and "stab" his partner. The partner tries to develop a feel for that and pick the draw up when this occurs, or, deals with it from the point of having been "cut/stabbed". It's a great drill for developing sensitivity. You can play this game with your eyes closed or open as well for more fun (which if you want good sensitivity in the clinch/"trapping" range, you'll learn to pummel, then do so with your eyes both opened and closed at random times).


Quote:

For example, knife and stick training helps improve your body mechanics. Which can transpose to empty hand fighting. Do you agree?




I think they certainly have their places in the scope of training. I use quite a bit of Filipino footwork in my empty hand boxing game. I also see many of the same entries and maneuvers playing out in the empty hand at times.

Quote:


Also how often do you do that wrestlers self perfection drill, the one where they bump shoulders practicing for underhook positions? Its common to see all MMA fighters with wrestling skills practice this drill prior to their fight.





Yep, that's the pummeling (Swim drill) I was referring to earlier in this post (body pummeling). That is something we do in vitrually every clinch session we work on. Combined with the others (head, neck, hand, leg) you really develop some great attributes for true fighting application. That drill is great for your upper body wresting (there are a lot of attacks from that over-under position). And while that's a "deep" clinch (you're very committed to your opponent), it has to be mastered, just because that kind of clinch is so common in real fights.

More later..

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#369327 - 08/04/08 03:00 AM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: JKogas]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
I don't think theres a need for constant training of different environments. Drills here & there for certain scenarios are helpful. But no need to train in a bar scene all the time. You have the body mechanics & reaction from just regular training so continue to build that up from your regular training. Maybe using the scenarios as tests would be a good idea.


As far as pummeling goes, I think much of Chinese MA develops sensitivity through their drills. It may not be body to body all the time (WC's Chi Sao drill) but it can be since trapping & clinch range are almost the same. These perfection drills helps to develop precise skill in the sensitivity department. Once you develop your bridge (connection) to the other guy you can feel out much of what they're doing. But these drills do have their place & limitations. They're designed to train a certain skill set, not all. So if you're smart enough you'd take those skills from the drill & then apply it. Bring in the aliveness! Unfortunately not all people realize this....

Btw I don't think elbows should be too close to the body. Makes you closed up and also more movement required when you want to lash your arms/hands out. Think of all the movement you would need if you wanted to elbow a person too. Elbow travels from your side all the way up to proper position for the hit & then to your target. Thats coming from bottom to the top & then across. If your elbows were a bit higher and out, you cut the distance by a little. Muay Thai fighters throw elbows out as fast as jabs because the weapon is out & ready to be used. Someone that stands like Mike Tyson would take a bit longer to elbow a person.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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