FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 17 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
sunny, swordy, jerrybarry24, SenseiGregT, sagat
22914 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Ed_Morris 4
futsaowingchun 3
ergees 2
Zombie Zero 2
AndyLA 2
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
New Topics
STX Kickboxing Seminar
by Marcus Charles
09/09/14 06:57 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
mindfullness meditation
by
01/06/09 11:27 AM
Recent Posts
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Zombie Zero
Today at 04:43 PM
Eugue Ryu
by kolslaw
09/12/14 03:35 PM
attacked from behind
by AndyLA
09/07/14 07:01 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
09/02/14 06:26 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
mindfullness meditation
by log1call
08/31/14 09:43 PM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
The Karate punch
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:27 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
Forum Stats
22914 Members
36 Forums
35575 Topics
432492 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 6 of 9 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >
Topic Options
#369338 - 11/15/08 07:41 AM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: janxspirit]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I'm actually taking a look at CM systems stuff. Rodney King has got some great ideas. Essential the same stuff I'm learning from Voo.

Infact I notice Matt Hamil the deaf UFC fighter, holds his hands up to his head using his elbows to block punches to his face.

I still prefer Vu's style which is more of a MT style of keeping your hands up high, this doesnt impair your vision as much as CM's version does. Vu's requires a lot of footwork and keeping your distance in kickboxers range in order to make it work. I assume CM's just the same, only he doesn't mention it.

One thing I don't like about CM is that he drops his hands agin to go into boxing. But I guess i just need to become more proficient in it.

Vu's Rat system favors the straight blast. Goes well with keeping the hands up high guard.

Glad someone was finally willing to post on this thread. I hope more to come.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

Top
#369339 - 11/15/08 08:56 AM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: TeK9]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Stormdragon wrote:
Quote:

John, what's your view on bobbing and weaving and fighting out of a crouch in the cotnext of mma? A lot of guys avoid doing that even though it works well in boxing, because of the possibility of knees or snap downs.





I agree that it puts you at risk for exactly the reasons you mention. Bending over at the waist - not good. Changing level on the other hand is a different story. You can modify the bob & weave by less of a shift, as well as duck beneath a punch by changing level. Bending forward at the waist just isn't a good idea. It's the reason a Greco-Roman approach to wrestling for fighting is preferred over the freestyle/folkstyle stance.


Quote:


I like the tactic and I think it can give another way to enter the clinch but is it more dangerous than it's worth (I'm talking about bobbing and weaving a la Tyson or Dempsey)?





Again, you can modify these things. Ultimately it comes down to you, and how good your timing, set-ups and overall experience is in relation to whom you're fighting.


Quote:

On another note, how does Counter Assault Tactics relate to Vunak's RAT? IS it jsut a knock off of RAT?





Are you speaking of Demi Barbito's program? I can't speak for Demi, but I believe he was a former student of Vunak. Undoubtedly that influence has shaped his point of view. The CAT is just his take on the whole thing, although I can't speak with any certainty because I've not seen his material nor trained with him. He seems like a knowledgeable guy.


janxspirit wrote:
Quote:


Straight Blast Gym's "Crazy Monkey" boxing is a really awesome delivery system for elbow destructions. If you want to become really great at elbow destructions, then work a boxing corner drill at every training session utilizing the crazy monkey. Elbow destructions just kind of happen on their own from this structure. Great stuff!





The fundamentals of the CM are phenominal. I agree that spikes can occur out of the CM mechanics. The Crazy Monkey method is whole different animal in it's own right. Great material there!


Tek9 wrote:
Quote:

I'm actually taking a look at CM systems stuff. Rodney King has got some great ideas. Essential the same stuff I'm learning from Voo.





I definitely believe there is some overlap, though that is incidental. However it shows you that people can come up with a lot of the same concepts. Rodney's material is just SO rooted in establishing solid fundamentals for a good game.


Quote:


Infact I notice Matt Hamil the deaf UFC fighter, holds his hands up to his head using his elbows to block punches to his face.





Quinton Jackson (Rampage) also uses the same essential mechanics for his defense.


Quote:


I still prefer Vu's style which is more of a MT style of keeping your hands up high, this doesnt impair your vision as much as CM's version does.





Oddly enough (and I wasn't going to mention this, but I feel it's necessary here), I've been certified by Vunak and I'm now a rep for Rodney King. I feel I can speak for both programs on some level here.

I think there are still some misconceptions about the CM approach that exist. Having trained using this method since 2002, it's a HUGE (HUGE) part of my game. The CM isn't a "static" motion that you have to use all the time. Also, I don't notice any lack of vision at all whenever I'm applying the mechanics properly. I think that's a key point.



Quote:


Vu's requires a lot of footwork and keeping your distance in kickboxers range in order to make it work. I assume CM's just the same, only he doesn't mention it.





Absolutely. This again is another area of similarity. In the CM school of thought, that outside distance is known as the "Rimshot" range. There are various stages/phases of the CM. That distance is known as CM1. However you aren't limited to this stage or distance, obviously. It's just that a fundamental game begins at that stage.



Quote:


One thing I don't like about CM is that he drops his hands agin to go into boxing. But I guess i just need to become more proficient in it.





Well, that's just Rodney. Actually, he doesn't encourage people to drop their hands. But you see, that's his individual style. That's what he would have called, CM5, which is thought of as "attribute-based boxing" as opposed to CM stages 1 through 4. In fact, he preaches that everyone should remain in the CM posture throughout their sparring sessions on both sides of the coin (offense and defense). In other words, you will fire your strikes out of that high cover position.

Its just that for folks who have some experience and skill in boxing, you are "allowed" to play a looser, more attribute driven game. That's what its called CM5, not CM1. Just thought I would add some clarity to that. There are a lot of things about the method that people outside of the program aren't completely aware of (for example, the inclusion of the clinch, etc).



Quote:

Vu's Rat system favors the straight blast. Goes well with keeping the hands up high guard. Glad someone was finally willing to post on this thread. I hope more to come.





The straight blast is something I feel is workable at any point. In fact, the boxing blast (which I prefer) works quite well out of the CM structure.


My two cents.


-John

Top
#369340 - 11/15/08 06:08 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: JKogas]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
You guys got me wondering about this CM stuff so I looked at some youtube videos. Already it's showed me stuff I've been doing wrong and can now correct, sweet! He has this modified duck thing that sounds about liek what you were saying on to do with bobbing and weaving John.
Just to make sure I'm on the right track, when you say branching out does that mena, once you've got yoru fudnamentals down pretty well, you can pick up random things you like from other styles as long as you maintain your core method? You said you've pulled in some Silat to your game, are they just random Silat techniques you like or do you put more time into learning basic Silat principles and whatnot?
I ask because there are of coruse as you know other stuff I like, especially from Kenpo, but I'm not sure how to itnegrate that into a boxing/mma/RAT (which I still love) approach. I tend to give up most of my "fundamentals" and go all out Kenpo if I try to use it. I suppose I would have to modify a lot of the Kenpo to make it fit.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

Top
#369341 - 11/15/08 06:37 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: Stormdragon]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

He has this modified duck thing that sounds about like what you were saying on to do with bobbing and weaving John.





Yes Stormy, that's it exactly. He's modified things to work for real fights, but it's not BS. It's all functional; trained against progressive resistance and "alive".


Quote:


Just to make sure I'm on the right track, when you say branching out does that mean, once you've got your fundamentals down pretty well, you can pick up random things you like from other styles as long as you maintain your core method?





That's basically it. However there is one caveat; whatever you "branch out" with, should somewhat fit within the fundamentals of the delivery systems you're working the fundamentals OUT of. In other words, if I'm boxing, I'm probably not going to start doing crane style kung fu, etc.


Quote:

You said you've pulled in some Silat to your game, are they just random Silat techniques you like or do you put more time into learning basic Silat principles and whatnot?





Well, it's nothing too fancy. You want to stay with techniques that you can train alive. Some moves just do not fit within that criteria. The easier moves are the one's you want to start playing with, in SPARRING. That's key. Whatever you do, should be able to be done during sparring, because that's the key to knowing whether or not you can apply them during a fight. The more complex the move obviously, the less chance it has of working.

The kali-silat stuff that I work in include elbow spikes, foot sweeps, a kenjit. Nothing too crazy. But that's because the easy stuff from boxing and wrestling actually works better. Thats why that sort of stuff is the foundation.


Quote:


I ask because there are of coruse as you know other stuff I like, especially from Kenpo, but I'm not sure how to itnegrate that into a boxing/mma/RAT (which I still love) approach. I tend to give up most of my "fundamentals" and go all out Kenpo if I try to use it. I suppose I would have to modify a lot of the Kenpo to make it fit.





Fighting is fighting. I don't care what 'style' you're using. If it doesn't work in sparring (fighting), it probably isn't worth practicing. Seriously! Everything you want to branch out with, should work within the sparring environment. If not, contemplate why it doesn't. Think hard about that.



-John

Top
#369342 - 11/16/08 09:33 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: JKogas]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Hey John, right now I'm in a situation where I dont have a training partner. I do a lot of shadowboxing and single person drills (not kata) but what would you do in my place?
I'm kind of screwed although a couple guys in my unit are mma fighters (pretty good ones too fighting with team quest Portland) but they dont live too close. I dont have the money to train at a gym and my usual training partner lives a ways away now. Kinda screwed.


Edited by Stormdragon (11/16/08 09:35 PM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

Top
#369343 - 11/16/08 09:51 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: Stormdragon]
MartialMack Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 38
Loc: Nashville
Seems like the Keysi guys have incorporated some of the Crazy Monkey stuff into their approach.

Anyone know much about Keysi other than its use in the new Batman movies? I know that the founders are full instructors under Inosanto--and there's definitely the JKD influence in there--but I'm yet to see the stuff sparred.

As you said John:

Quote:

If it doesn't work in sparring (fighting), it probably isn't worth practicing. Seriously! Everything you want to branch out with, should work within the sparring environment. If not, contemplate why it doesn't. Think hard about that.




I get tired of these so-called JKD guys like Carruthers who never seem to post sparring examples. I mean, maybe Carruthers is good, but is there any example of him sparring out there?

Top
#369344 - 11/17/08 05:36 AM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: MartialMack]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


I get tired of these so-called JKD guys like Carruthers who never seem to post sparring examples. I mean, maybe Carruthers is good, but is there any example of him sparring out there?





You know, I really can't say anything about Carruthers, because I don't know the man. I haven't seen him spar in any videos, but he may spar with his guys and simply not put those videos out.

It's hard to know people without experiencing them first hand you know?

Top
#369345 - 11/17/08 04:40 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: JKogas]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
That guy moves like greased lightning, and is insanely strong. I dont care how little sparring he does I wouldnt mess with him with anything shrot of a .357 lol
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

Top
#369346 - 12/07/08 03:36 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: Stormdragon]
MartialMack Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 38
Loc: Nashville
Has anyone seen Vunak's "Enigma" series yet?

Any thoughts?

Top
#369347 - 12/07/08 05:04 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: MartialMack]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I have seen the Enigma series. Not to knock Vunak, but I would consider placing my hard-earned money elsewhere -- unless of course, you just happen to like his idea of training. I left that sort of thing several years back.

On this series, he shows how to conduct training, by exponentially "stacking" training concepts and techniques into infinity. Nice idea. The problem however (IMO) are the techniques and drills themselves.

I watched this for all of about five minutes before I realized that it wasn't my cup of tea. There are far better methods. Less is more anyway. Focus on fundamentals and drill THEM into infinity. You'll be far better off.

Top
Page 6 of 9 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >


Moderator:  Cord, JKogas, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Self Defense
Offering stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and other self defense products not available in stores.

Pepper Spray
Online distributor of self defense supplies like videos, stun guns, Tasers and more.

Spy Cameras
Surveillance, Hidden Cameras, Nanny Cams, Digital Recorders, Spy Equipment, Pocket DVR's and more

Stun Gun
Wholesale Directlhy to the Public! Stun gun and Taser Guns and personal protection products. Keep your loved ones at home safe!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga