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#369308 - 07/30/08 12:59 AM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: IExcalibui2]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Arthur

My mistake, when I was describing it to John I meant to say "thumbing" the eye. As John stated its basically raking the eyes with the thumbs on the way in for the clinch.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#369309 - 07/30/08 11:39 AM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: TeK9]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
ooooh, that makes it more clear...yea I wouldnt bother with an eye rake. Your still making contact with the guy so he knows where you are without needing to see you.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#369310 - 07/30/08 11:44 AM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: IExcalibui2]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


I mean, the eye gouge is "on the way" but 1) it doesn't sound like your motive is to take the guy's eye out, you're going for a clinch. So doesn’t sound like you're committed to really jam that thumb to the back of the socket. Without that kind of mentality, just don't do it. 2) its still a small target to hit even if its along the way. Now blinding BOTH eyes would be a different story in my opinion....Maybe trying to rip the guy's ear off might be nice though?




I see what you’re saying. I agree too. If my objective is to go “knuckle deep”, lol, I’m going to have that as my main priority and probably use that more as an opportunity to create space even, and not so much to clinch.

Besides, if you don’t get in quickly and establish good position, you run the risk of your clinch entry being countered by a more experienced wrestler. Part of the danger here actually lies in the manner in which you enter as well. Many people reach way too much without a good sense of timing or an appropriate set-up as well. I never like reaching away from my body too much (quick punching notwithstanding) unless its as a counter movement. When I clinch, I am moving my entire body into close range.


Quote:


John, I don't kick too often either. Most of my training is devoted to my hands (southern Kungfu right?) and I only end up using kicks if I tend to kickbox with another person. I don't like it because we're hitting each other like we're looking for points but I don't train for sport so I'm hardly in that arena where we're just tagging each other.





I tend to train out of an MMA context, though not really for “sport”, as it were. Thus sparring is a huge part of our training process. Sparring for us is often quite hard at times. Clinching and takedowns are allowed, so I’ve learned (as do my partners) about kicking. It’s not that difficult to catch the leg kicks and hit a quick takedown. Against the other types of kicks, its easy to avoid and close the distance and obtain the clinch (if the kicks aren’t set up well).

The thing about kicking is, if you’re going to train them for self-defense, you should train them within an MMA context which allows for takedowns and ground work. Folks would then learn how to throw them and set them up in such a context. This isn’t often the case, particularly within TKD where there is often, very little truly effective punching, very little effective clinch and ground.

Quote:

That said, I keep my kicks low and something like a groin kick appeals to me just because if you land the hit the pay out is 10x more effort than you put in. Other than that theres not much kicking.




Do you use kicks to the groin in sparring? If so, what kind of cup are you wearing bro?


Quote:

oh Chokes are lovely. I would definitely go for a choke, as long as I'm not on the ground or in a vulnerable position. So if I was to choke someone out, I'd be on my feet. Bent over or standing straight, I'll be on my feet.




Depending on the situation, I actually prefer to use a choke from the ground because I can better control my opponent there. However, in a street fight (which I never am involved in by the way), I’d not always commit myself to such an attack. It would completely depend on circumstances.

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#369311 - 07/30/08 11:55 AM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: JKogas]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
Quote:

I tend to train out of an MMA context, though not really for “sport”, as it were. Thus sparring is a huge part of our training process. Sparring for us is often quite hard at times. Clinching and takedowns are allowed, so I’ve learned (as do my partners) about kicking. It’s not that difficult to catch the leg kicks and hit a quick takedown. Against the other types of kicks, its easy to avoid and close the distance and obtain the clinch (if the kicks aren’t set up well).

The thing about kicking is, if you’re going to train them for self-defense, you should train them within an MMA context which allows for takedowns and ground work. Folks would then learn how to throw them and set them up in such a context. This isn’t often the case, particularly within TKD where there is often, very little truly effective punching, very little effective clinch and ground.



Actually I do train it with MMA in mind (come on its JKD we're talking about here). Last time I sparred it was bare knuckle (well hand wraps) and anything goes, just don't be stupid. I found my partner just running around in circles like it was a sport match, which bothered me because, like I said, I don't enjoy running around tagging each other for points. So seeing as he didn't do anything I just decided to practice my high kicks on him (gave me a couple bruises on my shins).


Quote:

Do you use kicks to the groin in sparring? If so, what kind of cup are you wearing bro?



No haven't kicked anybody in the groin in sparring or demonstrating. Usually I end up kicking the top inside of their thighs when I'm showing others a certain move or what not. As for sparring, we usually don't allow crotch shots.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#369312 - 07/31/08 01:41 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: IExcalibui2]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I'm having trouble with taller opponents in trapping range. I'm 5'7, my friends 6'3 or 6'4 big mofo, I can straight blast him, but once I reach trapping range, I cant plum or neck tie him.

If I'm lucky enough I can run him down with the straight blast. Sometimes immediately after the blast, I give him a real hard shove to known him down. I suppose I can try take downs, but at the moment those are extremely hard for me right now. I haven't gotten to the point where I can take down my opponent without hurting myself in the process.

Um lets see, after I've done the blast on him, I've concluded with thigh kick, my kicks are fairly hard and that seems to work.

I need more options, I cant use HKE's on him if I can't clinch him.

Anyone have suggestions?
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#369313 - 07/31/08 03:01 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: TeK9]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
just a question, whats a HKE?

as for the tall opponent..I have the same problem. I'm 5'9 and my friend is like 6'3 too so its hard for me to get in. He also has a tactic to always keep running away so its hard for me to gain the inside. So I happen to end up playing a more distant game with him. Like I said, I just ended up throwing some strikes from the outside (playing tag) which I didnt like at all. I got a few good hits on his inside: a couple heavy shots to his chest and a nice chop to his neck.

But I learned that to gain the inside you might have to get hurt, same with takedowns. It might worth it to take a kick/punch and have him end up on the ground.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#369314 - 07/31/08 03:42 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: IExcalibui2]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
HKE = Headbutt's, knee's, and elbow's.

When we spar we do not run around. Since we are trying to emulate real life street fights or self defense situations, if my opponent ran from me, that would be great for me. I want to end the confrontation has quickly as possible so if he runs one way, I'm sprinting in the other direction.

But yea, I can understand how frustrating it must be when your sparring partner runs around on you. Makes it more of a sport rather than an actual altercation type scenario.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#369315 - 07/31/08 10:02 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: TeK9]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

I'm having trouble with taller opponents in trapping range. I'm 5'7, my friends 6'3 or 6'4 big mofo, I can straight blast him, but once I reach trapping range, I cant plum or neck tie him.





I have a guy that is about 6'6". You aren't just going up and hit a plumm on guys like that, especially if they know how to bullneck. However, a knee shot might cause the taller folks to pike forward a bit,

Aside from the plumm (which I personally don't like that much), I'd try and hit an underhook on one side and with your shorter height (relative to him), you can then sag down on that arm and take away his mobility.

Another option is just to use your arms in a "double pillar" (both forearms straight up and down like you're going to ram something). Move straight inside until your arms are practically against his chest. From here you have the inside position (its a center position, just like the plumm presents). In that range, you can reach for the underhook on one side, the body lock, or just stay tight to him and work the inside tools (uppercuts/hooks followed by straights). Its really worth investigating the underhook however (body locks as well). You can knee from those positions as well as angle off and punch (moreso with the underhook).



Quote:


If I'm lucky enough I can run him down with the straight blast. Sometimes immediately after the blast, I give him a real hard shove to known him down. I suppose I can try take downs, but at the moment those are extremely hard for me right now. I haven't gotten to the point where I can take down my opponent without hurting myself in the process.

Um lets see, after I've done the blast on him, I've concluded with thigh kick, my kicks are fairly hard and that seems to work.

I need more options, I cant use HKE's on him if I can't clinch him.

Anyone have suggestions?





Work on your clinch a lot more. All you need to do is to develop other positions aside from the plumm. Specifically the underhook. Like anything else, it takes time to learn the intricasies, yet completely worth the time you spend. Investigate the concept of "dirty boxing" and work on your in-fighting. That would be my advice. What I've found is that the more you work on your stand-up (outside and inside ranges), the more this will facilitate your clinch game.

Play and have fun. Thats what all this is about anyway. Enjoy yourself and branch out. Constantly push yourself to learn different approaches (though I'm sure this does not need to be said).

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#369316 - 08/01/08 12:25 AM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: TeK9]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
Quote:

But yea, I can understand how frustrating it must be when your sparring partner runs around on you. Makes it more of a sport rather than an actual altercation type scenario.




yea...I was completely frustrated because he knows I'm not training for sport while his training is geared towards sport. And he only tried 3 moves on me, while the whole time I'm pressing the match. 1 was a stiff jab that caught me good. The other 2 was when he caught my kick & tried for a sweep, neither of them worked because I just jumped at him. 1st sweep, I didnt know what I was thinking, but I tried to jump up in the air and kick him in the head (some movie stuff lol). Distance was off so I kinda ran into him and we separated. 2nd time I wanted to grab his head but he backed away from that so I ended up chopping him in the neck. Other than that it was a whole lot of moving in circles...I guess it was some good practice in terms of footwork
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#369317 - 08/01/08 07:07 AM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: IExcalibui2]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Ok, I have to ask a few questions (curiosity has been piqued and I am only asking to play devil‘s advocate). I am always curious about how folks view the sport vs. street distinctions so that's why I'm drifting here slightly....(if you all would rather us start another thread, thats cool)

IExcalibui2 wrote
Quote:


yea...I was completely frustrated because he knows I'm not training for sport while his training is geared towards sport.





What is different about his approach that gears it more toward sport? What specific strategy or tactic does he use that gives you that impression?



Quote:

And he only tried 3 moves on me, while the whole time I'm pressing the match. 1 was a stiff jab that caught me good.





I'm curious. Isn't the conservative approach something that isn't altogether a bad idea in the street? I'm asking because I teach guys to stay disciplined and lead with the jab while creating angles and maintaining range. Sounds to me like he was doing the same thing.


Quote:


The other 2 was when he caught my kick & tried for a sweep, neither of them worked because I just jumped at him. 1st sweep, I didnt know what I was thinking, but I tried to jump up in the air and kick him in the head (some movie stuff lol). Distance was off so I kinda ran into him and we separated.





I realize that you were playing around here, but why did you take that approach if you're into a "street" approach?


Quote:


2nd time I wanted to grab his head but he backed away from that so I ended up chopping him in the neck. Other than that it was a whole lot of moving in circles...I guess it was some good practice in terms of footwork





Yeah, I believe footwork is of paramount importance. But I was curious to know why you thought his use of footwork, staying well outside and being non-committal was tantamount to a "sport" mentality. Not starting [censored] mind you, just generally curious.


Thanks
-John

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