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#420765 - 07/11/09 04:35 AM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: ThunderinJoe]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Alright lets get this party started. Seems to me there are only 3 or 4 of us really familiar with the RAT system. Which is a shame because it encompasses really what everyone else in all the other forums are talking about...Which is combat.

John, being that I am an informal student of the RAT system, I guess its up to me to play devil's advocate, if for anything to have you elaborate even more on your point of view for my benefit and for those without a clue on the topic. Hopefully inviting more replies on the topic.

I suppose the best place to start off is the beginning with the Entry portion.

But first I want to ask to which group of people are you referring to up above? I think the RAT is different for non martial artist than it is for experienced practitioners. As an example I have a background in martial arts adapting the RAT was not difficult at all for me. Even adding more to my game has proven to be easier than i originally thought it would.

If non martial artist couldn't get a long with only the RAT, there is also the basic self defense portion. Escape To Gain Safety (ETGS) to me is a very important part of the training if your going to employ the RAT. Eyes, throat, groin, shins are the target areas regardless of the tool used. This is the first part that is taught to laymen's.

Those with experience don't require training in that area because they are already used to some level of combat.

ENTRY

Entry consists of two parts: Destruction's and Interceptions. Both are meant to illicit pain in your opponent to open a window for an assault.

Where you are in the terms of the RAT model depends in what fighting range your in. For simplicity lets start from long range. Here your in a defensive mode. Your guard is up elbows high. The main skills here is footwork. If you have plenty of room you can run. If not, then your looking for that entry.

No system of self defense will save you not even the RAT. A lot of training must be done in order to pull this off. The RAT just simplifies your understanding. Here timing, foot work, line familiarization take play. However with a few hours of practice and I mean like 50 hours compared to 2 years of martial training anyone can pull this off.

Once again here I have comment that a laymen would follow the strict model, where as someone like myself with a kick boxing background, as been able to create openings rather than wait for a destruction.

Using the high "MT" guard with your elbows high and proper footwork, the idea is to avoid punches using footwork and if one happen to land then it would be destroyed meaning block by you elbow. Causing the attack a bit of pain giving u room for an entry.

Once again there are several ways of entering, it can be done with a straight blast, boxers blast, you can even start with a jab, thigh kick, or groin kick to enter.

It doesn't necessarily has to be an eye jab. Which leads us to the second phase.

Pressure

As I said depending on the range of combat in which you are in decides which phase of the RAT your in.

For example: A woman who has just been grabbed. This would be mid range or even clinch range. Depending how she was grabbed determines her defensive attack to one of the four main targets: eyes, throat, groin, shins. This causes her attacker an instant of pain for her either to escape or enter further in the RAT.

If she enters the RAT this would put her in close range or "clinch" range. Which she proceeds with head butts, knees, and elbows. She also has the option if it is available to her to use a double neck tie to better control her assailant and continue with the attack.

Okay John I didn't get to far into the Pressure phase because I wanted to discuss more the Entry phase.

Hopefully I brought up some point regarding practitioners and on practitioners which should be addressed. When it comes to the RAT.

It is also good to mention that just because the RAT is a system or equation to simplify combat it should be noted that it takes practice to pull it off. It makes no promises and you only get what you put in. Just like any traditional form of combat.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#420793 - 07/11/09 10:35 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: TeK9]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Lets talk about the Entry phase for a bit...

I'll summarize what I think;

  • I don't think it's practical--as taught--for the non martial artist
  • I think your opponent will "enter" for you


Now these are just blanket statements obviously because there will undoubtedly be examples of where such techniques are/were effective.

But I'm more interested in what I refer to as "High Percentage" technique. I define high-percentage as something that works at least 80% of the time against at least 80% of the people you try it on, under high pressure situations. You'll come to see in that environment, that really doesn't leave a hell of a lot! That's the truth.

The operative expression there is "high pressure". Adrenal state, fight or flight, fog of war, loss of fine motor skills moments require high-percentage, pressure tested technique.

What I've found is that the "Crash Helmet" (or just, "helmet") is perhaps the best interceptor/entry maneuver that I know. This is particularly applicable when you have that wild, aggressive opponent swinging for the fences and coming in on you. The helmet allows you to meet that incoming force with a bit of force of your own. It would be about the only thing I would use.

Eye jabs and destructions, as taught in the RAT program, are something you'd use if you had an opponent who was more passive than aggressive. He's content to stay outside and you're both "pot-shotting" each other. You decide you have to get in. Maybe you catch one of those shots and gain a moment of timing that allows you to move in. But in my experience, it's your lucky day if you find an attacker who is passive and on the defensive, lol. Just not that many of those guys out there. That guy doesn't really want to fight. If you push it, you're the aggressor.


Pressure is something every fighter understands. When you have your opponent reeling and trying to back peddle, you smell blood and move in behind shots for the kill.

Using the Boxing Blast (a series of crosses) helps you to re-establish space if your opponent manages to escape from your Anderson Silva-like neck tie clinch.

So it's 8-step process:

1) Forklift posture as a neutral position (talk with your hands, keeping elbows in tight)

2) Helmet on the shot or movement into your personal space

3) Seek for the center position (neck clinch, pinch headlock, etc)

4) Knee the Bejeebers out of the guys testicles

5) Blast his ass as he reels backwards

6) Repeat as necessary

7) Run like hell to avoid the PO-leece

8) Head back home to get more time on the Mook Jong


wink

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#420864 - 07/14/09 01:14 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: JKogas]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
There is another entry we train,as well as similar to above, that involves anticipating the attack and not waiting for them to attack first then react.
Like this but used to get a an upper body area (eg neck) clinch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ep_vjJpiz0&feature=channel_page

Or like this at about 18 seconds,where Malaipet just takes the hands and clears them and not waiting to be attacked.Or the other things too like just putting your arms out on their hands on the way in before they even do anything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9EHmqEfSjo

I dont know where it fits on the 80 percent rule though as fights/situations are so random it could all come in handy depending on whats available and how good the opponent is and the situation.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#420874 - 07/15/09 12:03 AM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: matxtx]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
MATXTX are you talking about interceptions? Attacking before your opponent attacks?

An example would be like reading the guy, and getting his timing down. So you know when he is about to attack and you beat him to it.

Malaipet, that guy has wicked kicks. I saw him fight a guy who lives in my town David Douglas on an EliteXC card.

Douglas is a Gracie Fighter which is Cesar Gracie's guys. He's got great wrestling, but everything else seems lacking. Malaipet on the other hand only had his MT skills going for him, he didn't know the ground game at all.

But his kicks were phenomenal, he left welts all over Douglas. Who by the end of the fight was completely exhausted.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#420881 - 07/15/09 01:44 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Kind off,yea. Its more a realisation of distance and timing. Instead of trying to stop something after it happens its realising that at a certain range you could anticipate something will DEFINITLY come and set for it before. At a further range you have time to see it more so its more likey you can move or parry,cover whatever.
So if you want to clinch you can enter that range knowing something is coming and already be ready.

Or simply take their hands or clear them out the way before they even do anything with them.Like pre- emptive hand fighting.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#423623 - 11/20/09 04:32 AM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: matxtx]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I've been using the straight blast (standard vertical fist style with short punches) a lot lately and EVERY time they cover and just reel back. I use it after slipping outside to the 4o'clock (imagine the oppoenent is at your 12) or ducking to the 3o'clock. The only thing is you betetr be ready for the clinch because after the first 4 or 5 strikes you WILL tie up as if they don't go down they'll start grabbing stuff and your forward movement will put you into grappling range.
Distance is huge as well. Circling to the outside with jabs and then quickly stepping in and going up the middle works well too.
The previous way I mentioned isn't a blast up the centerline. Knees to the legs are an excellent follow up.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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