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#369298 - 11/29/07 08:24 AM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: JKogas]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I'm still here, still paying attention, you kind of summarized your first post, glad others are posting questions also. I'm still trying to organized my own.

Since the first question was regarding the straight blast. And how you personally have substituted pressure with a boxers blast or a boxing combination. I would just point out that the straight blast is the most direct and probably the simplest approach, yet not the only approach to applying pressure. But even for a layman it is pretty easy, which I guess is what Vunak was going for.


Still more to come regarding clinching taller people, head butts, groin strikes and eye gouges.

Oh and I really want to know how you've applied a wrestlers clinch to RAT. I really wanna hear about that John.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#369299 - 02/01/08 06:43 AM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: TeK9]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I am practically using the entire defensive structure these days from Vunak's RAT for my MMA stand-up defense (small gloves and bare knuckle situations).

What I've found is that what I has been using was very similar in many ways (R. King's "Crazy Monkey") to begin with. The only difference was what I noticed when takedowns were allowed, the "CM" structure had to be further modified. Once having modified it, I was right back to the Vunak structure (use of high guard covering with elbow destructions).

The only thing I've done to modify that for boxing striking is to use King's method of "diving" behind the strikes (firing high off the temple regions instead of dropping the hands to chin level to fire).

Use of distance and timing is important. You have to log a lot of hours sparring to dial it in.

What this yields is the ability to punch as well as enter behind your elbows as striking and defense tools. Once you're attached (have a tie up), you can work the knees as well.

The only thing I've done is spent a lot of time working pummeling from the neck and the body to work my counters and takedowns.

Really that isn't a great deal different than muay Thai (which does a lot of neck pummeling obviously). The only difference is the emphasis on the takedowns as well as the strikes.

Obviously on the street, the emphasis is always on breaking contact, but we like to have options. Takedowns are those options. We have to modify the ground positions to factor in more variables (such as the opponents friends and possible weapons, etc), otherwise when looking at it, it's straight up RAT, trained with aliveness and more options on the "termination/resolution" end of things -- particularly from a structural point of view.

However I've seen a lot of similar things in many Filipino martial arts where destructions are emphasized. Again, nothing much is different here save for the wrestling takedowns (as well as a few silat things I have seen that work for me).


-John

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#369300 - 02/05/08 05:56 AM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: JKogas]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Another component that I think is neglected in the CM style stuff is the effectiveness of hand fighting and the ability to control an opponents structure via wrist, tricep and bicep tie ups as you enter in the clinch. Spending all your time sparring with big gloves on I think can breed a false sense of security as to how vulnerable you can be when you punch for it to be latched onto and then pummelled in on. One thing I did like on the CM stuff was the squaring off of the shoulders more than a more traditional boxing/kick boxing style stance and utilising a twist of the waist against the hips. A squarer stance allows for better lateral movement (great for footwork - both offensive and defensive) IMO and brings the right hand more forward. A lot of boxers I've trained with often use their left (or right for southies) as the working hand and the right back reserved mainly for dropping bombs with occasional parrying. Squaring the shoulders and hips off more brings the back hand into play to allow to be a working hand...both offensively and defensively.
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#369301 - 02/05/08 07:29 AM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: Gavin]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Another component that I think is neglected in the CM style stuff is the effectiveness of hand fighting and the ability to control an opponents structure via wrist, tricep and bicep tie ups as you enter in the clinch.





Could not agree more on the importance for hand fighting, etc. Having actually trained with Rodney, I can say that they do work their grappling more than they let on when "in house", although it isn't shown as much in his material. Part of the reason for that was because they had other coaches who were putting that stuff out when he belonged to his former organization.

I agree and think that hand fighting and pummeling is very important and worth spending a lot of time doing on their own (with and without strikes; just wrestling in the clinch).

To me, that's where a lot of real "trapping" occurs. How useful is hand fighting to self-defense?! Indispensable in my eyes.


Quote:


Spending all your time sparring with big gloves on I think can breed a false sense of security as to how vulnerable you can be when you punch for it to be latched onto and then pummelled in on.





I agree again and this is why I feel that if people aren't training with the smaller MMA gloves these days, they are missing something. I think boxing gloves too are important as well for the ability to go harder with more safety, but you definitely can't neglect the grappling aspect in your training.

I also agree that you have to be more squared on. Of course this means you have to have a good understanding of distance and clinch control.

When I mentioned that I use the RAT structure for my defense, I should clarify myself. I use that from the long range and in its essence, is really not that different at all from the CM structure. I probably should have been more careful with my choice of words.

However, the similarities between the CM structure and the high outside structure from the long range used by Voo and Crew are dramatic. CM without gloves (the modifications for MMA and street) is practically the same thing. The hands are higher and you use your elbows for defense (destructions) a lot.

I see no discernible difference between the two. I have to still pull my stomach in, roll my shoulders forward and change my level slightly. All practically the same thing. Its as if the two structures are one and the same.

The individuals behind these approaches may not have meant for that to happen or realize the similarities. But, having done both in training, I am beginning to see certain common points where they coalesce.

I think the one thing that Rodney does that perhaps a lot of PFS guys didn't (for a long time) was to emphasize more aliveness and harder striking during training.

After having done that myself using both the bigger boxing gloves as well as MMA gloves, I have seen the beauty of Vunak's approach as it applies to fighting.

One thing I've seen is that almost any approach can work providing that you "functionalize" it with aliveness.

One thing you begin to see after awhile is that with aliveness, there truly are no false stylistic borders. You realize that there is truly only "one style" in the grand scheme of things and, that there are things that work for you now, and things that might at some later point.

Mo' later.





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#369302 - 07/26/08 09:22 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: JKogas]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Jkogas

If you don't mind. I'd like to jump around to different parts of the RAT beginning with what you prefer to call Resolution. Once you've reached the point of trapping range, you literally have a plethora of techniques you can apply. Vu however, prefers to apply the most simplistic, hard hitting of tools(HKE's). Which is part of his street fighter approach vs martial artist. Easier for non MAist to remember and train.

Its from trapping that you really begin to explore other avenues from different styles in order to expand on your art? Meaning this is where u can employ, your judo sweeps, wrestling take downs, tai chi throws, and bjj submissions. Dealing with an infinite amount of outcomes. Not to say that the Entry and Pressure portion of the RAT is standardized because as you know it isn't set in stone. As you stated that straight blast is not the only way to create pressure.Assuming I am on the right track so far.

My question then is, how crucial do you consider the thumbing on the eyes prior to any clinch?

As for me I can only come up with one conclusion after watching so many MMA fights, and how ineffective the clinch can be w/o attacking the eyes, throat, groin, or shins. Borrowing from that small moment in time similar to the way you make your initial Entry. I don't see the clinch being has successful if one of these critical areas aren't attack first.

P.S.

As a reminder of my background in PFS, I have never trained with an instructor, all of my knowledge have been though article stacks, and instructional DVD's. I have around 35 Vunak DVD's all are consistent with his main stream approach to street fighting. I practice with a small group of friends most are like myself former TKD practitioners.

Jkogas, I still have questions regarding your bjj and how much of the art you have implemented into your system.

Your thoughts on Kino Mutai the uninterrupted art of biting and eye gouging, and Vu's fusion of it with bjj.

more questions to come about CM, there are Rodney King dvd's available to me, however, I have just been so overwhelmed with Vu's material and excited by it, that I don't wanna add more to my plate.

I hope your still around to help enlighten me with this stuff. I really appreciate it.

-Tek
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#369303 - 07/27/08 11:02 AM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: TeK9]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Jkogas

If you don't mind. I'd like to jump around to different parts of the RAT beginning with what you prefer to call Resolution. Once you've reached the point of trapping range, you literally have a plethora of techniques you can apply. Vu however, prefers to apply the most simplistic, hard hitting of tools(HKE's). Which is part of his street fighter approach vs martial artist. Easier for non MAist to remember and train.





Resolution or “termination”....it all means essentially the same thing. We realize that it's all semantics, yet you know how the power of words are...

Anyway, I understand and appreciate Vu's philosophy of using the HKE's. I disagree with a couple of ways they do it and I also don't believe that they are necessarily easy to train or remember (not arguing your point, arguing his). I think its tougher than most folks realize. But, onto the rest of your post....

Mostly it isn't a matter of the tools themselves not being worthwhile or “effective”, for me its a matter of how you train them. That's what is more important in my eyes. This is the area where I have some disagreement with the PFS approach.

Quote:


Its from trapping that you really begin to explore other avenues from different styles in order to expand on your art? Meaning this is where u can employ, your judo sweeps, wrestling take downs, tai chi throws, and bjj submissions. Dealing with an infinite amount of outcomes. Not to say that the Entry and Pressure portion of the RAT is standardized because as you know it isn't set in stone. As you stated that straight blast is not the only way to create pressure. Assuming I am on the right track so far.





Trapping is just what I refer to as the clinch. Again, semantics really. We call this the “Dirty Boxing” range. It's essentially the same thing; working the neck-tie. There are two core clinch types; the neck-tie as well as the body clinch (the under-hook, over-hook and the over-under) But we can discuss these later.


Quote:

My question then is, how crucial do you consider the thumbing on the eyes prior to any clinch?





I think the whole eye-attack thing is over-emphasized for the most part really. I would place a higher priority on obtaining position, and transitioning from one position to another. I believe that is far more important than a specific attack. Its like in BJJ where position before submission (attack) is prioritized. The same should be true of the clinch.

And while I realize that the idea is to thumb the eyes as you move into position, I believe the attack isn't all its cracked up to be, and in some cases only energizes your opponent to fight you back harder! This is a very real occurrence and people rarely give this any consideration.

The reason I think the attack is over-valued is because in a real fight, adrenaline is pumping. When you're in a position to hit such an attack, an opponent who's adrenaline is pumping isn't going to react to the eye gouge in any significant way. The time to hit the eye gouge or eye jab is BEFORE the attack has begun and before the adrenaline is pumping. That's my viewpoint. Before the fight, great. During the fight, not so great. Of course, we're only discussing fighting right now, not actually doing it. There are always going to be exceptions to the rule.

The idea in a fight is to take the will to fight from your opponent. In theory, you don't beat a man, you beat his will. Its just that if your opponent's skill is greater, you'll never test his will. If your skill is greater, he won't be able test your's. Thus to hit an eye gouge on a superior opponent just means that the retribution will be even greater for such an act, lol. Doing so on an inferior opponent is just overkill.

However, if you're clearly dominant in fighting, particularly with respect to position, covering the face and pressure over the eye socket (like you're pretending that you're going to gouge into the eye) can make a guy quit sometimes. I've seen it happen. That's a story for another time.


Quote:


As for me I can only come up with one conclusion after watching so many MMA fights, and how ineffective the clinch can be w/o attacking the eyes, throat, groin, or shins. Borrowing from that small moment in time similar to the way you make your initial Entry. I don't see the clinch being has successful if one of these critical areas aren't attacked first.





To answer this, I will say that I work the clinch all the time and manage to dominate it without having to attack any of those areas first (Eyes, throat, groin or shins. In fact, you should be able to work for dominant position without having to hit one of those attacks if for nothing other than to make it easier when you DO execute those said attacks. This should constitute the bulk of your clinch training. Learn to pummel. Work hand fighting, body pummeling, neck pummeling, etc. Add those things into your training because doing so will only facilitate these attacks.)

The reason for this, is because I train the clinch as a delivery system drawing from muay Thai and Greco-Roman wrestling. Greco-Roman is the missing link in most people's clinch games. Without that, there will be a rather large hole within the skill-sets of most people. From this practice, skill in positional control is developed. This is the thing that allows you to dominate the clinch positionally. Once you dominate positionally, you can then attack with whatever you want to, HKE, or whatever. Not only that, but you'll do so with even greater ability than without such training.

I don't know if this answers your question, but so long as the discussion continues, I'm sure we'll make some inroads into the topic.


Quote:

P.S.
As a reminder of my background in PFS, I have never trained with an instructor, all of my knowledge have been though article stacks, and instructional DVD's. I have around 35 Vunak DVD's all are consistent with his main stream approach to street fighting. I practice with a small group of friends most are like myself former TKD practitioners.





Thats ok, but I am going to give you a recommendation that will take your skill to another level (and we all want to improve don't we?). You and your partners always want to get better and better, right? So what you do is now (if you haven't done so already, that is) begin to develop what I refer to as the core delivery systems. They are; the free movement range (aka, “stand-up), clinch and the ground. Now you may already understand the concept of the “ranges”. But I'm asking that you look at them in another light. Your objective should be to practice and develop the fundamental skills of each delivery system. Those are the foundation platforms from which everything is built. That is in itself, another discussion. But I'm giving you the best advice that I can, coming from your school of thought. Trust me on this, you'll appreciate having done so.

Quote:


Jkogas, I still have questions regarding your bjj and how much of the art you have implemented into your system.




First of all, call me John.

To answer this, BJJ is the primary art for the ground delivery system (again, you need all three in your game in order to be well-rounded and adaptable). Thus BJJ is pretty important to say the very least. However that doesn't mean you have to grapple in every fight you're involved in. It just means that should the fight hit the grapple, you're not in unfamiliar territory....which is pretty important for any astute JKD man I'd say


Quote:


Your thoughts on Kino Mutai the uninterrupted art of biting and eye gouging, and Vu's fusion of it with bjj.





Honestly, I don't fool with it. I see little to no reason for biting and eye gouging. I would see more of a need to having practical skill and grappling ability than an ability to bite. Biting is easy. I practice it at least on three separate occasions per day .

However, skill in delivery systems doesn't always come naturally. This goes back to what I said earlier about how you don't beat man, you beat his will. Attacks by and of themselves won't do this, otherwise any local “billy” who understood the lead jab, would be able to beat a world-class boxer. That isn't the case because of the disparity in skill. In other words, the boxer's will wouldn't get tested.

So it goes that if you can grapple, there'd be no NEED to bite. Besides biting just reminds your opponent of what he can do to YOU. Yes, I do understand the positioning involved in kino mutai, but if you have skill in BJJ, you can probably sweep and hit submissions as well. To be perfectly honest, I'd rather hit a sweep and be on top than pin myself underneath someone just so that I could bite him uninterruptedly. Give me a top position and a good ground & pound versus biting any day; for a variety of reasons.

But regardless of my opinion, I think the discussion is tremendously important both for ourselves as well as any other PFS folks as well as anyone interested in self-preservation. The deeper and longer you extend these conversations, the better.


Quote:

more questions to come about CM, there are Rodney King dvd's available to me, however, I have just been so overwhelmed with Vu's material and excited by it, that I don't wanna add more to my plate.

I hope your still around to help enlighten me with this stuff. I really appreciate it.

-Tek





Anytime bro. I try to help wherever I can. I am by no means, the be all, end all authority on martial arts. But I've certainly been down those roads (I am an instructor in the PFS system although I too am not currently listed on Vu's site). I'm at a different place now yet is ultimately all the same. That's hard to explain but I'll try over the course of later discussions.


-John

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#369304 - 07/28/08 05:58 AM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: JKogas]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
bump

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#369305 - 07/29/08 11:02 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: JKogas]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
eye gouge prior to the clinch??

personally, I wouldnt see this attack working too well. John mentioned earlier about eye jabs and flicks. Its just plain hard to hit the eye period (its a small target) and also your opponent can still get hit in the eye and be in the game. So, it doesnt give you much of an advantage. Just go for the stiff jab.

If anything I would say a groin kick is the best option before a clinch. And to me, in self defense apps, a groin kick should be put in to most of your combos. Most of the time its an open area, so why not? And it'll give you a good advantage over the guy, allowing you to dominate the clinch.

And for BJJ..I think its good to know, because we're talking about ground fighting here. However, I always keep in my that rolling around on the ground is something that I do not want to happen if I get into a fight. I'd much rather pin the guy down and start my ground & pound game. So I find the positioning game a lot more informative than the actual submissions.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#369306 - 07/29/08 11:28 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: IExcalibui2]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
In terms of the eye gouge here, what happens is that during the tie up as you go for the neck tie, you rake the eyes with the thumb on the way in. It's kind of on the way in as you go, so its like a "why not stop a moment and blind the guy on the way in", kind of thing.

As a tactic goes, it's "ok". You could use it to get a reaction, etc. But I'm still not all that sold on it. I'd rather go straight into dirty boxing and knees.

As far as groin kicks go, I don't like taking my feet off the ground for anything. If you're a great kicker, fine, if that's your thing. Me, no way do I want my feet off the ground a second (that said, I do work savate kicking).

As for BJJ, I am pretty much in agreement with IExcalibui2. In a fight, I'm not going for submissions. I'm going to keep position and strike. It's a more conservative and thus safer approach. Many times when you go for a submission on top, you sacrifice good position to do so. That means you're screwed if you don't sink it.

Chokes are another thing. If there was an opportunity to hit a choke I could see going for that.

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#369307 - 07/29/08 11:48 PM Re: PFS: RAT system [Re: JKogas]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
You can just call me Arthur..I've been here long enough I guess? hahah (its only been 2 years but its felt so much longer than that...)

I mean, the eye gouge is "on the way" but 1) it doesn't sound like your motive is to take the guy's eye out, you're going for a clinch. So doesnt sound like you're committed to really jam that thumb to the back of the socket. Without that kind of mentality, just don't do it. 2) its still a small target to hit even if its along the way. Now blinding BOTH eyes would be a different story in my opinion....Maybe trying to rip the guy's ear off might be nice though?

John, I don't kick too often either. Most of my training is devoted to my hands (southern Kungfu right?) and I only end up using kicks if I tend to kickbox with another person. I don't like it because we're hitting each other like we're looking for points but I don't train for sport so I'm hardly in that arena where we're just tagging each other.

That said, I keep my kicks low and something like a groin kick appeals to me just because if you land the hit the pay out is 10x more effort than you put in. Other than that theres not much kicking.

oh Chokes are lovely. I would definitely go for a choke, as long as I'm not on the ground or in a vulnerable position. So if I was to choke someone out, I'd be on my feet. Bent over or standing straight, I'll be on my feet.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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