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#368500 - 11/13/07 12:26 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: BrianS]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Duh Butterflypalm! You were supposed to look at it and chuckle and then go on!!! Sheesh homeskillet!! You weren't supposed to overanalyze it and make me feel like a heeeeeelllll!!!





As you might have gueesed by now, I don't read minds, though I do read the odd anatomy material published by Playboy Magazine. My only complaint is the overwhelming emphasis on the female anatomy. Perhaps Wristtwister might know some other material in his vast store of anatomy related material that are male oriented, or a relevant Website?

Eyrie,

Quote:

I'll just say, too much masturbation *could* be bad for your musculo-tendonous system




I see you are improving; at least you didn't say hairs will start to grow on the palms of the hands, as this will surely open up yourself for an attack from "someone" who might insist on laboratory-quality evidence/data.

Please don't let this off-topic diversion stop the present train of thought and derail a very interesting discussion, most of it anyway.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#368501 - 11/13/07 12:53 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

the original "dim mak" was an attack to the circulatory system. Causing embolisms, and hematomas "back in the day" were serious injuries, and blood clots caused deaths that looked like heart attacks. What doesn't get advertised much is that there were also some dim mak weapons, such as bamboo needles used to cause infections, etc. ... directly affecting , (you guessed it) the circulatory system.



Why do you think the conceptual frameworks changed over the centuries from general notions of pathways, to circulatory system, to meridian system to energy flow ?


looking at it from the view of trend over the centuries - if you think of it as two separate but dependant currents of change, it roughly breaks into 1. the application/observation along with 2. the explaination/theory of that observation.


the further back in time, the more practical the application (attacking the blood lines), and the more spiritual explaination ('life force'). as you move forward to present time, you have a more spiritual application ('affecting ones life force') with an increacing western-science explaination ('attacking the nerve centers').


here's the trippy part: when I mentally plotted these 2 trends in my head, the resulting image was a flattened yin-yang symbol....which is the symbol for infinity.

whoa...am I seeing 'the matrix' ? or am I going blind from too much mental flogging? lol


(don't answer that )

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#368502 - 11/13/07 01:03 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: ButterflyPalm]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

As you might have gueesed by now, I don't read minds, though I do read the odd anatomy material published by Playboy Magazine. My only complaint is the overwhelming emphasis on the female anatomy. Perhaps Wristtwister might know some other material in his vast store of anatomy related material that are male oriented, or a relevant Website?


Uh.... you'd be wanting PlayGIRL or PlayGUY - NOT PlayBOY...

Quote:

I see you are improving; at least you didn't say hairs will start to grow on the palms of the hands, as this will surely open up yourself for an attack from "someone" who might insist on laboratory-quality evidence/data.


If that were the case, it could be the answer to male-patterned baldness too!

The most you would get is weak legs and RSI in the wrist... and I would recommend some soothing gel... for the chaffing. Tiger Balm usually stops the problem from recurring... usually with rather dramatic results.

But I digress....

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#368503 - 11/13/07 04:14 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:


Why do you think the conceptual frameworks changed over the centuries from general notions of pathways, to circulatory system, to meridian system to energy flow ?




The reason for the ongoing changes in the framework is, IMO, due to the natural evolution of the human condition and the environment and lifestyle in which it passes through in daily life. Our lives today are far different from that of our peers of 200 years ago. Many work when they should be sleeping. Many work too hard. Many are stressed. We have switched from natural foods to highly refined mass produced rubbish. The way we run the engine that is the human body has change beyond recognition, as has the fuel that we stick in it to run it. Any framework you use will have to move with the times to be flexible enough to keep with the needs and conditions presented by the patient. Western medicine changes every 5 minutes, why wouldn't eastern do the same?

Quote from Ed in the other page:

Quote:



one of the biggest issues I have with meridian-based theory, is it's lack of imperical external effect. This is illustrated by accupunture studies which show that a skilled accupuncturists vs. a person randomly placing needles but posing as an expert, in double blind tests, demonstrate near equal 'results' in patient feedback.

One study doesn't say much, but study after study is pretty damning against meridian theory in general.





Study after study? Are we hamming this point up matey? A quick google turned this up. A summary of various clinical trials done using control groups in various studies...some mixed findings, but an interesting read neither the less:

http://www.acupunctureinmedicine.org.uk/servearticle.php?artid=549

I've not read a lot of Acupuncture research, but I've skimmed through a few journals from the area and have never seen a study where unskilled people were allowed to randomly stick needles in people. That sort of study would have serious ethical considerations for an acupuncturist I would imagine.

Quote:

here's the trippy part: when I mentally plotted these 2 trends in my head, the resulting image was a flattened yin-yang symbol....which is the symbol for infinity.





I think we'll only see more and more synthesis of world thinking. MWM is creating problems as quickly as it is solving, but that is the nature of evolution and need creates necessity. There is far more to OM than placebo, can I prove it using statistic or studies? Not a chance at the moment...as I said previously its the result that interests me first and this year I've put in well over a 100 hours of treatments and can say without a doubt that it does make a difference, and a hell of a difference. If anyone could do what I do by randomly poking and prodding why are so many people walking round and suffering from chronic conditions that could be quite easily rectified using alternative medicine?

As I said before I love the western stuff, and go into a lot more detail than I'll ever be able to post on a forum to understand the inner workings, but at the end of the day its consistent results that sway it for me. Whether anyone believes me on the forum is irrelevant, its the people who keep coming through the door that count for me.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#368504 - 11/13/07 05:21 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I'm sure you've been over the same ground a few times Gav. It isn't the East-West dichotomy that is the issue here. It's reconciling the difference between reductionism and wholism.

I think, at the end of the day, there are thinkers, doers and tyre-kickers. The tyre-kickers want more data before they will be convinced, and then some more data for good measure. Analysis is a good thing, but lets not put the "anal" into "analysis"....

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#368505 - 11/13/07 05:39 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Totally agree with you mate. Just found this film on WoMA.tv, it's a full shiatsu treatment and well worth watching. His style, explanations and everything are so similar to my thoughts and the way my Shatisu is developing its scary. Well worth watching:

http://woma.tv/woma/videos/show/206/in/channel/4953
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#368506 - 11/13/07 08:14 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Grady -

Quote:

You're welcome to be a sarcastic jackass if you wish. I wasn't condescending to you in what I said, I was actually trying to help you, and put into perspective the information that had already been given.




Indeed. I realize now that you probably did not mean to be intentionally consdescending. My sarcasm was more biting than it should have been.


Quote:

You just automatically dismissed any answers that were given, or attributed them as attacks, and didn't make any effort to relay any information in the other direction, so don't jump me about your "pea sized brain". That's your problem, not mine. Normally, people who ask for help don't bite the people who respond to help them, but not so in this discussion...




I did automatically dismiss vague, insulting tripe, as I have always done. Helpful answers I appreciate and respect.


Eyrie -


Quote:

Rather than taking an argumentative stance and trying to disprove something and discredit someone, on a topic that you obviously know nothing about, and are not really interested in knowing.




Quote:

The comment was directed at people who have shown themselves to consistently twist the facts, just to argue for argument's sake. Perhaps you could learn to be a little less conceited to think that I was referring to you specifically.




Note that you used the word YOU in a direct response to ME. Logical to conclude that YOU were referring to ME in that context. Glad to know that you guys haven't taken any of this personal. Or not.

porcine mooks jackass conceited slow-learners spoon-fed keyboard-masters

Have a nice day.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#368507 - 11/13/07 09:01 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I'm sure you could find a bunch of studies which coincidently support what they are selling for a living. One thing that is consistant, is people defending their investments and salary.


but what's the worst that can happen from the Meridian Industry? placebo and a relaxing massage? not bad at all. on par with a naive serviceman falling in love when he hears 'me love you long time, you my numbah one boom-boom' in a southeast Asian brothel during shore leave. pleasantly deceptive to him perhaps, but hardly a wide-spread epidemic.


It's not like the meridian-based market is causing oil spills, poison-coated toys, depopulating cultures with Dim Mak-related deaths or anything.

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#368508 - 11/13/07 09:20 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

I'm sure you could find a bunch of studies which coincidently support what they are selling for a living. One thing that is consistant, is people defending their investments and salary.




That's the point I was trying to make Ed. Everyone has something to defend. Western Medicine is fighting within its ranks. I'd actually be far more skeptical of a drug company saying our research show that Company X is producing pills that don't work and Company X would then produce a study to counter that study and prove that their pills are the bestest greatest pills ever made. Three years down the line we find out that X's pills actually cause Liver failure.

I was just addressing your rather sweeping about "study after study" and that I would be very interested in seeing a study were legit acupuncturists knowingly took part in a study where unqualified people randomly needled people. The Acupuncturists I know actually have an extremely stringent regulations imposed on them and even a minor infraction will cause them to be stripped of their practice license.

Quote:

but what's the worst that can happen from the Meridian Industry? placebo and a relaxing massage? not bad at all. on par with a naive serviceman falling in love when he hears 'me love you long time, you my numbah one boom-boom' in a southeast Asian brothel during shore leave. pleasantly deceptive to him perhaps, but hardly a wide-spread epidemic.




This is kind of the conclusion I've come to. I get results doing what I do. If its Chi doing the work or subtle physiological change going on is irrelevant really, people go away happier and feeling better than when they came in. With this in mind, at the very worst I'm going to be making a living make peoples lives happier. I can live with that.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

Top
#368509 - 11/13/07 09:45 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
can I give the tactical answer of: "I'm not going to do your research for you"? j/k I'm not like that. I don't pull stuff out of my butt, then tell you to fend for yourself.

here is a pathway for further research in past case studies:
http://skepdic.com/acupunc.html
Quote:


researchers can use the Von Korff Chronic Pain Grade Scale questionnaire and the back-specific Hanover Functional Ability Questionnaire (for back pain studies) to measure changes in back pain after various kinds of treatment. For example, a randomized, blinded study involving over 1,100 subjects with chronic back pain were given different treatments and evaluated after six months using both the Von Korff and the Hanover instruments. The study compared treatment by (1) acupuncture using traditional acupuncture points and methods, (2) acupuncture that used non-traditional points and methods (the needles weren't inserted as deeply or twirled as in traditional acupuncture, and (3) treatment involving drugs, exercise, and physical therapy. About twice as many in the groups stuck with needles responded to the treatment as in the non-needle group. It did not matter whether they were stuck in traditional points using traditional methods or in non-standard points using non-traditional methods. About 45% responded in these groups compared to about 25% in the group treated with drugs, exercise, and physical therapy. According to the BBC:

The researchers, from the Ruhr University Bochum, say their findings suggest that the body may react positively to any thin needle [censored] - or that acupuncture may simply trigger a placebo effect.*

The results of this and another study that found no difference in response from those getting so-called verum (or "true") acupuncture and so-called minimal (or "sham") provide evidence against the accuracy of the traditional Chinese meridians map. It doesn't seem to matter where you stick the needles or whether you stick them in deeply or twirl them. But those with back pain who get stuck with needles respond at a significantly higher rate to the treatment than those who do not get needled. The concept of chi seems superfluous in this context.


That the effect is likely a placebo effect is supported by the results of another recent study done at Linköping University in Sweden involving "215 patients with various types of cancer who got either active acupuncture or a sham treatment that involved an identical looking and feeling needle that retracted into the handle on contact with the skin."* This method prevents the patients from knowing whether they've actually been stuck with a needle. The patients were given conventional radiotherapy during the trials. Many believers in acupuncture think it is effective in relieving nausea. Both the verum and the sham groups believed the treatment had been invasive and effective in reducing nausea: "68 percent of patients who got the acupuncture experienced nausea for an average of 19 days during radiotherapy and 61 percent of the patients who got the sham treatment suffered nausea for an average of 17 days....Vomiting was experienced by 24 percent of the patients getting acupuncture and 28 percent of patients receiving the sham treatment....Fifty-eight of the patients received chemotherapy in combination with radiotherapy. Among them, 82 percent of those in the acupuncture group developed nausea, compared with 80 percent of those treated with the sham needles....66 percent of patients who got acupuncture and 71 percent who got the sham treatment said they would be highly interested in having acupuncture again if it turned out they needed another course of radiotherapy." The differences between the two groups are not statistically significant. These results strongly suggest that acupuncture provides a placebo effect.


Some of the acupuncture studies supported by the Office of Alternative Medicine at the National Institutes of Health try to mimic traditional control group studies, but no control study will reveal if chi was unblocked or if yin and yang are in or out of harmony.





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