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#368550 - 11/15/07 10:41 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
which part was perceived as belittling? this part?
Quote:

You seem wrapped up in minutia and never see the whole picture of anything. I'm surprised you didn't pull out your study by the fraud police on acupuncture again (which is 17 years old) and wave it like the sword of Gideon...


just so I am self-aware to avoid reading people's posts as hostile.


on topic: aren't the meridian and points charts the central foundation in Dim Mak training? so wouldn't it be reasonable to question where those charts come from and on what basis did they change? Or is that is that considered hostile to ask?
also, if we use the logic that the old charts were purposely made vague, then how can we use the argument that since the human body hasn't changed, then the charts must still be valid. can you have accurate vagueness?

last point everyone loves to avoid is the history of TCM:
http://www.traditionalstudies.org/website/Chinese%20Medicine%20Evolution.html


compare that history with any TCM website which are advertising for clientel prospects, and you see why they always choose to glaze over the fact that TCM is a modern invention and a far cry from the older practices.

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#368551 - 11/15/07 11:29 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:


last point everyone loves to avoid is the history of TCM:




This is belittling mate, or at can be least perceived as. This is like saying, "You're all avoiding the issue.." but in a condescending manner. In the UK we from the TV you guys ship over we get a picture of the typical "Valley Girl" who oozes sarcasm, "You know, like, you guys, like, soooooo looooooove to avoid discussing TCM history!". Sometimes you can come across as being a "Fundamentalist Skeptic".

I for one haven't avoided TCM history, in fact I think I mention I use the terms Oriental Medicine, as do many fellow practitioners. And the book that is the Bible of the OM student and required reading on my shiatsu course and the acupuncture courses I've read about doesn't use the term TCM and regularly references the "classics" throughout the entire book. In fact the only people I regular know who use the term "TCM" are martial artists! Go figure!

Here's the book BTW. If you really have an interest in learning OM this is the book for you:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Foundations-Chin...3795&sr=1-1
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#368552 - 11/15/07 03:31 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
despite what your misinformed stereotype images are of Americans, I take it you don't have an answer to the serious questions and are just distracting?


Quote:


on topic: aren't the meridian and points charts the central foundation in Dim Mak training? so wouldn't it be reasonable to question where those charts come from and on what basis did they change? Or is that is that considered hostile to ask?
also, if we use the logic that the old charts were purposely made vague, then how can we use the argument that since the human body hasn't changed, then the charts must still be valid. can you have accurate vagueness?




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#368553 - 11/15/07 05:33 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Guess not Ed.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#368554 - 11/15/07 05:40 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

last point everyone loves to avoid is the history of TCM:
http://www.traditionalstudies.org/website/Chinese%20Medicine%20Evolution.html





I thought these sections quite telling:

Quote:

Tragically, traditional theories that did not fit the new model or did not meet with Communist approval were removed from the textbooks and curriculum, their clinical application and understanding at risk of being lost forever.




Quote:

Unfortunately, in spite of his efforts, the persons in the positions of authority to implement the project were the very doctors convinced of the superiority of a modern based medicine. As a result, their documentation efforts were so skewed in this manner that traditional practitioners found themselves being patronized by young science-based researchers. Angered by this treatment and still living in fear from the Cultural Revolution, the practitioners offered them little real information. In turn, the young researchers took this as proof that traditional medicine had little to offer the theoretical foundation of modern Chinese medicine.




Quote:

In turn, the old doctors found that these students were seeking more effective techniques to apply immediately rather than applying themselves to the discipline of learning traditional perspectives on treatment that requires time, attention and diligence.




Quote:

Suspicious of the motives of students and institutions who approach them in these money focused times, the doctors are wary of trying to pass on their experience during their last years.




And I think you missed the real thrust of the article here:
Quote:

Those still alive will most likely be too old or infirm to actively record their clinical skills. As a part of this new endeavor, ATS is expanding the visibility of this work so that the voices of this last generation can help shape the Western understanding of traditional medicine as it becomes accepted into the current medical paradigm of integrative medicine.




It's people like you, like the Nationalist Movement, people who have a power-based and control agenda to push, in order to silence any opposition to their half-baked theories.

I think this conversation is over...


Edited by eyrie (11/15/07 05:41 PM)

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#368555 - 11/15/07 06:21 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ed,
my answer was neither misleading or inaccurate regarding the charts. Yes, they are accurate... yes, they are misleading purposely to disguise much of the information.

Quote:

if we use the logic that the old charts were purposely made vague, then how can we use the argument that since the human body hasn't changed, then the charts must still be valid. can you have accurate vagueness?





I can give you tons of "accurate information" about something without revealing the secrets regarding it's use or how to actually make it functional. Lets' use Aikido for example... sankyo, the third control. If I taught you the "classic sankyo", you could do some things with it, and it would work every time... or I could teach you the advanced techniques which involve several other types of sankyo that are both excruciating and debilitating. Both kinds of technique use exactly the same information, they just apply it differently and the results are phenomenenally different. Shihonage is another example... done one way, it's a very effective throw... done another, it rips your shoulder out of the socket... same information, same technique, merely a change of angle in the application. Done "toward the spine", it's totally harmless and an effective throw... done at another angle, it's crippling... It's all hidden right out in plain sight.

What the charts never show, are the type of strike used at the points, the angle of the strike, and some other miscellaneous information that you would get from the teacher. There's no "home dim mak kit", just like there's no "home surgery kit". It's a matter of training and nuances in that training that make it effective.

You can learn a lot about the dim mak points by studying acupuncture, and by studying kyusho jitsu, but it's still not the primary art of dim mak. All that information is out there, hiding right out in plain sight for you, and being the "reader" that you are, you should pick it up and learn every bit of it.

Since we've been discussing this subject for so long, I'm curious to know if you question your karate teacher's validity of every technique like you do dim mak? If so, you must be a joy to teach... like a root canal, and if not, then why not? Are you only skeptical of things you haven't been taught, or do you apply the same basis of study to everything? Sometimes, the answer is "because my teacher taught it to me that way"...

I've studied half a dozen different styles of karate, and every one of them has its own method of punching. Goju has the high starting position, Shotokan starts at the hip... Isshin Ryu uses the vertical fist... all kinds of differences. I can't remember questioning any one of my teachers' instructions about the kind of punching they wanted me to do... only "how to do it" correctly in their style so I could learn their systems... and the reason they did things differently was to "fit their technique". Try doing a goju punch with a vertical fist and see how "unhandy" it is... it simply doesn't work with the high starting position. Dim mak information is also like that... just pounding on a point won't necessarily get the effect you expect. The strike has to be correct, on target, and at the right angle... Is it precise... you bet your a$$... is it dependable... I won't answer.

You've already accused Eyrie and me of "magical thinking", so just adding fuel to the fire won't accomplish anything. You've predetermined that it doesn't work, or that it's unreliable as a fighting system... so I won't try to change your mind again. Like the unreliablilty of acupuncture, you give this art no credibility... so why bother? You might want to think over the acupuncture idea though... or else set about changing the minds of several hundred million Chinese who are patients of it, or the 4000 doctors in this country that are now practicing it...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#368556 - 11/15/07 10:06 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
questioning outside of class is separate from training. I regard training as doing...not talking about it.

This forum or talking or reading or research, is not training. it's supplimental like weight lifting, stretching or meditation.

with that in mind, can we curb the attempts to make me look like a non-training intellectual. first, it doesn't add anything to the conversation and second it makes it look like avoidance of the questions.


yes, things can be hidden in plain sight. kata itself is a perfect example.

but it's not the same to look at points on an ancient crude hand drawing and deduct the precise points, angles and effect they intended. ...or perhaps at some level it is similar to kata interpretation, but somehow the leaps to conclusion seem much greater.

interesting. so Grady, in effect, you are saying Dim Mak is interpretive. and some interpretations are deemed 'better' than others. Thats a new angle to Dim Mak. usually, it's attempted to be passed off as an exact science.

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#368557 - 11/15/07 10:51 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Would I be correct in thinking that you not following a particular elemental sequence when setting these shots up, relying on multiply hits to score the desired results?




Gav...
the elemental striking used in kyusho jitsu is designed to use "cross meridian system shock" to cause injury or effect. Combinations of "fire and metal" points, or such combined "elements" to produce a result are more "teaching models" to hit the right spots than anything else.

The vibration of dim mak is applied in shocking the skeletal structure of the body, much like hitting a tuning fork to cause a harmonic note. It is done through the meridian point that is known to cause the "expected damage", which creates the need to be so accurate with the angles of attack to the points. Angling to the particular structure of the bones in the body can be difficult, but the kata that taught dim mak, were fighting movements which positioned you to make that particular strike accurately and almost without it being obvious what you were doing.

Somehow, these guys who are so hell-bent that this stuff doesn't work would rather flail at someone's arms and legs with random blocks and punches or kicks than to "have a plan" to get to the place where they could do real damage with little or no effort. They'll spend half a lifetime learning and practicing kata, but have no clue how to use it to turn empty hand fighting into its lethal outcomes... and will then turn around and argue that the art isn't lethal because they couldn't kill anybody with it.

The killing punches of karate were punches that snapped violently the last inch or so of travel, and were delivered in about 1/100th of a second. The vibration was caused by the "snap" action, and I wish I had a way of showing you what I'm talking about. Nishiyama Sensei made a tape about the International Karate Federation in which one of his students demonstrated the "snapping" punch... and that is the type of strike used in many of the dim mak techniques. They're pretty lethal just on their own, but adding the hitting point to the mix made them deadly.

The Chinese punching methods used a lot of "finger strikes" for more accuracy to the points, and were more readily dependent on "depth of penetration" to the points to get the job done. They weren't "vibration" punches, for the most part, and I've never fully understood how the "Chinese system" of open handed dim mak worked. I have my own ideas about it, but I don't have another 50 years to spend in a kung fu or tai chi school in order to get the clarification.

You asked good questions in this discussion, and deserve an answer without all the rhetoric from the peanut gallery.

One of the strikes used in dim mak is the "touching fingers palm heel strike" that is done by slightly curving the fingers and placing the fingertips slightly above the target. Keeping the hand and wrist completely relaxed, snap the palm "down and in" to strike the point in question with the base of the ulner bone. If you're familiar with it, it's used in "close-in" fighting, and used on lung points or over nerve plexes, is absolutely devastating. I won't go into details, but I think you can work it out from there without much help. It's also a "forward hand" technique, and if you learn to snap your hips with the application, you can absolutely knock somebody out the door with it.

If you're doing "cross-meridian" punches, you want this one to be the "finishing blow" for the set. It isn't "vibrating palm", but it's damn close...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#368558 - 11/16/07 12:33 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
You expect Mr. Ed Morris to "deduct" and "interpret" all on his own how DM really works from all this techno gibberish? You are so unkind.

They are people who wants to learn but were too shy to ask nicely.

BTW, just my 2 cents. (since that's all the tuition fees I can afford) Dim Mak (actually a cantonese pronunciation) is called "dim mak" and not "da" (hit/strike) "mak" (acu-points) is because you don't hit/strike it as you would with a normal EMA hit/strike, hence the difficulty in understanding or accepting how it could work and work in a real world combat situation.

"Dim" (which is the same word as in "dim sum", "to touch the heart" -- chinese lunch snacks) means to touch/point-contact lightly, but not a caress. It's like the word "sung" in IMA, which can only be translated as relax or being loose. It is about being physically relaxed and loose, but with full mental intent of your internal body processes while you are 'relaxing'. So if you're told to just relax by your master on your first few months of Tai Chi class, you may understandably come to the conclusion that what kind of sissy martial art is this; relax?

So now we have the word "dim" -- to touch/point-contact lightly. If this word is first fundamentally understood, then there is some starting point for serious discussion. Whether the "mak" actually exist or not, or it's all a figment of the collective imagination of generations of past masters down the centuries who would not in a sundry manner divulge any useful information, let alone actual training, unless it was to their closest relatives and in-door disciples. A pity really, as the art is slowly disappearing, and dying out, even in the land of it's birth.

Let's take karate, which is a straight forward combat art, with no "magic" attached (at least not that I am aware of) If it was not an accident of history back in the 1930s when some Okinawan masters decided to standardize the syllabus and disseminate it first to the Japanese and thence to the world as an act of post-war patriotic effort to gain some lost national pride, karate (and all the other Okinawan Te) would still be a native curiosity found on the few scattered islands of Okinawa and we'll have people on the Net discussing and perhaps dismissing how it is possible to break baseball bats and bricks etc. with bare hands.

I hope Wristtwister and others like him will live long and prosper so that some of the knowledge at least is preserved, even if it's just exist as an intellectual curiosity and for civilised discussions, because to trian it to a high degree these days is beyond the patience of most people, and also for the simple reason that the opportunity to test it in real combat, unlike the past lawless days, is hard to find.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#368559 - 11/16/07 01:38 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
yes, but I'm trying to figure out what exactly is preserved...

a system of point and meridian theory created in the 1960's for political reasons which is loosly based on the classical texts depicting crude drawings and ancient unsubstantiated suppositions - superimposed on top of modern anatomy in order to force-fit the justification of it's effectiveness ? is that what's being preserved?

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