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#368490 - 11/12/07 08:51 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
So - Matt is a blackbelt in sarcasm.

WT is a blackbelt in knowing without knowing and willing to share if you understand.

eyrie is a blackbelt in condescending non-information giving and question dodging.

_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#368491 - 11/12/07 09:37 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

In case you and Eyrie didn't know, I have been doing martial arts for over 23 years and weight-lifting for almost 25. I have a clue what the "musculotendonous system" is, and was really wondering what exactly Eyrie was "pointing" us at in that field. That answer was intentionally vague and purposefully (as Eyrie has admitted in other cases) lacking detail.


Let's be clear... my answer was directed at Ed, not you. And personally, I don't see what your tenure in the MAs have anything to do with this; it's irrelevant.

Grady has already answered this question. The meridians are a rough map (a working model if you like) which overlay a number of internal structures - nervous, lymphatic, circulatory and the musculo-tendinous systems. There is no direct correlation to a specific internal structure from a MWM viewpoint, because the meridian model is wholistic and treats it as being inter-related. The musculo-tendinous system is probably the closest you will get to mapping the meridians - which by the way, isn't really a line on the body surface, more like an series of semi-connected "channels" internally.

These channels are made up of a mesh-like webbing of connective tissues that bear no resemblance of any sort of tube like structure. IOW, the word "channels" is really a word used to convey an idea, rather than a physical description of an actual entity.

Some of these channels connect internally to other channels via the connective tissue and fascia layers, and to the viscera. So, affecting any access points (e.g. acupuncture points, nerve points and "points" which don't exist), on the surface, can indirectly affect the internal organs. There is some research (albeit only from a neuro-physiological standpoint) that indicates affecting certain surface areas, which happen to coincide with acupuncture points (e.g. on the thoracic and abdominal areas), can affect the internal organs in that area.

An example of how this might extrapolate to a martial application is hitting LU5 towards the person's wrist. This causes the the body to lurch forward, BUT the head is thrown back, thereby exposing the neck. Logically, one might think that the body and head should both lurch forward as a result, so why does it get thrown back? It has to do with the musculo-tendinous connections, the golgi tendon organs and stretch reflex, and why a large part of IMA training is breathing and "standing" practice - in order to train and develop the strength of the musculo-tendinous system, how it works with and against gravity, and the ability to exercise fine level control of such involuntary reactions.

If striking a body part can affect the neuro-muscular response, why is it so hard to believe that extrapolating that to other internal bodily systems has the potential to cause similar, if not worse, functional responses?

The point I am trying to make is, this information is readily available from various on-line and off-line resources - if one can be bothered to do a little bit of research, analysis, thinking and extrapolation. Rather than taking an argumentative stance and trying to disprove something and discredit someone, on a topic that you obviously know nothing about, and are not really interested in knowing. If it's just argument for argument's sake, why would it be necessary for anyone to provide any information? You win... it's that's simple.

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#368492 - 11/12/07 10:03 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

I don't see what your tenure in the MAs have anything to do with this; it's irrelevant.




Not totally. My studies in both MA and weight-lifting have included a fair bit of anatomy, on topic for discussion of pressure points or chi-meridians. You may or may not know that my studies in AKK included some basic PP work involving solar plexus, brachial plexus, triple warmer, radial/ulnar nerves.......etc. I have never disputed that they exist or that they can be affected. My point of contention has been how reliably they could be used under pressure.

Quote:

If striking a body part can affect the neuro-muscular response, why is it so hard to believe that extrapolating that to other internal bodily systems has the potential to cause similar, if not worse, functional responses?




Not debating that point in particular. The delayed stuff? Not sure about that. But I have seen instant effects from some stuff in demos, and even in fights. But not reliably in fights. Even well-known points like the Solar Plexus are difficult to get under pressure. That is what I'm saying.

Quote:

The point I am trying to make is, this information is readily available from various on-line and off-line resources - if one can be bothered to do a little bit of research, analysis, thinking and extrapolation.




Fair enough, and I do honestly appreciate the detailed post you did above. You have given me enough direction to be able to "aim" my research much more efficiently. Just telling me to read an anatomy book is not really helpful without giving me a bit more to go on. Especially when I *have* read anatomy books before.

Quote:

Rather than taking an argumentative stance and trying to disprove something and discredit someone, on a topic that you obviously know nothing about, and are not really interested in knowing.




Ah, darn. You were really doing well up until there.

You have inaccurately described my goals, experience and interest. But don't worry. I am confident you can learn to not be so arrogant as to try to read my mind.

In all seriousness, thanks for the good post.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#368493 - 11/12/07 10:13 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
no matter the distraction, I'll stay on topic to see what happens.

btw, some sidenotes.

* "Dim Mak" does not translate to 'death touch' the literal translation is "artery press".

* In ancient Chinese medicine terminology, there was no distinction between the words 'artery' 'vessel' or 'nerve' ... "artery" in the ancient meaning, was simply a passageway.

* The word for 'blood' in Japanese, is 'Chi'. Whereas 'Ki' does not mean energy, it is closer to the meaning 'intent' or 'mindset'.



one of the biggest issues I have with meridian-based theory, is it's lack of imperical external effect. This is illustrated by accupunture studies which show that a skilled accupuncturists vs. a person randomly placing needles but posing as an expert, in double blind tests, demonstrate near equal 'results' in patient feedback.

One study doesn't say much, but study after study is pretty damning against meridian theory in general.

however...

lets face it, trama to some points on the body hurts more than others...and in particular, anyone iron-training their fingers and grip will be able to nearly poke a hole in you or grab your rib for instance...causing crippling pain.

but does that prove or is facilitated by meridian theory? not necessarily. we know how iron-training works. and we know points hurt more than others. someone who has trained just those two things (conditioning and targeting sensitive areas), would be able to provide for a very convincing demo.

after convincing the students, then the unsupportive baggage can be piled on. 'This point will cause death', 'this point will cause kidney failure in 24-hours', 'this point will cause the person to have diarreha on the next full moon', etc. Giving the student the feeling of receiving some ancient and secret knowledge larger than mundane reality (ie: 'special powers'), when all they really need is hard work and targeting areas that hurt....which also exists in other arts which have no superimposed notions of meridian theory.

boxers don't train to target a point on a meridian, they simply target the chin. with same results.

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#368494 - 11/12/07 10:34 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Eyrie, sorry for just hitting the last link...I'm pi$$ed...

Mattj-
Go to www.taichiworld.com find the "downloads" link, and when you go to the downloads page, download the Point location book and the Muscle and Meridian Chart. The information you want is there... read it... burn it... or wipe with it... I'm too busy to take time to read it to you... but I "want you to know" anything you need to know about Dim Mak points.

But the book only shows you half of the information. You have to know the acupuncture and kappo techniques to revive a victim and shortcut the organ damage. You want information, there's about 200 pages of it, readily available and free...tells you all the damaging effects of Dim Mak strikes... killing, paralyzing, sickening... whatever floats your boat.

If you want a "training regimen" for it, start by learning a point a day, and then it's corresponding set-up point or "star point" to open the meridian. I would suggest you do this with a qualified instructor who's also an acupuncturist, as you can cause all kinds of health problems just screwing around with "what you know".

In case you're confused by the terminology, a "cun" is the distance between the end of your finger and the crease in the first joint... just so you can judge the distances correctly.

Quote:

Again, how about you guys take a chance that my teeny-tiny pea-brain might just be able to orient itself in the face of yall's voluminous knowledge.




You're welcome to be a sarcastic jackass if you wish. I wasn't condescending to you in what I said, I was actually trying to help you, and put into perspective the information that had already been given. You just automatically dismissed any answers that were given, or attributed them as attacks, and didn't make any effort to relay any information in the other direction, so don't jump me about your "pea sized brain". That's your problem, not mine. Normally, people who ask for help don't bite the people who respond to help them, but not so in this discussion...

Come to think of it, I think I'll reserve my discussions from now on to the weather... there's always sunshine somewhere and it's always raining somewhere else... and you don't have to agree with what I tell you... you can make it up as you go along.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#368495 - 11/12/07 10:39 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Not totally. My studies in both MA and weight-lifting have included a fair bit of anatomy, on topic for discussion of pressure points or chi-meridians.


Let me rephrase... I don't think "how long" you have spent in MA is at all relevant to the discussion. Sure, "what" you studied (formally or otherwise) is certainly relevant...
Quote:

You may or may not know that my studies in AKK included some basic PP work involving solar plexus, brachial plexus, triple warmer, radial/ulnar nerves.......etc. I have never disputed that they exist or that they can be affected. My point of contention has been how reliably they could be used under pressure.


Funny... this hasn't been brought up till NOW. You brought up all sorts of other $h!t though...

Quote:

Not debating that point in particular. The delayed stuff? Not sure about that. But I have seen instant effects from some stuff in demos, and even in fights. But not reliably in fights. Even well-known points like the Solar Plexus are difficult to get under pressure. That is what I'm saying.


Why wouldn't the "delayed stuff" be even plausible? How long before the symptoms of an internal hematoma manifests itself? How about herniated muscle tissue? Before it becomes a problem? Minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks? Months? We're not talking about "black magic" - we're talking about a living, breathing organism and its ability to deal with physical trauma.

As for using this "under pressure", that's a function of skill - yours and theirs, and only represents a very small percentage of total fighting capability. I don't see how using it "under (any sort of) pressure" is at all relevant to how and why it works generally, when application is a function of ability, not of working knowledge.

Quote:

Especially when I *have* read anatomy books before.


I've read mine several times, and still find new things... and new directions.

Quote:

Ah, darn. You were really doing well up until there. ...You have inaccurately described my goals, experience and interest. But don't worry. I am confident you can learn to not be so arrogant as to try to read my mind.



The comment was directed at people who have shown themselves to consistently twist the facts, just to argue for argument's sake. Perhaps you could learn to be a little less conceited to think that I was referring to you specifically.

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#368496 - 11/12/07 11:14 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: BrianS]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

So - Matt is a blackbelt in sarcasm.

WT is a blackbelt in knowing without knowing and willing to share if you understand.

eyrie is a blackbelt in condescending non-information giving and question dodging.






This has NOTHING to do with the on-going "discussion", but my understanding, after more than a couple of decades in the MA, is that a black belt only signifies that a person has only mastered the basics (and in this sense beginners) and is just being given the road-map to do more research and thus hopefully gain higher levels of knowledge and skills.

Eyrie,

Quote:

eyrie is a blackbelt in condescending non-information giving and question dodging




Nah..., you are at most only a yellow belt with green tip. You have soooooo much more to learn. When you are ready for your BB testing, let me know and I'll be willing to offer (even if Ed disputes it) some winning tips.

So meanwhile, perhaps you might see your way to debunk your BB status and condescendingly provide some information or at least point me in the right direction for in-depth research into the theory and practice of "intellectual masturbation" Has it anything to do with the "musculotendonous system"?
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#368497 - 11/12/07 11:18 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: ButterflyPalm]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Duh Butterflypalm! You were supposed to look at it and chuckle and then go on!!! Sheesh homeskillet!! You weren't supposed to overanalyze it and make me feel like a heeeeeelllll!!!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#368498 - 11/12/07 11:34 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Why wouldn't the "delayed stuff" be even plausible? How long before the symptoms of an internal hematoma manifests itself? How about herniated muscle tissue? Before it becomes a problem? Minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks? Months? We're not talking about "black magic" - we're talking about a living, breathing organism and its ability to deal with physical trauma.




Bingo!
I really wonder how many of these mooks get deathly ill overnight? Injury, infections, organ damage can take weeks or months to manifest themselves, much less cause death or the need for surgery... but somehow, the deterioration of health caused by a trauma to a nerve center, blood vessel, or lymphatic node, etc. is somehow "mysterious"? We have people who die weeks after auto accidents all the time, whose sole injury was a blow to the chest where they hit the steering wheel... or where their head popped forward and struck their foreheads on the dashboard or front window... but a similar strike by a person attacking someone "wouldn't" cause that???

Ed finally got part of it right... the original "dim mak" was an attack to the circulatory system. Causing embolisms, and hematomas "back in the day" were serious injuries, and blood clots caused deaths that looked like heart attacks. What doesn't get advertised much is that there were also some dim mak weapons, such as bamboo needles used to cause infections, etc. ... directly affecting , (you guessed it) the circulatory system.

Now I may not have mentioned that more than 10 or 12 times in these discussions, but at least it was verified by "independent research" on Ed's part... I feel better now...

This really is the slow-learners class...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#368499 - 11/12/07 11:37 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: ButterflyPalm]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Eyrie,

Quote:

eyrie is a blackbelt in condescending non-information giving and question dodging




Nah..., you are at most only a yellow belt with green tip. You have soooooo much more to learn. When you are ready for your BB testing, let me know and I'll be willing to offer (even if Ed disputes it) some winning tips.

So meanwhile, perhaps you might see your way to debunk your BB status and condescendingly provide some information or at least point me in the right direction for in-depth research into the theory and practice of "intellectual masturbation" Has it anything to do with the "musculotendonous system"?


BP, you give me too much credit... yellow belt with green tip? More like white belt with no tip.

Look I don't profess to know anything. Sometimes I will throw out a little of what I think I *might* know and see if anyone at a much higher level can pick it up and point me in other directions or either affirm or deny if I am on the right track. I don't throw out stuff so that it can be ripped apart and scrutinized word-for-word literally, by people who love flogging dead horses.

There ya go... the Eyrie BB myth debunked. I don't engage in intellectual masturbation or masturbation of any sort (conserve the "jing" and all that old wives' rubbish you know). I'll just say, too much masturbation *could* be bad for your musculo-tendonous system. But hey, what do I know...???

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