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#368430 - 11/05/07 02:38 PM This is worth watching.
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
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#368431 - 11/06/07 06:07 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: BrianS]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Brian,
since chi doesn't exist...
and pressure points don't exist...
Dim Mak doesn't exist... and if it did, couldn't possibly work...

Like the flat earth society, "if you can't explain it, it doesn't exist"...

Just keep in mind... "beyond the edges of the earth, there be dragons..."



_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#368432 - 11/06/07 07:27 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Punching one of the guy's students... free
Getting punched by the young kid... free
Getting punched by the old guy... free
The look on Crudelli's face... priceless

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#368433 - 11/06/07 11:04 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
funny.

actually I believe everything in the segment as 100% accurate, realistic and non-deceptive or biased in any way. I think everyone should spend their money and time seeking out proper dim mak training, starting as soon as possible.

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#368434 - 11/07/07 10:55 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: BrianS]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drz-CMespEM

Explain....




Actors on a cheap kung fu movie?


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#368435 - 11/07/07 03:52 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: jude33]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Definately entertainment. It was on an entertainment show. No martial arts value.
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The older I get, the better I was!

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#368436 - 11/07/07 05:59 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
shadowkahn Offline
anti-stupid crusader

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 234
I'm not sayin' dim mak is legit but. . .

Quote:


and pressure points don't exist...




Spoken like a man who has never hit his funny bone.
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"Belt mean no need rope hold up pants" - Mr. Miyagi, RIP.

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#368437 - 11/08/07 06:57 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: shadowkahn]
Aeras Offline
Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 76
Loc: Colorado
Quote:

Spoken like a man who has never hit his funny bone.




Wow....that made me laugh so hard. Says it perfectly. I love how everyone thinks that a PP has to be something mystical or special. Do you train to hit an attacker’s “vital” areas? i.e. the soloplexes, the groin, the throat? Whether you call them by their PP names or not we all as martial artists try aim for certain spots because they hurt more than others. By the way, these are pressure points! Just makes me laugh when people go on big tirades about either the non-existence or the ineffectiveness of pressure points and then go train to hit their attacker in the soloplexes..oops I mean conception vessel 16...or wait do I mean the xiphoid process...or the "hit them here because it hurts and takes their breath away spot"...I Love it!

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#368438 - 11/08/07 08:13 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Aeras]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
The things you mentioned - solar plexus (NOT soloplexes... please!!), groin and throat are VITAL points. IMO, different to PRESSURE points.

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#368439 - 11/08/07 09:39 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Eyrie, glad you picked up on that... it's kind of like the idea that "kyusho jitsu" is taught today as "pressure points". When I started, "kyusho jitsu" meant "methods of hitting the body". It included pressure points, vital points, and yes... the ever-popular Dim Mak training to hit those "places that don't exist".

I have an Aikido student who gets a 1-hour "specialty" lesson from me on Wednesdays before Aikido class. I told him we would cover a couple of pressure points "to be used to effect movement" in case his Ki went on strike during an attack.

I got an "OH $***" every time I touched him when I taught him my brand of kyusho... I didn't effect any knockouts, but he felt "encouraged to follow my lead" when I executed the techniques, with one of the Aikido black belts sitting on the sidelines doing a belly-laugh all the way through the class.

She laughed at him and at the end of class told him "you ought to know better than to let Dr. Pain give you a treatment"... (She's a physical therapist).

"Understanding comes depending on which end of the punch you happen to be standing on"...

... shame on me...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#368440 - 11/08/07 10:52 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Hi Grady, can you explain the distinction between 'pressure points' and 'dim mak points' ?

thanks.

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#368441 - 11/09/07 06:35 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ed,
knowing how skeptical you are of the entire meridian system theory of TCM and DM, I'm sure I'll just be talking to myself, but here goes...

Vital Points... locations on the body where vital organs or "complete shutdown" of the body are accomplished... such as striking the throat, groin, solar plexus, eyes... The results are immediate, and catastrophic.

Pressure point... a place where a nerve "crosses a bone" or is relatively "exposed" and available to be used to "create a desired movement"... such as the nerves in the arm can be used to effect an arm lock or pin, or pressure can be applied to cause the person to lock their hip for a throw. In some instances, such as the anterior triangle, it is a "pressure release" point, where the pain from application causes the attacker to move away.

Dim Mak points are places in the body that cause a desired effect... be it causing the attacker to get sick on their stomach, dizzy, causing organ damage, or delayed death. They can be something as simple as striking an artery to cause an embolism, or as complicated as striking point combinations to cause an organ to fail. These points are usually done in combinations or "sets" which use a "set up point" and then a "striking point"... which might be done either "one at a time, or in combination". The strikes have to be at correct angles, and either done when the meridian is "open" or else use an "opening point" to cause it to be available.

That's about all I want to say... since pressure points don't exist, it's all a fairy tale anyway... so "sleep tight" and it'll be a better day tomorrow...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#368442 - 11/09/07 06:49 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I'll just simply add my vote that the vital points mentioned are in there in the domain of pressure points.
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#368443 - 11/09/07 09:35 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: BrianS]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
that's one of the worst episodes of MBKAM. that's the kind of crap that gives CMA a bad rap. }=(
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#368444 - 11/09/07 04:12 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: underdog]
Aeras Offline
Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 76
Loc: Colorado
Quote:

I'll just simply add my vote that the vital points mentioned are in there in the domain of pressure points.




Thanks for the support underdog.

These vital areas and the pressure points mentioned ARE the same thing by the way. Differing defintions in different places in the world. The REASON they are "vital areas" and "pressure points" are because of what they do to you physically. I don't want to waste our mutual time on a silly semantics argument. Don't assume that you know everything, please.

Let me say it like this: in my style they are the same and they even have fun little names.

Also, regarding the "soloplexes" error I could blame it on the end of a 12 hour shift after being on call for 24 hours straight, but I will not. I'll just say: way to go me the RN made an anatomy spelling error .

Maybe it is time I made use of the fact that I can re-read and edit my posts before posting them.

much love everybody...
_________________________
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies simply because they become fashions."- G.K. Chesterton

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#368445 - 11/09/07 06:30 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Aeras]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Being how there are many,many pressure points, a lot of them are bound to be in the domain of vital points.

I believe there is a difference between the two,but it's not worth arguing about.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#368446 - 11/09/07 07:08 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

that's one of the worst episodes of MBKAM. that's the kind of crap that gives CMA a bad rap. }=(





What are the things that give it a GOOD name?


The video however, Brian...you were joking, right?



-John

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#368447 - 11/09/07 07:14 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: BrianS]
Aeras Offline
Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 76
Loc: Colorado
Quote:

but it's not worth arguing about.




my point exactly...much love everybody.
_________________________
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies simply because they become fashions."- G.K. Chesterton

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#368448 - 11/09/07 07:53 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Aeras]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
OK Nomenclature. One should specify if there is confusion, what one is including when one says pressure points or when one makes a distinction. Why argue with that?
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#368449 - 11/09/07 11:07 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: underdog]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I don't remember saying that one type of point wasn't the other... that a pressure point couldn't be a vital point or a dim mak point... I was focusing on usage more than nomenclature. Three major areas of "vital points" are the solar plexus, gastroneimus plexus and vagus nerve structure in the neck and brachial sinus... which are primary nerve bundles and primary nerves. Most of the pressure points work off the branches of those areas.

The Dim Mak "delayed effect" points work off the circulatory system and the autonomic nervous system. Many of the points which cause organ damage are related to the vagus nerve structure and it's proximity to the area struck... which is why the angle and depth of strike are important.

Without getting into a lengthy discussion, I would suggest that the reason the information was taught through kata was to teach a student how to strike at the correct angles, with the right "tool" and from the proper position to effect the strike correctly. Ed asked for an explanation of the differences in the points, and for the most part, they are application differences used for different purposes. Anybody reading more into what I said than what I said is guessing... I'm sure plenty of you out there have medical training that has a different concept of how the body works than the dim mak concepts, but the dim mak training wasn't designed to treat illnesses... it was designed and used to cause "system shutdowns" in the body... i.e., organ damage, embolisms, etc.

Unfortunately for medical science, everything isn't able to be "reverse engineered". There is "life" and there is "death", and if science had all the answers, we could dig up Albert Einstein and "reconstitute" him for more studies. If science had all the answers to why the body dies, they could "fix" it... as it is, they can "delay death" in most cases for some period of time, but not always and not consistently.

Of course there's no "raw data" on dim mak, but I would suppose that the success rate of DM strikes would be comparable to the medical professions ability to reverse it... and that would be from "finding a victim" on the street, diagnosing the condition, and then correctly treating what was wrong with them. Of course that's just supposition, but the chatter here is always that DM doesn't work, and there's no data that shows it either way... but it's an interesting study, and a pretty good set of practice skills to have... just in case they do...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#368450 - 11/10/07 04:02 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
thanks for the explaination. You are right, I'm sceptical of meridian-based theory. I'll try not to be as biased, if you try to read my questions as being neutral...fair enough?

wait...hold off on the 'neutral' bit for a sec...

before someone tries shutting down the questioning by stating something like: "you can't know unless you have experience with study by a qualified instructor of dim mak." - to which, my question would be: "why? do YOU have experience with either causing delayed illness (and STD's dont count lol) or experienced being hit in a dim mak point that caused your liver to fail on the next full moon?"

ok...just had to get that out of my system


seriously and with all the neutrality I can muster... There are things in MA that we just can't train with full power and intent - it really is too dangerous, and we have to go to work the next day more or less intact. To that, I think we can agree.

Follow my logic...
So how do we know if something would actually work or not? well, it's not the 'dangerous technique' itself that is actually tested - it's the training required to be in the position to carry it out.

What I mean is, let's say we had a bunch of expendable brainless clones to train on. so we practice, I don't know, how best to snap a neck or something. well, training just that doesn't do a heck of a lot of good, since realistically not many assailents are going to let you walk up to them, get in position, and snap their neck. right?

so the training becomes more (lets say a drill for this particular example) principle-based as oppossed to technique based: "control the head" being a principle. Now, "control the head" can be safely trained. Then it's just assumed (in training), that if I train to "control the head", then IF I happen to get into a position where I COULD perhaps crank the neck to it's breaking point, it's easy to imagine being able to do so. (also other options like cutting off the air/blood supply).

but in training, the partner just taps or otherwise indicates 'yep, you got me' so the applyer releases and all get to go home in one piece.

you know all this already. that a resistive principle-based training drill to "control the head" is much more important and practical than practicing individual techniques for "snapping necks".


Overlay that same training method logic with Dim Mak. You train to get into position to apply it, NOT the actual applying (since killing or cripling your training partner isn't cool). correct?

ok, what are you basing success on? with a neck-crank, we've got the uke tapping, plus an easy to imagine outcome if full pressure/intent is applyied.

what equivalent mechanism do you have for actual Dim Mak training?


I think that is a valid question devoid of any trappings or bias.

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#368451 - 11/10/07 08:08 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ed,
that's not a bad perception, it just needs a bit of "other logic" attached. I'll try not to "step in it" over this...

Quote:

There are things in MA that we just can't train with full power and intent - it really is too dangerous, and we have to go to work the next day more or less intact. To that, I think we can agree.





Absolutely. Most of my training is "very restrained"... leading to a "guided throw" or "focused punch" without causing damaging physical side effects. That being said, however, I can easily see how to do it, what to do, and how the technique works with just a "bit more" emphasis. Shihonage, for example, is very safely trained in the dojo, but simply changing the angle of application would rip your shoulder out... but we train that technique almost every class.

Quote:

So how do we know if something would actually work or not? well, it's not the 'dangerous technique' itself that is actually tested - it's the training required to be in the position to carry it out.





I agree to a point with that... but it actually goes a little deeper. Now I know that people train "vagus nerve strikes" (ST-9) all the time, and with some small increase in either accuracy or pressure could absolutely kill someone without much remedy. That particular nerve is attached to every major organ in the body, and hitting it can cause an irreversible shutdown of any number of body systems. Want me to just give it a "love tap" for funsies?.. I don't think so. Heart surgeons don't even want to touch that nerve during surgery because of it's volatility.

Think of it in terms of shooting a pistol. I shoot well, and for the most part, I'm very accurate. I practice all the time, and it's clear that my .40 caliber will blow a hole in just about anything. That doesn't mean I want to have you go hold my target while I practice, or that you want to be on the "other end" of my practice.

While I agree that the DM training is somewhat theoretical in it's actual applications, the techniques coming out of kata should show you that there are "hitting points" that are more devastating than simply blocking or punching to a general area. Training in your "vital area" targets is exactly the same as DM training, and creates the same effects. Merely the nuances of striking structured points, in order or combination, takes methodical training... devoid of the idea that it "could do this" or not... it takes development of a particular set of skills to reach those points during fighting... i.e., the kata application.

I don't think I've covered how much actual "out of the dojo" study is necessary to learn the points, and the combinations in "modern" martial arts, which doesn't have anything to do with whether or not it works, but it sure occupies a lot of time...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#368452 - 11/10/07 08:23 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by wristtwister -

Quote:

If science had all the answers




I find that an intriguing statement. I don't know of any scientists that think that science HAS all the answers. That type of thinking is not how science works at all. Science is about asking questions and doing meaningful research (with peer review) to find out what the answer may be.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#368453 - 11/10/07 12:58 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: MattJ]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

That type of thinking is not how science works at all.




Not true science, but today's version of it does. Concensus is reported as fact... take Global Warming, for instance. There are so many holes in the science of global warming that climatologists are changing professions to avoid facing the wrath of the "scientific community"... who is in the process of structuring a whole new economic system based on this environmental terrorism. "Carbon credits"... and a whole new scam of "we can sell you some authority to continue polluting for XXX years if you pay us $$$$$... big bucks.

How many medicines have been recalled? The courts are full of lawsuits where "the new miracle drug" worked great for a few years, until the "unreported side effects" started showing up.

Quote:

Science is about asking questions and doing meaningful research (with peer review) to find out what the answer may be.




It's a bit hard to do research in systems of shutting the body down... they lock you up for it. Hitler and Stalin did a bit of that, but I hardly call it "scientific" study into Dim Mak... their research was in "better killing methods and disposal of the bodies"...

Medical "science" is way overblown as to it's capability and it's ability to solve problems. We're having "drug resistant" problems with staph infections now that medical science doesn't have a clue how to defend against... so where is all that "science" when they don't FIND the answer?
Do they get credit for good guesses?

Scientific analysis...
prediction of the results
hypothesis of what will happen based on the prediction
test the data
record the results
analyze the results and create findings
compare the findings with the hypothesis, and if the results differ from the hypothesis, you change the hypothesis to match the results.

Now, you're no longer answering the question you originally asked, you're simply rephrasing the question based on the results so you have a matching hypothesis and answer.

That's the scientific method that is being taught to students in high school... What gets lost is the actual answer to the original question... and data is as easily manipulated as changing numbers...

If you don't want to change your question, you simply change the results to match your expected answer. You say, that's done with "peer review"... which is "consesus"... not actually proving or disproving the data, but agreeing to develop a "common answer".

By the way, I spent 25 years doing pollution abatement, and have some minor science background in chemistry and mechanical engineering working on pollution abatement project design. Scrubbing chemical plant exhausts and cleaning effluent discharges are my thing... and so I'm quite familiar with how science works... both on the academic and practical levels.

And science still doesn't have the answers...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#368454 - 11/10/07 01:37 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Grady -

Quote:

And science still doesn't have the answers...




With all due respect, you are still not getting what I'm trying to relate. Science is not the/an answer......it is a process. Answers may change as new facts are discovered. I realize this is brutally difficult for some people to understand, since they want perfection, instantly. But that isn't possible all the time.

Quote:

How many medicines have been recalled? The courts are full of lawsuits where "the new miracle drug" worked great for a few years, until the "unreported side effects" started showing up.




Are those flaws of science or flaws of business? Were the effects not known, or were they hidden? Was enough study not done, or not allowed? Etc.

Quote:

Medical "science" is way overblown as to it's capability and it's ability to solve problems.




Again, "overblown" in who's estimation? Certainly not by scientists. Very few of THEM think that they have solved every problem. Most of them are painfully aware how far they have to go in that regard.

Quote:

We're having "drug resistant" problems with staph infections now that medical science doesn't have a clue how to defend against... so where is all that "science" when they don't FIND the answer?




Actually they have known (and been openly discussing) the problem for many years now. The over-reliance on anti-biotics and anti-bacterial soaps have fostered that problem. Can't blame science if people don't listen when solutions are offered ie; stop using so many anti-biotics.

Quote:

Now, you're no longer answering the question you originally asked, you're simply rephrasing the question based on the results so you have a matching hypothesis and answer.




You mean like the current administration has done with say.......global warming?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#368455 - 11/10/07 01:51 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
corruption is in every discipline....from physical scientists to meridian theorists to theologians.

science, when non-corrupt, endevors to find empirical truths.

psudo-science endevors to prove perceived and relative truths.


since there is no empirical evidence of chi meridians, then that just means it's scientifically unproven. It does not mean it's false. it just means: "chi meridians could exist, but if they do, scientific study has not found emperical evidence of them."

people who say chi meridians DO exist, but then do not produce emperical evidence, are using psudo-scientific method. (ie: I believe or perceive it to be true, so therefore it is true.)

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#368456 - 11/10/07 09:56 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
had another thought... 'empirical evidence' such as people dying from baseballs to the chest or in boxing/football/hockey getting hit just right, etc is evidence of not one thing. it's on a case by case basis depending on where/how they got hit, pre-existing conditions that perhaps made them suceptable, and the like case-by-case evidence.

To use these freak cases as evidence of either chi meridians or dim mak is a leap to conclusion. it's superimposing data onto a conclusion instead of just going where the evidence leads.


If it's not apparent (as in a neck crank) of the outcome - "If I hit here, then it will cause the liver to shut down within 24 hours", then again, what are you basing success on if it cant be tested and you don't have any empirical data?

basically you are taking an instructor's word for it....which may be an agreed upon opinion on his part of the dim mak community as a while....and they in turn base THEIR assumption on ancient Chinese texts. so ultimately, it's a leap of faith that the texts were not written for hype, but are based on emperical study (and the only way to study something such as this is thru systematic trial and error on some poor souls who were deemed expendable).

possible they did that? of course. but if such morbid study was ever done, the data itself was never published. All you see are the reported results. not sure about you, but if someone were to publish a revolutionary theory, it kinda goes without saying that you'd want to see the data the theory was based on. otherwise the theory is taken on faith.

another curious thing about the Chinese prior to adopting western medicine practice. their beliefs thru the centuries more-or-less forbid disection of the human body. They resorted to metaphoric language to describe what they observed externally and felt internally. not good or bad, just saying interesting to note.


one last point. The word 'theory' is sometimes used loosely. but in the scientific community if something is regarded as a bona-fide theory - it's pretty serious and one step away from being a law of science/nature.

In psudo-science the word 'theory' tries to be downgraded to mean 'opinion'. A theory is not merely an opinion.

For example, the theory of evolution is not on level ground as the theory of intelligent design. I.D. when put thru the same rigors that evolution has survived for well over 100 years, does not cut the mustard even close. Therefore, that I.D. is referred to as a 'theory' is a self-proclaimed title. It's not a theory of science since it doesn't pass the rigors beyond opinion.

I think 'merdian/chi theory' falls into that category as well. 'theory' in the case of dim mak, would be a self-proclaimed and self-serving title to say the least.

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#368457 - 11/10/07 09:59 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
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If you actually spent some time training (correctly and in the prescribed manner), you will start to feel where these "chi" meridians are. And while you're at it, look up "musculotendonous system".

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#368458 - 11/11/07 12:41 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
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I see you want to make the conversation personal instead of making points that stand up on their own.


so you have been trained in Dim Mak then, eyrie?

your consistant attempts of making points thru the diversionary tactic of insults to me, my training and instruction is noted. but very much not respected as a valid position in argument.

yet once again, we are faced with someone who has never shown himself either on video or in person to anyone here. Funny how everyone claiming they 'do it right', are the ones which have never been seen.

you claim that calmness/patience thru meditation is a prerequisite to understanding IMA...yet you are the first to lose your temper in these conversations - is that indicitive of you not understanding?

btw - What is the measurement of your waistline again, eyrie?


see, I can get personal too. doesn't really add to the conversation though, does it.

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#368459 - 11/11/07 11:56 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

If you actually spent some time training (correctly and in the prescribed manner), you will start to feel where these "chi" meridians are. And while you're at it, look up "musculotendonous system".




Yet another condescending, ad hominem attack. Don't suppose you would care to actually answer a question, or actually add some detail, would you?
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#368460 - 11/11/07 12:32 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: MattJ]
Raul Perez Offline
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Gung Sao anybody?
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#368461 - 11/11/07 03:42 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
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Quote:

You are right, I'm sceptical of meridian-based theory. I'll try not to be as biased, if you try to read my questions as being neutral...fair enough?





Just couldn't stay "on the wagon" could you, Ed?

Clearly, you are not a proponent of actually studying meridian theory, only discounting it based on arguments. Personally, I didn't see anything personal in Eyrie's suggestion that you actually find someone and train in the arts using them before decrying them as frauds... and I'm not talking about the "chi ball" crowd, but legitimate teachers in legitimate arts.

Find a good Isshin Ryu or Euchi Ryu (probably spelled that wrong) school and actually spend some time finding out the information rather than simply arguing about it.

Quote:

basically you are taking an instructor's word for it....


Okay... but aren't you as well in what you study? That sounds like the "my teacher knows everything but your's is a liar" type of kid's argument. If you want to know for real, go study for yourself. That's not real complicated, even for a skeptic.

You can nit-pick the words, phrases, definitions or anything else of the arguments presented here on the boards and when you're face to face with an opponent, it's the fire in the furnace that burns you. I'm completely comfortable with you having no faith in dim mak, meridians, and for that matter, any art or technique system that I've ever studied. It's an advantage to me to have everyone thinking I know nothing, and only talk a good fight. The proof's on the floor...

What I always found interesting, was that the skeptics of martial arts (while they might be good athletes) never really understood the information they got. They were consistently outclassed by masters who were well up in age, and who had no problems with them walking away from the schools or systems without learning the full scale of their abilities.

Modern martial arts aren't traditional martial arts, even in the TMA schools. "Bought" instruction is a product, not a skillset trained over and over for years to learn the defined skills of an art. 24-month black belts don't have the skills of 5 year shodans, and when they were taught by green belts until they made "black belt class" where they were taught by 17 year-old shodans, the level of both instruction and information went down considerably.

I told you many times before that I sought out "master instructors"... not necessarily the ones with the big reputations, but with world-class skills, and who were known internationally for their level of expertise. Whether or not you believe what they taught me is like my dog barking at the moon... the moon doesn't hear it and really doesn't care.

Your lack of faith in old knowledge doesn't make it moot.

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#368462 - 11/11/07 06:03 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Quote:

The proof's on the floor...



a simple question I asked earlier: What is the nature of that 'proof on the floor' when it comes to Dim Mak?

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#368463 - 11/11/07 06:32 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
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Quote:

Yet another condescending, ad hominem attack. Don't suppose you would care to actually answer a question, or actually add some detail, would you?


Er... which part of look up "musculotendinous system" is not "adding detail"? Look fellas... the information I have given you is right there... in front of you. At least have the decency to either look it up, look into it and analyze it FWIW. I'm not here to do your research and thinking for you. Neither am I here to spoon feed you. MA is a "thinking AND doing" person's game. It's about body awareness on many levels - not just kinesthetic, and not just your own body.

However, if you want to debunk something and argue about it.... at least do some research and argue it intelligently. Otherwise, any fool can argue just about anything.

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#368464 - 11/11/07 06:48 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: MattJ]
Ed_Morris Offline
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...and there he goes, another "exit, stage left"...

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#368465 - 11/11/07 07:05 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
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Well, Ed... it seems to me that you would rather argue about anything and nothing instead of actually having an intelligent discussion about something. Why not discuss "musculotendinous system" and how that might affect the body on a somatic level?

Oh, wait... that means you might have to do some research first... and that'd be too much work, right?

So, why should I bother if you can't?

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#368466 - 11/11/07 07:11 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
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You win, Ed... Dim Mak doesn't work. All those points and combinations I know are B-S, which is why I spent so much time learning them. Your overwhelming proof of "I don't believe it" wins the day... I can't remember what your actual proof that it doesn't work is... but what the hell, I don't have the genetic code you must have been born with to automatically detect scams.

What I do know is that when I hit certain places, I get certain results... and when I create certain situations with an opponent using those points they go into excruciating pain... but I'm sure they're just doing it to make me feel better. It can't really hurt, they're just being nice because I showed them a technique and they want to make me think it worked.

I guess that means I can start slapping the hell out of the restricted points in DM and my opponents will be just fine... I have your guarantee. I know that because "you don't believe in it", so that makes it true.

I notice that you don't bother to take any instruction in it to debunk it first hand, but you argue like you're a master of it, and that's not an ad hominem attack, just an observation. I'd be glad to put you in touch with the right people who could leave you as a lump on the floor... but lucky for you, they aren't that kind of people.

Whatever the actual truth of it is, the method and training of DM has survived many years beyond your 40-odd on the earth, and the world is a big place. There's a lot of things I haven't seen, and wouldn't believe if I did... but that doesn't make me right about them. Maybe belief in the system is what makes it teachable, and the meridian system could be a clever method to disguise "other things" about it. You'll never know.

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#368467 - 11/11/07 07:54 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

Er... which part of look up "musculotendinous system" is not "adding detail"? Look fellas... the information I have given you is right there... in front of you. At least have the decency to either look it up, look into it and analyze it FWIW. I'm not here to do your research and thinking for you. Neither am I here to spoon feed you. MA is a "thinking AND doing" person's game. It's about body awareness on many levels - not just kinesthetic, and not just your own body.

However, if you want to debunk something and argue about it.... at least do some research and argue it intelligently. Otherwise, any fool can argue just about anything.




Decency, eh? Culled from this thread here -


http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...p;vc=1&nt=4

MattJ - How about some examples of non 'surface-level' stuff? Videos? Something?


Eyrie - Sorry, no vids... just checked out prices of video camcorders and it'll have to wait a while... still paying off the mats.

Here's what I mean... stand in a relaxed stance, shoulder width apart. Extend your left arm out and have a partner push on it gently, but with consistent pressure. Without moving your feet, or arm or turning the waist or transferring your weight... see if you can bounce them off your arm.

There's a trick to it, but it's not ki magic - it's physics 101. Plain and simple.


MattJ - Sooooooo........how do you do the trick? What you are describing is impossible.


Eyrie - Hard to do, but not impossible. The concept itself is very simple. Think Newton's 3rd law... every action has an equal and OPPOSITE reaction


MattJ - OK, I'll try again. What exactly are you moving to make the oopponent "bounce off" if it's not your arms, legs, waist, etc. Must be something, right? You said "physics 101".

So what is it?

Eyrie - Not moving anything Matt.... it's a simple body trick using Newton's 3 Laws... You're smart... you'll work it out.


Eyrie - Like so many, you want to run before you can crawl... If you can't do this simple body trick under static load, or you don't even understand how it works, how can you hope to apply it dynamically in any given situation? It all starts (and ends) with THE basics. Dynamic application is based on the same principles as static practice. Why wouldn't it?

*Note how the trick has gone from "plain and simple" to "hard to do" to "simple". Which is it?


Eyrie (asking Ed Morris) - Ok, Ed, what do you understand about breathing? Utility for what Function and Purpose? How do you do it? What are you focusing on in breath work? What are you looking to accomplish as a result of breath work?

And don't just say "inhale/exhale". Give us the meat.


MattJ - What are your answers, Eyrie?


Eyrie - What's your answer? Ed's answer? I asked first. Show me why you think what you do is "internal" and based on non-esoteric concepts, since my answers are obviously unsatisfactory.


*Note that Eyrie has not directly answered any of my questions, and insists on me answering a question that he asked Ed, not me.


Eyrie (answering Ed Morris) - In other words, you have no idea - apart from a cursory and surface level understanding of basic breath control.

* Ad hominem attack. Obviously we don't know much about IMA. That's why we ask questions.


Eyrie - Maybe you should do your own research... why should I share anything with you, and your sarcastic, Mr-know-it-all attitude?

Besides, even if I did explain it, what's to stop you from twisting it around and putting words in my mouth, as you always do?

Instead of coming here and thinking you know it all and can explain this from your non-qi perspective, go do some research and maybe you won't have to ask me to explain it.

As for the exercise earlier... can you do it? Can you explain it?


Eyrie - You want an explanation? Fine... breathe thru your skin.


Eyrie (answering Ed, when Ed asks Eyrie to answer his own questions) - Why? So you can tear it down with your twisted sarcastic remarks?

So what if you think I'm hedging or being dishonest or deceptive? I couldn't care less what you think.


MattJ - What do you mean "breathe thru your skin?" I know that humans do pass oxygen through the skin - but not enough to stay alive in lieu of normal respiration. I don't get your point.


Eyrie - It's too detailed to go into, and I'm not going to do this here on an open forum. Suffice to say, humans are capable of skin respiration, not to the same extent that some other species are capable of - and certainly not to the level of absurdity that Ed makes it out to be. However, the point is not about actually breathing thru your skin (the absurd point that Ed is insinuating), but to exercise micro-level control over specific body functions. Such micro control (using the breath - since it is the only autonomic function that is under our conscious control), is not the end in itself, but a means to exercise overall control of our bodies on an internal level.

Such overall control leads to, overall, more efficiency in movement and power generation. Power generation in IMA is different to EMA. But like the hard/soft dichotomy, it is not a purely this or that distinction - there will be varying degrees of internal/external along the continuum. Most arts will have some elements of both internal/external, some more so than others in various ways. I think this needs to be clear. It is not simply a case of "oh, we also do that...so what's the difference?", and certainly not for discussion purposes.

For starters, breath pressure manipulation of internal structures is merely a power augmentation device, but it's not as simple as inhale and exhale on output. It's a lot more complicated than that.

And then there's the rest of it - peppered throughout this and other threads. Look for the gems.

That's all I'm saying on this issue.

I'll just add that if one practices sanchin/tensho and does not fully know or understand what it is they are practising, then chances are, they are merely replicating an internally-bereft fascimile. Same goes for taiji forms or what have you forms - aikido techniques included.

Knowing and understanding what you are practicing helps add the correct intent and focus on your practice, true?

Otherwise, you might as well be better off hitting the weights and getting stronger that way. It's still strength training right?


Eyrie (after Ed again asks Eyrie to answer his own questions) - If you think that is going to bait me into sharing anything with you, you are sorely mistaken. It just makes you look like a pregnant female gorilla's a$$.

So, were you bullied in school, or were you the bully?

*Ad hominem attack


Eyrie - Let me make one thing clear... I can be short, annoyed, but never angry. It takes a lot more to get me really riled. I intentionally left out a lot of information, simply because, and as you well know... without having experienced it and actually FEELING it, it is hard to describe it to someone who has no point of reference with which to comprehend what you mean.

Thanks for the help.
Note how Bossman, Gavin, and Butterflypalm offered up actual answers at times through that thread.
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#368468 - 11/11/07 07:59 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
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Thanks for dredging this up... And what's this got to do with THIS thread?

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#368469 - 11/11/07 08:02 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: MattJ]
MattJ Offline
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Why don't YOU tell ME?
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#368470 - 11/11/07 08:15 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
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Well, I think it is extremely bad form to be dredging up stuff from another thread and inserting it into a different thread. The only ad hominem attacks here are the ones you and Ed seem to be waging against me.

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#368471 - 11/11/07 08:21 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
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Of course, you're so right. I feel like a bully. Or perhaps a pregnant gorilla's a$$. I thought the point had to do with you asking for people to have "decency" and to do "research" (like asking questions on a forum?), and expecting people to actually answer, and not avoid answering or call them names.

But what do I know?
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#368472 - 11/11/07 08:35 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
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I don't know what you call "research" but to me, asking a question and then twisting the answer around to attack (based on one's limited understanding of what the answer entails) is IMO, NOT research. That's being deliberately argumentative, which apparently Ed is well-known for. Why should I engage with an argumentative stance if the object is to twist it around and attack any information I provide in good faith, because the answer is not what they want to hear?

And it's OK for Ed to do so, is it? And OK for you to bring up a conversation from a different thread to attack me on another one?

AFAIK, I've answered your questions to the best of my ability. If there is something you need clarification, then perhaps you could rephrase the question and maybe I can attempt to answer it differently?

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#368473 - 11/11/07 09:31 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

And OK for you to bring up a conversation from a different thread to attack me on another one?




Interesting that you find examples of your attacks on others as an attack on yourself.

Quote:

AFAIK, I've answered your questions to the best of my ability. If there is something you need clarification, then perhaps you could rephrase the question and maybe I can attempt to answer it differently?




No thanks. You've made yourself quite clear.

Quote:

I intentionally left out a lot of information


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#368474 - 11/11/07 09:38 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
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I don't think anyone has addressed my previous points. I was being serious then eyrie stepped in and attacked out of nowhere. (and I'm not sure why, since I don't think he's ever had Dim Mak training). I wasn't addressing or asking him, I was asking wristwister or anyone else who actually has Dim Mak training from a qualified instructor. I was being serious and neutral.

I have no interest in personal attacks...I joined in for conversation as to Dim Mak training methods and questions that I had specifically regarding that. I'm not looking to 'call out' anything. (more often than not, the responses call themselves out anyway) as I mentioned earlier, I tried to ask the questions with neutrality.

The only serious answer I got was in the realm of 'train with a qualified Dim Mak instructor'. which is fine, but a little strange, since if that will be the answer for anyone asking questions about their training method...then why reply at all?

it sortof makes it look like avoidance of the question....and it's funny how it seems to happen every time with these psudo-scientific topics.

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#368475 - 11/11/07 09:50 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
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Er... you made a statement about "chi" meridians, and I gave you a reasonable response about actually training and pointed you to "musculotendinous system". I don't know what that has to do with my knowing "dim mak" or not.

If you think that was an attack, then so be it....

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#368476 - 11/11/07 10:02 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
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eyrie, yes I took it as an unprovoked attack:
Quote:

If you actually spent some time training (correctly and in the prescribed manner), you will start to feel where these "chi" meridians are. And while you're at it, look up "musculotendonous system".






Grady:
as I mentioned before the conversation was interrupted, I made the point that in training, we obviously don't go thru with dangerous techniques, like a neck crank to the point of breaking. The partner taps or indicates it's enough and it's released. I suppose it is a touch of faith that if carried out further, it could cause death....but in most cases, it's pretty obvious and very easy to imagine what damage would be done if at full.

If you compare that level of assumption, with the level of assumption needed to believe hitting a given spot will cause an organ failure after an amount of time, It seems it would take a much greater act of faith to be able to assume that.

even if a Dim Mak hit to a certain spot, hurts more than other spots - it doesn't necessarily spell certain death, organ failure or whatever the prescribed mortal outcome is claimed to be.
It's an assumed outcome.

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#368477 - 11/11/07 10:36 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
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Ed, I'll revisit this for a moment, and try to be neutral as well... but no promises.

Simple question: Do you think injuries or surgeries can cause organ problems? A simple read of several articles from the orthopaedic community answer that question with a resounding "yes"... because a number of orthopaedic surgeries have a history of causing organ damage, and specific injuries that they treat also cause those same types of organ damage.

Now, since the nervous system, circulatory system, lymphatic system, and musculotendonous system are responsible for movement, organ function, and general good health, why would a defined strike to a combination of specific points in the body be unable to recreate the exact problem by hitting points in those systems? The surgical protocols define the problems very clearly, which defines the procedure of surgery, in an effort to avoid cutting or causing scar tissue to prevent the problems... so why would strikes to the same points they are purposely avoiding somehow not cause the same problem simply because they are injury-related rather than surgically induced? One of the reasons that the DM techniques rely so much on the specific angles of strikes and depth of penetration is to induce the exact trauma being avoided in treating these injuries by doctors.

You have to remember that these strikes are designed to cause injury, organ damage, and circulatory problems. The anomolies of kids getting hit in the chest with a baseball and having their heart stop, while sad, are exactly the kind of effect caused by DM... and the "depth of injury" also has a lot to do with the DM attack. There are strikes that cause you to get sick on your stomach, dizzy, lethargic... many different kinds of effects. The "legend" of "death touch" isn't as far fetched as you want to believe, but like everything else that's in the public domain, there are charlatans out there and hucksters who exploit it. Those that "make their living" doing PP seminars are the last ones I'd be discussing the actual training with. The side show and the real art are miles apart. I learned that from being associated with both types of teachers through training, and it takes some time and training to sort them out. There are a lot of guys out there that can talk a good game, and know a few tricks... but in the end, they end up doing a side show rather than actually teaching DM.

That's as neutral as I can make it...


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#368478 - 11/11/07 10:49 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
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Whatever Ed... whatever. Seems like it's OK for you to do it. And now you're acting all wounded and innocent?

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#368479 - 11/11/07 11:37 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Quote:

since the nervous system, circulatory system, lymphatic system, and musculotendonous system are responsible for movement, organ function, and general good health, why would a defined strike to a combination of specific points in the body be unable to recreate the exact problem by hitting points in those systems?



yes, that seems reasonable, given the data to back it up. I'm assuming someone must have done that research.

so I must have misunderstood: you are using modern western anatomy to pinpoint your strikes? because I notice you don't mention 'meridians' or chi pathways in your list of systems.

last question on this, before eyrie pops something in his 'musculotendonous system':
In your opinion, would you say that the meridian system overlays and fits nicely on top of what we now know from western anatomy? in other words, if we decided to base MA targeting on modern anatomy without consideration of the meridian system...would anything be lost? in your opinion.


ok, I'll sneak one more in... is it possible to have an accidental Dim Mak death? sortof like the baseball to the chest freak accident, was that an indication of an accidental Dim Mak hit? again, in your opinion.

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#368480 - 11/12/07 12:08 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
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Quote:

last question on this, before eyrie pops something in his 'musculotendonous system'


Nice one... so, you sniping me is OK then? And I'm not allowed to respond? WTF...???

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#368481 - 11/12/07 06:31 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
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Quote:

so I must have misunderstood: you are using modern western anatomy to pinpoint your strikes? because I notice you don't mention 'meridians' or chi pathways in your list of systems.





No, the point locations have been known for hundreds if not thousands of years. Western medicine has nothing to do with it.

Quote:

I notice you don't mention 'meridians' or chi pathways in your list of systems.





Well, unless you have an "alternate body" the meridian system overlays the entire body, and isn't independent of anything. Just like anything else needing a "map", it's a map relating to TCM points in the body, and is used for teaching a number of things related to the body.

Just another observation now, but you seem just to be arguing for the sake of arguing. You've been given all this same information before, and just because you choose not to believe it doesn't mean it's going to change. It goes back to the "radio waves" anology... you looked inside the radio and didn't see any radio waves, so they don't exist... and just like electricity, you won't ever be able to take chi and hold it in your hand and examine it. You can't see it, but you might not want to stick your finger in the breaker box to see if there's anything there.

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#368482 - 11/12/07 08:18 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
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Quote:

In your opinion, would you say that the meridian system overlays and fits nicely on top of what we now know from western anatomy?






Bloody hell, you git's have an epic chi battle and don't invite me? tsk tsk!

I had a anatomy and physiology exam on Friday night, think I done quite well in it as well. In 5 weeks time I have an epic weekend of Oriental Medicine theory exams and practical assessments for my physical Shiatsu abilities. I'm going to have to locate meridians, points and diagnosis areas. Can I just say, for the record, that I don't believe for one second that there are loads of little lines traversing the body. I really really don't. BUT I say in answer to ed's question, the Chinese theory I've learnt and practice overlays perfectly with the western medical theories. Absolutely fits so snuggly that they'll be warm and toastie all winter. In fact some of the Chinese stuff covers better than the western stuff does at the moment. Meridians are a conceptual model and learning how to treat them within the conceptual framework has given me a consistent model to approach my bodywork with.

I'm a believing non-believer! I'm just concerned with the result first and how it works after. That seems to be the intelligent way my Shiatsu course has been set up. To start off with its predominately TCM based and now we're covering stuff at a cellular level. I think this approach has actually worked, rather than getting bogged down in some highly complex meaningless dribble we were given a model to run with. This meant we jumped straight into our treatments and started building a tactile sensitivity and ability to actually "fix" the body. Within a year I was sorting problems that had gone unfixed by physio's. Now I have a basis of experience from which to use the new information that is coming through. I love the western stuff, really do, but I'm a practical thinker so I need something to run with. For me, the oriental medicine stuff gives me a process to visualize during my treatments, its a practical image of what is supposed to be happening. My western A & P is my intellectual understanding of whats happening...but is too hideously complex to really help me practically during the treatment.

I'll give you an example, for my A & P exam on Friday I needed to learn about Isometric and Isotonic contractions...couldn't get my head around some if it so I asked Cord. Cord came back with, "Damn haven't had to think about that stuff for 15 years. Sort of stuff you learn for exams, but has no practical use afterwards!". Sums up western A & P for me, it's intellectual curiosity (and unfortunately a required for my course!) for me!
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#368483 - 11/12/07 09:16 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Quote:

Er... you made a statement about "chi" meridians, and I gave you a reasonable response about actually training and pointed you to "musculotendinous system". I don't know what that has to do with my knowing "dim mak" or not.




Pointed to the musculotendonous system? That is not adding detail, it is simply being vague. "Musculotendonous system" is a general answer that I could apply as an answer to questions on ANY style.

BJJ - How do armbar? "musculotendonous system"

TKD - How do jump-spinning back kick? "musculotendonous system"

Goju-ryu: How do reverse punch? "musculotendonous system"

Weight-lifting : "musculotendonous system"

Taking a walk - "musculotendonous system"

Typing on an internet forum - "musculotendonous system"

No detail at all. A non-answer.

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#368484 - 11/12/07 09:58 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
appreciate the replies. Gavin, you do realize that meridian-based TCM has been intentionally 'updated' during the 1950's to fall more in line with modern medicine. In fact, at first, Classical Chinese Medicine was banned from fears of it's government seeing that China would be left far behind contemporary medical science. but there was strong resistance to modernize, so it was instead decided to regulate Chinese Medicine instead of abolishing it. What resulted was a comprimize system of CCM+western medicine...it was named 'TCM' or 'Traditional Chinese Medicine'. 'Traditional' apparently meaning 1950's.

since that was a sharp break from CCM which corresponds exactly with the 'New China' movement, some things as they relate to health are very interesting to note.
Quote:


Primasia News, Hong Kong

01.05.2001
Chinese people's average lifespan

Chinese people's average lifespan has almost doubled since New China was founded in 1949, according to statistics in China. The average lifespan has shot up by 36 years and people now live to 71, a dramatic shift from half a century ago. Before 1949, people were severely affected by many varieties of diseases due to the lack of health and medical care. 100,000 people were infected with Kala-azar, a tropical disease, 600,000 had malaria and 1.7 million suffered from tuberculosis in North China's Hebei Province alone. In the past 50 years, the nation has made great progress in building up its medical system, which features low costs, wide coverage and high efficiency. The death rate for pregnant women decreased to 63.6 out of every 100,000 from the previous 1,500. Medical facilities and institutes now total 310,000, increasing from 3,670 in 1949, with the number of beds increasing to 3.15 million from 80,000.





I forget the exact numbers, but the enormous increase in the number of modern medically trained students produced in China and Chinese abroad, corresponds directly with the timeline of their increaced lifespan. I don't see that as coincidence. A CCM-only system gave them 35 years, adopting western medicine gave them 71. not a bad deal for those willing to break from tradition a bit and grapple with overpopulation (which did become a problem particularly after Chinese started living longer, so a birth limit of 1 per couple has been in place. then of course you've got the problem of most wanting that one child to be a boy to carry on the family name...what do they do with all the girls born? )


Thats not to say TCM/CCM is useless - some folk remidies have had direct impact on modern drug design. TCM treatments to ease peace of mind also have been successfuly popular - and when it comes to having a good massage, or easing elusive pains, TCM is one of many alternative treatments based on folk traditions (I prefer a Swedish massage in a Jacuzzi ). but you won't see any meridian maps at your local Emergency Room or ICU.

if those maps/systems arent referred to in order to treat trama injuries, then why would we assume those maps/systems can be trusted to cause trama any more effectively than modern anatomy?


ps. not you Gavin, I think you are doing great in not losing your temper with the clueless like me, but to others: before an angry, emotion-driven rebuttal...take a deep breath - it's all just not that important.

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#368485 - 11/12/07 11:07 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I don't actually like using the term "TCM" for reasons that I think I've gone through before, but I prefer oriental medicine but always slip into common usage terms like TCM. The history of OM medicine is a little more clouded than that Ed, and OM is still going strong in China and gaining a much wider stronger audience, in fact the is a revival going on back to medical texts compiled long before the cultural revolution. One of my tutors is a lecturer at the Beijing University and a wonderful source of information to speak to.

The history of Shiatsu is actually quite colorful as well, with Shiatsu being a relatively modern term (20th century) and again has seen a large revival in going back to it's roots in Tui Na (Amna in Japanese). Masunaga who qualified from Namakoshi's school of shiatsu (the style of shiatsu you'll be familiar with from Japan) actually re-introduced the OM elements back into his style of Shiatsu which later became "Zen Shiatsu" named after the translation of his Shiatsu book into English. Ironically the Masunaga meridian system taught in Zen Shiatsu closely resembles theories based on the "Six Divisions" School of thought, that if I remember correctly actually pre-dates the "classical" meridian system taught in modern acupuncture. In fact, from what I've read Masunagas Shiatsu closely resembles the from of bodywork Namakoshi intuitively developed before he began his formal western studies.

I was shown a book at the weekend called "Reflections of the Sea" which is on hara diagnosis (palpation of the hara area) which has a hara map dating back to the mid 1800's. This hara map very closely resembles the one that Masunaga and his colleagues developed.

Quote:

if those maps/systems arent referred to in order to treat trama injuries, then why would we assume those maps/systems can be trusted to cause trama any more effectively than modern anatomy?




I think it's a fallacy that China doesn't have a rich surgical history too. Just done a quick google and got this off Wikipedia:

Quote:

Ancient China

Hua Tuo was a famous Chinese physician during the Eastern Han and Three Kingdoms era. He was the first person to perform surgery with the aid of anesthesia, some 1600 years before the practice was adopted by Europeans.[




Also both the Japanese and Chinese have a rich tradition in "bone setting" which is also a fascinating practice.

The road map that is used for the meridian system I think can be thought more of the way that we would think of a neurological schematic. You wouldn't expect a Neurologist to be working in an E.R sewing up gaping holes in peoples bodies or fixing bones. But you would expect a Neurologist to be able to tell you wear to make a little cut to stop someone using their left arm. Or cut the nerve that tells the spleen to do its job.

I'm still on the fence about Dim Mak, very much theoretical in my opinion. Back in the day its fairly well documented that prisoners and slaves were used in "medical" experiments throughout large parts of Chinese history. I believe a lot of the so called "death touch" methods we based more in theory than practical tests.

Another interesting thing that I discussed in my lesson with Bossman on Friday is that what were once causes of death, now aren't. Bossman covered a section of the form that he said is reputed to shut down the lymphatic system. Shutting down this system will greatly effect the bodies ability to deal with harmful toxins and stuff, and basically we poison ourselves through our inability to detox. I think its plausible to think that we might be able damage the neurological links in the chain to cause that communication to break. Bossman said that condition back in the day would have caused certain death, but nowadays it'd probably be fixed relatively easily. So I suppose "death touch" maybe should be called the "make you feel quite ill" touch. I don't know, a lot of if's, but's and maybe's for my liking. My OM studies mainly stay in the realms of healing than precise striking. I do Tai Chi to learn to hit hard enough to smash whatever I hit!

I've totally lost my chain of thought now!


Edited by Gavin (11/12/07 11:18 AM)
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#368486 - 11/12/07 06:22 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: MattJ]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Matt,
I know that "musculotendonous system" is apparently infuriating to you, but it's the system that controls body movement... so even with your consistent "musculotendonous system" answers, which you thought vague, you were right in every case.

As for "no detail at all", I don't necessarily disagree, but I think what Eyrie was intending to do was to have everyone interested to do a little research and gain a basis of understanding. These are not questions with "yes" and "no" answers, and long detailed explanations to someone who has no basis of understanding the information would be useless... like trying to explain karate techniques using BJJ terms in French. (Or in my case, explaining in English).

You also have to want to hear an answer in what you are told. Dealing with Ed is frustratiing sometimes because no matter what the answer is, he's not satisfied with it. He simply beats the horse until it's dead, and then continues to pile on. I've been talking with him about this particular subject for more than a year, and I don't feel one step closer to having anything resolved with him yet. He simply doesn't believe that DM works, so no matter how much information you give him, he's waiting for the body on the floor before he acknowledges that it could possibly work. He's a skeptic, and isn't looking for an answer, just the next level of the argument. That's not bad, it's just Ed...

JMHO, but I think you have to want to actually learn something to learn it. My boss seldom gives me a direct answer to anything at work unless something's on fire... so I have to "do it myself" to find out things. The same principle applies to martial arts... if you don't know, go find out for yourself.

Over the years, I've driven all day and night to attend a class, and slept on the dojo floors to be there for instruction. Nobody spoon-fed me what I needed to learn, I had to dig it out for myself, and being a "keyboard master" isn't the way to learn anything.

There's a lot of good information on this site, but even if you remembered it all, and could recite it verbatim, you wouldn't be any better of a martial artist. It's the practice and the skills that you gain training that matter... and shouting at each other isn't going to make any of us smarter.

I don't have any issue with anybody that doesn't think kyusho jitsu works or that DM strikes are lethal. I have my own opinion of the material from training. How much anyone knows or is willing to let out to the public is "their decision", so just because you don't get an answer you are satisfied with doesn't mean the person you ask doesn't know. I've had teachers "put me on the right path" to learn a lot of things, and for the most part it's worked... and my understanding of the information is "my understanding", which I might or might not be willing to share just because somebody asked. I did a lot of work to learn what I know, and nobody else is entitled to it just because they're curious... I will, however, "put them on the right path" to find out... and on this particular subject, have done so several times already.

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#368487 - 11/12/07 06:25 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ed,
please read my post to MattJ... I mentioned you in it, and don't want you to think I'm talking about you "out of school"...

_________________________
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#368488 - 11/12/07 07:35 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Grady -

Quote:

Matt,
I know that "musculotendonous system" is apparently infuriating to you, but it's the system that controls body movement... so even with your consistent "musculotendonous system" answers, which you thought vague, you were right in every case.




Ehh...... thanks Grady. I know. That was the point. Guess you didn't get the sarcasm. Sarcasm is a satirical or ironic point that controls much of my forum movement.

Quote:

As for "no detail at all", I don't necessarily disagree, but I think what Eyrie was intending to do was to have everyone interested to do a little research and gain a basis of understanding.




No.....I don't think so. In case you and Eyrie didn't know, I have been doing martial arts for over 23 years and weight-lifting for almost 25. I have a clue what the "musculotendonous system" is, and was really wondering what exactly Eyrie was "pointing" us at in that field. That answer was simply intentionally vague and purposefully (as Eyrie has admitted in other cases) lacking detail.

Check Gavin's response a few posts back. That was very informative and detailed in a manner that was non-condescending and understandable.

Quote:

These are not questions with "yes" and "no" answers, and long detailed explanations to someone who has no basis of understanding the information would be useless...




Again, how about you guys take a chance that my teeny-tiny pea-brain might just be able to orient itself in the face of yall's voluminous knowledge.

Impossible to tell if no answer is ever given in the first place.

Quote:

You also have to want to hear an answer in what you are told.




Actually, any half-way decent answer will do. Even *gasp* "I don't know".

Quote:

Over the years, I've driven all day and night to attend a class, and slept on the dojo floors to be there for instruction. Nobody spoon-fed me what I needed to learn, I had to dig it out for myself, and being a "keyboard master" isn't the way to learn anything.




OK....... No idea what your point is there. I have put in the time myself, and continue to do so.

Quote:

There's a lot of good information on this site, but even if you remembered it all, and could recite it verbatim, you wouldn't be any better of a martial artist. It's the practice and the skills that you gain training that matter...




But I have practiced things that I have learned about here, so you can learn from the forum......if you want to.

Quote:

How much anyone knows or is willing to let out to the public is "their decision", so just because you don't get an answer you are satisfied with doesn't mean the person you ask doesn't know.




I agree. It just makes them ironically obtuse, considering that information exchange is THE POINT of this forum. To answer every question here with "go find some training" is pointless.

Quote:

I've had teachers "put me on the right path" to learn a lot of things, and for the most part it's worked...




That's really all I'm asking.

Quote:

which I might or might not be willing to share just because somebody asked. I did a lot of work to learn what I know, and nobody else is entitled to it just because they're curious... I will, however, "put them on the right path" to find out... and on this particular subject, have done so several times already.




I agree that you have been open about aswering questions, Grady.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#368489 - 11/12/07 08:22 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

As for "no detail at all", I don't necessarily disagree, but I think what Eyrie was intending to do was to have everyone interested to do a little research and gain a basis of understanding.


Thank you. I thought it was plainly obvious... without some basis for shared understanding, the discussion usually degenerates into a "word game" - like the one being played out here and on other threads related to this topic. And quite frankly I don't see the point of typing a whole bunch of information; information that can be quite readily gleaned from various online and off-line resources, should people who are inclined to, and are interested in discussing the finer points of that information.

I am not interested in discussions where A is (supposedly) true, B is questionable, therefore B is false, and some sort of burden of proof (where no formal evidence is easily obtainable) is shifted and required by one party. To me that's intellectual masturbation.... some people might relish it, but I find it a waste of time.

Quote:

I did a lot of work to learn what I know, and nobody else is entitled to it just because they're curious... I will, however, "put them on the right path" to find out...


Precisely... knowledge and understanding are like making pearls... it takes many years to a lifetime to foment, and the porcine have no use for them. Personally, I think "less is more". It very quickly weeds out those who are genuinely interested, and want to dig deeper, and those who are gunning for you to slip up so they can discredit you in order to elevate themselves - IMO the lowest form of self-elevation.

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#368490 - 11/12/07 08:51 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
So - Matt is a blackbelt in sarcasm.

WT is a blackbelt in knowing without knowing and willing to share if you understand.

eyrie is a blackbelt in condescending non-information giving and question dodging.

_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#368491 - 11/12/07 09:37 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

In case you and Eyrie didn't know, I have been doing martial arts for over 23 years and weight-lifting for almost 25. I have a clue what the "musculotendonous system" is, and was really wondering what exactly Eyrie was "pointing" us at in that field. That answer was intentionally vague and purposefully (as Eyrie has admitted in other cases) lacking detail.


Let's be clear... my answer was directed at Ed, not you. And personally, I don't see what your tenure in the MAs have anything to do with this; it's irrelevant.

Grady has already answered this question. The meridians are a rough map (a working model if you like) which overlay a number of internal structures - nervous, lymphatic, circulatory and the musculo-tendinous systems. There is no direct correlation to a specific internal structure from a MWM viewpoint, because the meridian model is wholistic and treats it as being inter-related. The musculo-tendinous system is probably the closest you will get to mapping the meridians - which by the way, isn't really a line on the body surface, more like an series of semi-connected "channels" internally.

These channels are made up of a mesh-like webbing of connective tissues that bear no resemblance of any sort of tube like structure. IOW, the word "channels" is really a word used to convey an idea, rather than a physical description of an actual entity.

Some of these channels connect internally to other channels via the connective tissue and fascia layers, and to the viscera. So, affecting any access points (e.g. acupuncture points, nerve points and "points" which don't exist), on the surface, can indirectly affect the internal organs. There is some research (albeit only from a neuro-physiological standpoint) that indicates affecting certain surface areas, which happen to coincide with acupuncture points (e.g. on the thoracic and abdominal areas), can affect the internal organs in that area.

An example of how this might extrapolate to a martial application is hitting LU5 towards the person's wrist. This causes the the body to lurch forward, BUT the head is thrown back, thereby exposing the neck. Logically, one might think that the body and head should both lurch forward as a result, so why does it get thrown back? It has to do with the musculo-tendinous connections, the golgi tendon organs and stretch reflex, and why a large part of IMA training is breathing and "standing" practice - in order to train and develop the strength of the musculo-tendinous system, how it works with and against gravity, and the ability to exercise fine level control of such involuntary reactions.

If striking a body part can affect the neuro-muscular response, why is it so hard to believe that extrapolating that to other internal bodily systems has the potential to cause similar, if not worse, functional responses?

The point I am trying to make is, this information is readily available from various on-line and off-line resources - if one can be bothered to do a little bit of research, analysis, thinking and extrapolation. Rather than taking an argumentative stance and trying to disprove something and discredit someone, on a topic that you obviously know nothing about, and are not really interested in knowing. If it's just argument for argument's sake, why would it be necessary for anyone to provide any information? You win... it's that's simple.

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#368492 - 11/12/07 10:03 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

I don't see what your tenure in the MAs have anything to do with this; it's irrelevant.




Not totally. My studies in both MA and weight-lifting have included a fair bit of anatomy, on topic for discussion of pressure points or chi-meridians. You may or may not know that my studies in AKK included some basic PP work involving solar plexus, brachial plexus, triple warmer, radial/ulnar nerves.......etc. I have never disputed that they exist or that they can be affected. My point of contention has been how reliably they could be used under pressure.

Quote:

If striking a body part can affect the neuro-muscular response, why is it so hard to believe that extrapolating that to other internal bodily systems has the potential to cause similar, if not worse, functional responses?




Not debating that point in particular. The delayed stuff? Not sure about that. But I have seen instant effects from some stuff in demos, and even in fights. But not reliably in fights. Even well-known points like the Solar Plexus are difficult to get under pressure. That is what I'm saying.

Quote:

The point I am trying to make is, this information is readily available from various on-line and off-line resources - if one can be bothered to do a little bit of research, analysis, thinking and extrapolation.




Fair enough, and I do honestly appreciate the detailed post you did above. You have given me enough direction to be able to "aim" my research much more efficiently. Just telling me to read an anatomy book is not really helpful without giving me a bit more to go on. Especially when I *have* read anatomy books before.

Quote:

Rather than taking an argumentative stance and trying to disprove something and discredit someone, on a topic that you obviously know nothing about, and are not really interested in knowing.




Ah, darn. You were really doing well up until there.

You have inaccurately described my goals, experience and interest. But don't worry. I am confident you can learn to not be so arrogant as to try to read my mind.

In all seriousness, thanks for the good post.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#368493 - 11/12/07 10:13 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
no matter the distraction, I'll stay on topic to see what happens.

btw, some sidenotes.

* "Dim Mak" does not translate to 'death touch' the literal translation is "artery press".

* In ancient Chinese medicine terminology, there was no distinction between the words 'artery' 'vessel' or 'nerve' ... "artery" in the ancient meaning, was simply a passageway.

* The word for 'blood' in Japanese, is 'Chi'. Whereas 'Ki' does not mean energy, it is closer to the meaning 'intent' or 'mindset'.



one of the biggest issues I have with meridian-based theory, is it's lack of imperical external effect. This is illustrated by accupunture studies which show that a skilled accupuncturists vs. a person randomly placing needles but posing as an expert, in double blind tests, demonstrate near equal 'results' in patient feedback.

One study doesn't say much, but study after study is pretty damning against meridian theory in general.

however...

lets face it, trama to some points on the body hurts more than others...and in particular, anyone iron-training their fingers and grip will be able to nearly poke a hole in you or grab your rib for instance...causing crippling pain.

but does that prove or is facilitated by meridian theory? not necessarily. we know how iron-training works. and we know points hurt more than others. someone who has trained just those two things (conditioning and targeting sensitive areas), would be able to provide for a very convincing demo.

after convincing the students, then the unsupportive baggage can be piled on. 'This point will cause death', 'this point will cause kidney failure in 24-hours', 'this point will cause the person to have diarreha on the next full moon', etc. Giving the student the feeling of receiving some ancient and secret knowledge larger than mundane reality (ie: 'special powers'), when all they really need is hard work and targeting areas that hurt....which also exists in other arts which have no superimposed notions of meridian theory.

boxers don't train to target a point on a meridian, they simply target the chin. with same results.

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#368494 - 11/12/07 10:34 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Eyrie, sorry for just hitting the last link...I'm pi$$ed...

Mattj-
Go to www.taichiworld.com find the "downloads" link, and when you go to the downloads page, download the Point location book and the Muscle and Meridian Chart. The information you want is there... read it... burn it... or wipe with it... I'm too busy to take time to read it to you... but I "want you to know" anything you need to know about Dim Mak points.

But the book only shows you half of the information. You have to know the acupuncture and kappo techniques to revive a victim and shortcut the organ damage. You want information, there's about 200 pages of it, readily available and free...tells you all the damaging effects of Dim Mak strikes... killing, paralyzing, sickening... whatever floats your boat.

If you want a "training regimen" for it, start by learning a point a day, and then it's corresponding set-up point or "star point" to open the meridian. I would suggest you do this with a qualified instructor who's also an acupuncturist, as you can cause all kinds of health problems just screwing around with "what you know".

In case you're confused by the terminology, a "cun" is the distance between the end of your finger and the crease in the first joint... just so you can judge the distances correctly.

Quote:

Again, how about you guys take a chance that my teeny-tiny pea-brain might just be able to orient itself in the face of yall's voluminous knowledge.




You're welcome to be a sarcastic jackass if you wish. I wasn't condescending to you in what I said, I was actually trying to help you, and put into perspective the information that had already been given. You just automatically dismissed any answers that were given, or attributed them as attacks, and didn't make any effort to relay any information in the other direction, so don't jump me about your "pea sized brain". That's your problem, not mine. Normally, people who ask for help don't bite the people who respond to help them, but not so in this discussion...

Come to think of it, I think I'll reserve my discussions from now on to the weather... there's always sunshine somewhere and it's always raining somewhere else... and you don't have to agree with what I tell you... you can make it up as you go along.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#368495 - 11/12/07 10:39 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Not totally. My studies in both MA and weight-lifting have included a fair bit of anatomy, on topic for discussion of pressure points or chi-meridians.


Let me rephrase... I don't think "how long" you have spent in MA is at all relevant to the discussion. Sure, "what" you studied (formally or otherwise) is certainly relevant...
Quote:

You may or may not know that my studies in AKK included some basic PP work involving solar plexus, brachial plexus, triple warmer, radial/ulnar nerves.......etc. I have never disputed that they exist or that they can be affected. My point of contention has been how reliably they could be used under pressure.


Funny... this hasn't been brought up till NOW. You brought up all sorts of other $h!t though...

Quote:

Not debating that point in particular. The delayed stuff? Not sure about that. But I have seen instant effects from some stuff in demos, and even in fights. But not reliably in fights. Even well-known points like the Solar Plexus are difficult to get under pressure. That is what I'm saying.


Why wouldn't the "delayed stuff" be even plausible? How long before the symptoms of an internal hematoma manifests itself? How about herniated muscle tissue? Before it becomes a problem? Minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks? Months? We're not talking about "black magic" - we're talking about a living, breathing organism and its ability to deal with physical trauma.

As for using this "under pressure", that's a function of skill - yours and theirs, and only represents a very small percentage of total fighting capability. I don't see how using it "under (any sort of) pressure" is at all relevant to how and why it works generally, when application is a function of ability, not of working knowledge.

Quote:

Especially when I *have* read anatomy books before.


I've read mine several times, and still find new things... and new directions.

Quote:

Ah, darn. You were really doing well up until there. ...You have inaccurately described my goals, experience and interest. But don't worry. I am confident you can learn to not be so arrogant as to try to read my mind.



The comment was directed at people who have shown themselves to consistently twist the facts, just to argue for argument's sake. Perhaps you could learn to be a little less conceited to think that I was referring to you specifically.

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#368496 - 11/12/07 11:14 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: BrianS]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

So - Matt is a blackbelt in sarcasm.

WT is a blackbelt in knowing without knowing and willing to share if you understand.

eyrie is a blackbelt in condescending non-information giving and question dodging.






This has NOTHING to do with the on-going "discussion", but my understanding, after more than a couple of decades in the MA, is that a black belt only signifies that a person has only mastered the basics (and in this sense beginners) and is just being given the road-map to do more research and thus hopefully gain higher levels of knowledge and skills.

Eyrie,

Quote:

eyrie is a blackbelt in condescending non-information giving and question dodging




Nah..., you are at most only a yellow belt with green tip. You have soooooo much more to learn. When you are ready for your BB testing, let me know and I'll be willing to offer (even if Ed disputes it) some winning tips.

So meanwhile, perhaps you might see your way to debunk your BB status and condescendingly provide some information or at least point me in the right direction for in-depth research into the theory and practice of "intellectual masturbation" Has it anything to do with the "musculotendonous system"?
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#368497 - 11/12/07 11:18 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: ButterflyPalm]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Duh Butterflypalm! You were supposed to look at it and chuckle and then go on!!! Sheesh homeskillet!! You weren't supposed to overanalyze it and make me feel like a heeeeeelllll!!!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#368498 - 11/12/07 11:34 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Why wouldn't the "delayed stuff" be even plausible? How long before the symptoms of an internal hematoma manifests itself? How about herniated muscle tissue? Before it becomes a problem? Minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks? Months? We're not talking about "black magic" - we're talking about a living, breathing organism and its ability to deal with physical trauma.




Bingo!
I really wonder how many of these mooks get deathly ill overnight? Injury, infections, organ damage can take weeks or months to manifest themselves, much less cause death or the need for surgery... but somehow, the deterioration of health caused by a trauma to a nerve center, blood vessel, or lymphatic node, etc. is somehow "mysterious"? We have people who die weeks after auto accidents all the time, whose sole injury was a blow to the chest where they hit the steering wheel... or where their head popped forward and struck their foreheads on the dashboard or front window... but a similar strike by a person attacking someone "wouldn't" cause that???

Ed finally got part of it right... the original "dim mak" was an attack to the circulatory system. Causing embolisms, and hematomas "back in the day" were serious injuries, and blood clots caused deaths that looked like heart attacks. What doesn't get advertised much is that there were also some dim mak weapons, such as bamboo needles used to cause infections, etc. ... directly affecting , (you guessed it) the circulatory system.

Now I may not have mentioned that more than 10 or 12 times in these discussions, but at least it was verified by "independent research" on Ed's part... I feel better now...

This really is the slow-learners class...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#368499 - 11/12/07 11:37 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: ButterflyPalm]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Eyrie,

Quote:

eyrie is a blackbelt in condescending non-information giving and question dodging




Nah..., you are at most only a yellow belt with green tip. You have soooooo much more to learn. When you are ready for your BB testing, let me know and I'll be willing to offer (even if Ed disputes it) some winning tips.

So meanwhile, perhaps you might see your way to debunk your BB status and condescendingly provide some information or at least point me in the right direction for in-depth research into the theory and practice of "intellectual masturbation" Has it anything to do with the "musculotendonous system"?


BP, you give me too much credit... yellow belt with green tip? More like white belt with no tip.

Look I don't profess to know anything. Sometimes I will throw out a little of what I think I *might* know and see if anyone at a much higher level can pick it up and point me in other directions or either affirm or deny if I am on the right track. I don't throw out stuff so that it can be ripped apart and scrutinized word-for-word literally, by people who love flogging dead horses.

There ya go... the Eyrie BB myth debunked. I don't engage in intellectual masturbation or masturbation of any sort (conserve the "jing" and all that old wives' rubbish you know). I'll just say, too much masturbation *could* be bad for your musculo-tendonous system. But hey, what do I know...???

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#368500 - 11/13/07 12:26 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: BrianS]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Duh Butterflypalm! You were supposed to look at it and chuckle and then go on!!! Sheesh homeskillet!! You weren't supposed to overanalyze it and make me feel like a heeeeeelllll!!!





As you might have gueesed by now, I don't read minds, though I do read the odd anatomy material published by Playboy Magazine. My only complaint is the overwhelming emphasis on the female anatomy. Perhaps Wristtwister might know some other material in his vast store of anatomy related material that are male oriented, or a relevant Website?

Eyrie,

Quote:

I'll just say, too much masturbation *could* be bad for your musculo-tendonous system




I see you are improving; at least you didn't say hairs will start to grow on the palms of the hands, as this will surely open up yourself for an attack from "someone" who might insist on laboratory-quality evidence/data.

Please don't let this off-topic diversion stop the present train of thought and derail a very interesting discussion, most of it anyway.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#368501 - 11/13/07 12:53 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

the original "dim mak" was an attack to the circulatory system. Causing embolisms, and hematomas "back in the day" were serious injuries, and blood clots caused deaths that looked like heart attacks. What doesn't get advertised much is that there were also some dim mak weapons, such as bamboo needles used to cause infections, etc. ... directly affecting , (you guessed it) the circulatory system.



Why do you think the conceptual frameworks changed over the centuries from general notions of pathways, to circulatory system, to meridian system to energy flow ?


looking at it from the view of trend over the centuries - if you think of it as two separate but dependant currents of change, it roughly breaks into 1. the application/observation along with 2. the explaination/theory of that observation.


the further back in time, the more practical the application (attacking the blood lines), and the more spiritual explaination ('life force'). as you move forward to present time, you have a more spiritual application ('affecting ones life force') with an increacing western-science explaination ('attacking the nerve centers').


here's the trippy part: when I mentally plotted these 2 trends in my head, the resulting image was a flattened yin-yang symbol....which is the symbol for infinity.

whoa...am I seeing 'the matrix' ? or am I going blind from too much mental flogging? lol


(don't answer that )

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#368502 - 11/13/07 01:03 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: ButterflyPalm]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

As you might have gueesed by now, I don't read minds, though I do read the odd anatomy material published by Playboy Magazine. My only complaint is the overwhelming emphasis on the female anatomy. Perhaps Wristtwister might know some other material in his vast store of anatomy related material that are male oriented, or a relevant Website?


Uh.... you'd be wanting PlayGIRL or PlayGUY - NOT PlayBOY...

Quote:

I see you are improving; at least you didn't say hairs will start to grow on the palms of the hands, as this will surely open up yourself for an attack from "someone" who might insist on laboratory-quality evidence/data.


If that were the case, it could be the answer to male-patterned baldness too!

The most you would get is weak legs and RSI in the wrist... and I would recommend some soothing gel... for the chaffing. Tiger Balm usually stops the problem from recurring... usually with rather dramatic results.

But I digress....

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#368503 - 11/13/07 04:14 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:


Why do you think the conceptual frameworks changed over the centuries from general notions of pathways, to circulatory system, to meridian system to energy flow ?




The reason for the ongoing changes in the framework is, IMO, due to the natural evolution of the human condition and the environment and lifestyle in which it passes through in daily life. Our lives today are far different from that of our peers of 200 years ago. Many work when they should be sleeping. Many work too hard. Many are stressed. We have switched from natural foods to highly refined mass produced rubbish. The way we run the engine that is the human body has change beyond recognition, as has the fuel that we stick in it to run it. Any framework you use will have to move with the times to be flexible enough to keep with the needs and conditions presented by the patient. Western medicine changes every 5 minutes, why wouldn't eastern do the same?

Quote from Ed in the other page:

Quote:



one of the biggest issues I have with meridian-based theory, is it's lack of imperical external effect. This is illustrated by accupunture studies which show that a skilled accupuncturists vs. a person randomly placing needles but posing as an expert, in double blind tests, demonstrate near equal 'results' in patient feedback.

One study doesn't say much, but study after study is pretty damning against meridian theory in general.





Study after study? Are we hamming this point up matey? A quick google turned this up. A summary of various clinical trials done using control groups in various studies...some mixed findings, but an interesting read neither the less:

http://www.acupunctureinmedicine.org.uk/servearticle.php?artid=549

I've not read a lot of Acupuncture research, but I've skimmed through a few journals from the area and have never seen a study where unskilled people were allowed to randomly stick needles in people. That sort of study would have serious ethical considerations for an acupuncturist I would imagine.

Quote:

here's the trippy part: when I mentally plotted these 2 trends in my head, the resulting image was a flattened yin-yang symbol....which is the symbol for infinity.





I think we'll only see more and more synthesis of world thinking. MWM is creating problems as quickly as it is solving, but that is the nature of evolution and need creates necessity. There is far more to OM than placebo, can I prove it using statistic or studies? Not a chance at the moment...as I said previously its the result that interests me first and this year I've put in well over a 100 hours of treatments and can say without a doubt that it does make a difference, and a hell of a difference. If anyone could do what I do by randomly poking and prodding why are so many people walking round and suffering from chronic conditions that could be quite easily rectified using alternative medicine?

As I said before I love the western stuff, and go into a lot more detail than I'll ever be able to post on a forum to understand the inner workings, but at the end of the day its consistent results that sway it for me. Whether anyone believes me on the forum is irrelevant, its the people who keep coming through the door that count for me.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#368504 - 11/13/07 05:21 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I'm sure you've been over the same ground a few times Gav. It isn't the East-West dichotomy that is the issue here. It's reconciling the difference between reductionism and wholism.

I think, at the end of the day, there are thinkers, doers and tyre-kickers. The tyre-kickers want more data before they will be convinced, and then some more data for good measure. Analysis is a good thing, but lets not put the "anal" into "analysis"....

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#368505 - 11/13/07 05:39 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Totally agree with you mate. Just found this film on WoMA.tv, it's a full shiatsu treatment and well worth watching. His style, explanations and everything are so similar to my thoughts and the way my Shatisu is developing its scary. Well worth watching:

http://woma.tv/woma/videos/show/206/in/channel/4953
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#368506 - 11/13/07 08:14 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Grady -

Quote:

You're welcome to be a sarcastic jackass if you wish. I wasn't condescending to you in what I said, I was actually trying to help you, and put into perspective the information that had already been given.




Indeed. I realize now that you probably did not mean to be intentionally consdescending. My sarcasm was more biting than it should have been.


Quote:

You just automatically dismissed any answers that were given, or attributed them as attacks, and didn't make any effort to relay any information in the other direction, so don't jump me about your "pea sized brain". That's your problem, not mine. Normally, people who ask for help don't bite the people who respond to help them, but not so in this discussion...




I did automatically dismiss vague, insulting tripe, as I have always done. Helpful answers I appreciate and respect.


Eyrie -


Quote:

Rather than taking an argumentative stance and trying to disprove something and discredit someone, on a topic that you obviously know nothing about, and are not really interested in knowing.




Quote:

The comment was directed at people who have shown themselves to consistently twist the facts, just to argue for argument's sake. Perhaps you could learn to be a little less conceited to think that I was referring to you specifically.




Note that you used the word YOU in a direct response to ME. Logical to conclude that YOU were referring to ME in that context. Glad to know that you guys haven't taken any of this personal. Or not.

porcine mooks jackass conceited slow-learners spoon-fed keyboard-masters

Have a nice day.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#368507 - 11/13/07 09:01 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I'm sure you could find a bunch of studies which coincidently support what they are selling for a living. One thing that is consistant, is people defending their investments and salary.


but what's the worst that can happen from the Meridian Industry? placebo and a relaxing massage? not bad at all. on par with a naive serviceman falling in love when he hears 'me love you long time, you my numbah one boom-boom' in a southeast Asian brothel during shore leave. pleasantly deceptive to him perhaps, but hardly a wide-spread epidemic.


It's not like the meridian-based market is causing oil spills, poison-coated toys, depopulating cultures with Dim Mak-related deaths or anything.

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#368508 - 11/13/07 09:20 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

I'm sure you could find a bunch of studies which coincidently support what they are selling for a living. One thing that is consistant, is people defending their investments and salary.




That's the point I was trying to make Ed. Everyone has something to defend. Western Medicine is fighting within its ranks. I'd actually be far more skeptical of a drug company saying our research show that Company X is producing pills that don't work and Company X would then produce a study to counter that study and prove that their pills are the bestest greatest pills ever made. Three years down the line we find out that X's pills actually cause Liver failure.

I was just addressing your rather sweeping about "study after study" and that I would be very interested in seeing a study were legit acupuncturists knowingly took part in a study where unqualified people randomly needled people. The Acupuncturists I know actually have an extremely stringent regulations imposed on them and even a minor infraction will cause them to be stripped of their practice license.

Quote:

but what's the worst that can happen from the Meridian Industry? placebo and a relaxing massage? not bad at all. on par with a naive serviceman falling in love when he hears 'me love you long time, you my numbah one boom-boom' in a southeast Asian brothel during shore leave. pleasantly deceptive to him perhaps, but hardly a wide-spread epidemic.




This is kind of the conclusion I've come to. I get results doing what I do. If its Chi doing the work or subtle physiological change going on is irrelevant really, people go away happier and feeling better than when they came in. With this in mind, at the very worst I'm going to be making a living make peoples lives happier. I can live with that.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#368509 - 11/13/07 09:45 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
can I give the tactical answer of: "I'm not going to do your research for you"? j/k I'm not like that. I don't pull stuff out of my butt, then tell you to fend for yourself.

here is a pathway for further research in past case studies:
http://skepdic.com/acupunc.html
Quote:


researchers can use the Von Korff Chronic Pain Grade Scale questionnaire and the back-specific Hanover Functional Ability Questionnaire (for back pain studies) to measure changes in back pain after various kinds of treatment. For example, a randomized, blinded study involving over 1,100 subjects with chronic back pain were given different treatments and evaluated after six months using both the Von Korff and the Hanover instruments. The study compared treatment by (1) acupuncture using traditional acupuncture points and methods, (2) acupuncture that used non-traditional points and methods (the needles weren't inserted as deeply or twirled as in traditional acupuncture, and (3) treatment involving drugs, exercise, and physical therapy. About twice as many in the groups stuck with needles responded to the treatment as in the non-needle group. It did not matter whether they were stuck in traditional points using traditional methods or in non-standard points using non-traditional methods. About 45% responded in these groups compared to about 25% in the group treated with drugs, exercise, and physical therapy. According to the BBC:

The researchers, from the Ruhr University Bochum, say their findings suggest that the body may react positively to any thin needle [censored] - or that acupuncture may simply trigger a placebo effect.*

The results of this and another study that found no difference in response from those getting so-called verum (or "true") acupuncture and so-called minimal (or "sham") provide evidence against the accuracy of the traditional Chinese meridians map. It doesn't seem to matter where you stick the needles or whether you stick them in deeply or twirl them. But those with back pain who get stuck with needles respond at a significantly higher rate to the treatment than those who do not get needled. The concept of chi seems superfluous in this context.


That the effect is likely a placebo effect is supported by the results of another recent study done at Linköping University in Sweden involving "215 patients with various types of cancer who got either active acupuncture or a sham treatment that involved an identical looking and feeling needle that retracted into the handle on contact with the skin."* This method prevents the patients from knowing whether they've actually been stuck with a needle. The patients were given conventional radiotherapy during the trials. Many believers in acupuncture think it is effective in relieving nausea. Both the verum and the sham groups believed the treatment had been invasive and effective in reducing nausea: "68 percent of patients who got the acupuncture experienced nausea for an average of 19 days during radiotherapy and 61 percent of the patients who got the sham treatment suffered nausea for an average of 17 days....Vomiting was experienced by 24 percent of the patients getting acupuncture and 28 percent of patients receiving the sham treatment....Fifty-eight of the patients received chemotherapy in combination with radiotherapy. Among them, 82 percent of those in the acupuncture group developed nausea, compared with 80 percent of those treated with the sham needles....66 percent of patients who got acupuncture and 71 percent who got the sham treatment said they would be highly interested in having acupuncture again if it turned out they needed another course of radiotherapy." The differences between the two groups are not statistically significant. These results strongly suggest that acupuncture provides a placebo effect.


Some of the acupuncture studies supported by the Office of Alternative Medicine at the National Institutes of Health try to mimic traditional control group studies, but no control study will reveal if chi was unblocked or if yin and yang are in or out of harmony.





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#368510 - 11/13/07 10:14 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
So my study cancels your study out then!

This is quite an interesting website:

http://www.modernacupuncture.co.uk/index.htm

I've read some interesting stuff on neuro-acupuncture in the past which is quite an interesting field of research.

Just looking over the UK Shiatsu Societies website has some interesting research papers on it as well. Cramming for exams at the moment so don't have the time to look through them, but they're here:

http://www.shiatsusociety.org/public/research/research_overview.shtml

All nice intellectual asides....
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#368511 - 11/13/07 10:20 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Must get back to studying but this is classic, haven't actually read the article but the title cracked me up "Healing Dim Mak- How Dim Mak Improves Your Health". Now we have the "Healing Death Touch"...nice oxymoron!



http://www.dimmakworld.com/?do=viewArticleItem&articlesId=31
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#368512 - 11/13/07 11:18 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
hey...maybe you can be the first to offer "d34dly 5tr33t Shiatsu"


"dunno what happened officer, I was just standing waiting for the train and just reacted when I saw the guy suspiciously muscle spasm...my instict took over and I applyed a 3-finger pinching kneed to UB10 for several minutes....how did I know he'd lose control of his bladder onto the 3rd rail?!"



hey, btw, did you ever see this :
http://www.lulu.com/content/349434

cool huh?

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#368513 - 11/13/07 05:38 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


Quote:

Rather than taking an argumentative stance and trying to disprove something and discredit someone, on a topic that you obviously know nothing about, and are not really interested in knowing.




Quote:

The comment was directed at people who have shown themselves to consistently twist the facts, just to argue for argument's sake. Perhaps you could learn to be a little less conceited to think that I was referring to you specifically.




Note that you used the word YOU in a direct response to ME. Logical to conclude that YOU were referring to ME in that context. Glad to know that you guys haven't taken any of this personal. Or not.


Well, Matt, if YOU want to take it literally that you means YOU specifically, rather than generically, that's YOUR prerogative. If YOU can't tell the difference, it's not MY problem. Besides, if YOU aren't even remotely guilty of taking such a stance, then why are YOU even bringing it up?

As for taking it personally, it's water off a duck's back. But that doesn't necessarily mean that I would be more inclined to share.

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#368514 - 11/13/07 05:57 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

As for taking it personally, it's water off a duck's back. But that doesn't necessarily mean that I would be more inclined to share.




I've noticed.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#368515 - 11/13/07 06:12 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: MattJ]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
*cough* Gong Sau *cough*
_________________________
"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

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#368516 - 11/13/07 07:08 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Raul Perez]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Well, Matt, would YOU share if someone kept ripping into YOUR every word and tearing it apart so they can play their pissy word games? Quid Pro Quo. So far I haven't seen any substantive contribution from YOU other than your goading me to provide information. Now that I have, what's your analysis? Quid Pro Quo.

Raul, do you have something more substantive to contribute other than your surreptitious prodding for a "talking hands" challenge? Otherwise, maybe you should just "sau pay"...

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#368517 - 11/13/07 07:36 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Eyrie,
we're dealing with people here that really don't want to learn anything or define anything. They're snipers. It's easy to take something like DM and snipe it when it's not taught to very many people. You and I know that there's a big difference between just knowing "pressure points" and the DM training, but for the uninitiated, they simply can't be trusted with the information. You can see what kind of a circus these clowns have created on this thread, so why would anybody want to share secrets with them? They can't even hold a civil discussion on the subject, much less be trusted with anything dangerous.

I gave Matt a link to a book that gives a good description of what each point in the meridian systems does when struck properly, but there's no information about the angles, depth of strike, or any of the chi information they would need to practice DM. I could point him to that as well, but why bother... it's all about being a big dog on the internet board to them. They actually have no interest in the subject... just throwing out smartass comments and sniping at the information if they don't like the answers.

If anybody is truly interested in a discussion of DM, they can drop me a PM or email me at wristtwister@hotmail.com, but it will be a slow process. Out here, there are more horses' a$$es than there are horses...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#368518 - 11/13/07 10:14 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
actually, if you re-read the thread, you'll see a pattern. Whenever the conversation gets taken thru the mud, it was initiated by you and/or eyrie.

no matter how frustrated you are it never needs to get personal, yet you and eyrie constantly take it there. (and I'm not sure why, since if you have confidence in what you do, then why would you care if people thought you are spewing bunk? although, it is probably hard to feel confident with something taken on faith and is unprovable).


help me imagine this Grady: we meet up for a friendly sharing. let's say you show DM striking training method. Much to your satisfaction, you demonstrate by causing pain via putting pressure on certian points while I'm standing there (or wrething like Luke in the end of star wars VI - whichever the case may be). cool. but it's nothing different from a presure point demo - some points hurt more than others - and some points are in slightly different areas than others between person-to-person. (which is why I find general area targets work just fine and the training method doesn't go to mush when things get messy).

so then you show how precise targeting can be used in SD. also cool, but is that DM? apparently, the only difference between DM and pressure point targeting is what YOU say the effects will be from a DM hit vs. a PP hit.

yes, nerve centers and critical areas can get hit which could increase the chance of shutting someone down quicker. but I'd venture to guess that a person who trains to target general sensitive/vulnerable areas, has just as much chance as hitting those sweet spots as a DM trained person during an all out.

therefore, if a true perception, making DM sortof theoretical baggage. but since it's not a provable kind of thing and we only EACH have our own version of common sense....and I'm afraid, the arguments you and eyrie have displayed are in the category of magical thinking.

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#368519 - 11/13/07 10:31 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

actually, if you re-read the thread, you'll see a pattern. Whenever the conversation gets taken thru the mud, it was initiated by you and/or eyrie.


If you're going to stir up mud and drag my name thru it....

Quote:

the arguments you and eyrie have displayed are in the category of magical thinking.


...then Please show me proof or evidence that my "arguments" are in the category of "magical" thinking? What have I said, and where did I say it, that would make you construe that it is "magical thinking". Or are you just twisting the facts again, just to take a swipe for oneupmanship?

It takes two to tango, Ed. Surely you don't expect people to take it lying down, while you snipe at and insult them from the peanut gallery?

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#368520 - 11/13/07 10:49 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
how has it been magical thinking? for starters the leaps to conclusion that it takes to go

from:
"if I hit this particular spot in training, it causes mucho pain to the uke."
to:
"therefore, I must have hit correctly the point on a meridian that my sensei says causes death....and he must be right since I can also see where that point is on an old Chinese meridian map which was drawn by an unknown author a 1000 years ago....plus the field of accupuncture uses meridian maps to work thier wonder treatments to help folks quit gambling and feel better about themselves...plus western medicine hasn't disproved meridian theory....ancient lost wisdom...whoa..."

kinda like that.

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#368521 - 11/13/07 10:58 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

how has it been magical thinking? for starters the leaps to conclusion that it takes to go

from:
"if I hit this particular spot in training, it causes mucho pain to the uke."
to:
"therefore, I must have hit correctly the point on a meridian that my sensei says causes death....and he must be right since I can also see where that point is on an old Chinese meridian map which was drawn by an unknown author a 1000 years ago....plus the field of accupuncture uses meridian maps to work thier wonder treatments to help folks quit gambling and feel better about themselves...plus western medicine hasn't disproved meridian theory....ancient lost wisdom...whoa..."

kinda like that.


Is that the best you can come up with!? Show me exactly where (please reference the exact posts) either Grady or I have said this???? Or anything to that effect...

If the best you can come up with is thinly veiled insults, vagaries and blatant twisting of the facts to suit your argument, then you must be positively moronic to think that no one is going to respond in a fashion of fighting fire with fire.

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#368522 - 11/13/07 11:04 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I paraphrased the jist of the logic flow...it was not a quote.


"therefore, I must have hit correctly the point on a meridian that my sensei says causes death"

grady said that everyone accepts an amount of faith from their sensei. when I agreed but showed that there are degrees of accepting, the point died.


"....and he must be right since I can also see where that point is on an old Chinese meridian map which was drawn by an unknown author a 1000 years ago"

There are plenty of old texts showing from crude to detailed hand-drawn maps. some authors are known, some unknown. no two maps that I've seen, match exactly. The concept of 'accepted points' or 'official points' or 'regulated points' is a new concept, worked out during the 1950's overhaul of CCM folk remedies to create the modern 'TCM' product you see today.

"....plus the field of accupuncture uses meridian maps to work thier wonder treatments to help folks quit gambling and feel better about themselves"

accupuncture and meridian-based wellness care does not cure. it serves to sooth, at best.


"...plus western medicine hasn't disproved meridian theory"
doesn't need to any more than it would need to disprove that massage feels good.


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#368523 - 11/13/07 11:09 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Eyrie,
we're dealing with people here that really don't want to learn anything or define anything.




That's probably the most condescending and arrogant post I've ever read. Right up there with unyu. Sheesh...


Quote:

I gave Matt a link to a book that gives a good description of what each point in the meridian systems does when struck properly, but there's no information about the angles, depth of strike, or any of the chi information they would need to practice DM. I could point him to that as well, but why bother... it's all about being a big dog on the internet board to them. They actually have no interest in the subject... just throwing out smartass comments and sniping at the information if they don't like the answers.





How can he learn from someone who talks down him? Is that the way you learned DM?
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#368524 - 11/13/07 11:10 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Not only is your logic faulty, but your thinking is equally sloppy.

If you are going to insinuate, take things out of context, and make such sweeping accusatory statements, then have the f**king decency to man-up and SHOW me EXACTLY where this was said.

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#368525 - 11/13/07 11:13 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

we meet up for a friendly sharing. let's say you show DM striking training method. Much to your satisfaction, you demonstrate by causing pain via putting pressure on certian points while I'm standing there (or wrething like Luke in the end of star wars VI - whichever the case may be). cool. but it's nothing different from a presure point demo - some points hurt more than others - and some points are in slightly different areas than others between person-to-person. (which is why I find general area targets work just fine and the training method doesn't go to mush when things get messy).






That is exactly how my pressure point studies have gone. They work good in a grappling situation to distract or just cause pain.

DM is unproveable.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#368526 - 11/13/07 11:14 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I added to previous post. also, which part of "it was not a quote" didn't you understand?

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#368527 - 11/13/07 11:26 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
So, I see, taking it out of context and putting your own interpretation on what someone else says gives you license to insult them? What sort of logic is that?

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#368528 - 11/14/07 12:00 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
"poetic license" ? kidding.

so I take it you are done discussing the points of the topic?


I think it's a valid argument which hasn't been adressed: with pressure/vital point based training it's obvious what the damage will be if it were full intent. With Dim Mak, you need faith that the point you are practicing is correct for the claimed effect.

so I'm still wondering, what qualifies as a success during training? inflicting pain at a certain point? fine, but how is that different from vital/pressure training? and does anything happen if you DO do it right? does the uke die? if not, how do you know it was correct? also, how many accidental deaths have there been during DM training? how many delayed failed kidneys? were the conditions pre-existing or were they training related? Shouldn't a responsible DM instructor make it a requirement for students to disclose their medical history? pre-existing conditions, I'd think, would be crucial to know.

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#368529 - 11/14/07 12:16 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
btw, I think these are very valid question even BEFORE stepping up on a mat with an instructor that is going to 'show' you Dim Mak.

let's say my teenagers (if they were let's say 17 years old) are interested in studying it with a suppossedly qualified instructor. I'd ask all these questions and more before letting them even step on the mat.

They are responsible questions directed to an Art that claims it can screw with people's health at will. you guys are claiming qualification in Dim Mak, so I expect responsible answers.
"seek an instructor" is not a responsible answer in this case, since it's important to know exacly the mechanisms used for training method BEFORE showing up at a DM class.

persuading people not to ask questions about this training method, doesn't put a very good light on the training....makes it rather 'shady'.

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#368530 - 11/14/07 01:55 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Raul Perez]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

*cough* Gong Sau *cough*




Gong Sau = to have hand "contacts"

Gong Hau = to have mouth ("hau") "contacts"

I think inspite of your...ehhh...urgings, the people involved are more inclined to do the latter, at least for the moment
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#368531 - 11/14/07 03:48 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
God dammit guys, I left this thread yesterday with what I saw as some meaningful dialog between myself and Ed (who thunk that would happen??? ) and it's nosed dived badly. I think in times past people on both sides of the fence have been total idiots in discussing subjects like this, myself included (apologies to Ed for times past! ), but I've really enjoyed some of the conversations recently. Can we lay down the arms, have a hug and continue the conversation please? Start a fresh, forget the past and proceed in a meaningful way?

I think Ed raised a really valid question here:
Quote:

I think it's a valid argument which hasn't been adressed: with pressure/vital point based training it's obvious what the damage will be if it were full intent. With Dim Mak, you need faith that the point you are practicing is correct for the claimed effect.

so I'm still wondering, what qualifies as a success during training? inflicting pain at a certain point? fine, but how is that different from vital/pressure training? and does anything happen if you DO do it right? does the uke die? if not, how do you know it was correct? also, how many accidental deaths have there been during DM training? how many delayed failed kidneys? were the conditions pre-existing or were they training related? Shouldn't a responsible DM instructor make it a requirement for students to disclose their medical history? pre-existing conditions, I'd think, would be crucial to know.




Having had acupuncture before, and having positive results from it, I believe the application of the conceptual framework upon which is built is valid and effective. However addressing chronic conditions, potentially life threatening ones is not addressed in a single sitting. It is usually done over a prolonged period of treatments that will readily be backed up by a course of herbs as well. My question would be, if the theory upon which both healing and destructive models are the same, how comes the destructive models work on a single sitting where as healing will take a prolonged course of treatments which is usually backed up with complimentary treatments such as herbs and dietary considerations to change the internal environment?

Also, it is my understanding that unless you severely break the extraordinary vessel (EV) structure you'll stand little chance of achieving the desired results of creating a large scale systemic failure of the energetic system to. I've only ever seen one book "The Western Bubishi" by Rand Cardwell that addresses the EV's from a martial point of view. I've never seen any Dim Mak charts showing the EV system. Admittedly some do have the points of EV system highlighted but not actually mapped out. I can see the logical and practical reasons for hiding this information on charts. Would I be correct in assuming that the EV's are the subject matter for Dim Mak striking as opposed to the classical 12 meridians used in "PP" striking?
_________________________
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Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#368532 - 11/14/07 04:08 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

so I take it you are done discussing the points of the topic?


Well, what's the point of discussing anything when you continually twist and turn the facts of what's been presented, and then proceed to snipe, insinuate and insult? That's not a discussion. And now you're trying to weasel out of having to back up your statements and accusations?

Quote:

With Dim Mak, you need faith that the point you are practicing is correct for the claimed effect.


These are YOUR words. Nobody said that, nor was this implied. Again, you are twisting the facts and being antagonistic.

Quote:

does the uke die? if not, how do you know it was correct? also, how many accidental deaths have there been during DM training? how many delayed failed kidneys? were the conditions pre-existing or were they training related?


If you are willing to volunteer and sign a waiver of liability, I'm sure Grady would be only too happy to oblige. Use your head. What do you think? Medically speaking, is it plausible that hitting somewhere hard enough in an area which provides you an access point to the internal systems is not going to cause *some* untold internal damage? Why would it be "faith-based" as you put it? Nobody said faith was involved. Only you.

Quote:

Shouldn't a responsible DM instructor make it a requirement for students to disclose their medical history? pre-existing conditions, I'd think, would be crucial to know.btw, I think these are very valid question even BEFORE stepping up on a mat with an instructor that is going to 'show' you Dim Mak.


And now you introduce a new parameter into your flimsy "argument"... what do you think? You think that might be a good idea?

Quote:

"seek an instructor" is not a responsible answer in this case, since it's important to know exacly the mechanisms used for training method BEFORE showing up at a DM class.


Remember one time when the standard answer here to noobs were "That's an interesting question.... My advice is to seek out a qualified instructor in your area". So what's different here?

Quote:

persuading people not to ask questions about this training method, doesn't put a very good light on the training....makes it rather 'shady'.


Again, you are twisting it up. Either you're intellectually challenged or insensitive or both. Nobody said you couldn't ask questions. It's the TONE and the WAY you're questioning that is the problem. It's not WHAT you're asking... it's HOW you're asking... Nobody likes an antagonistic smart arse or to be insulted by one. What's wrong with asking intelligently and nicely? Don't you think people will treat it (and you) more respectfully?

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#368533 - 11/14/07 04:20 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
PLEASE I WANT TO CARRY ON THIS CONVERSATION! Forget the bitching now, or take it PM. It's getting boring.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#368534 - 11/14/07 04:57 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Well, as long as someone continues to snipe at, insult, denigrate, insinuate, make broad sweeping statements, twist the facts, take things out of context, be deliberately antagonistic, and are not prepared to back up their accusations with evidence, and to do so on a public forum, then I think some of us are well within our rights to defend ourselves.

I wouldn't call that "bitching". But I am prepared to back down if someone is prepared to back off on the BS and innuendo. You want peace, I'll give you peace. But if you want the alternative... then keep on slinging the muck. If you wanna keep dishing it out, be my guest... just don't expect me to lie down, roll over and take it....

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#368535 - 11/14/07 09:08 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
ok eyrie, you are right. my appologies. can we move on and address the most recent questions?

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#368536 - 11/14/07 09:50 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
No appologies necessary, Gavin. You raise valid points as well: How can healing be wholistic and long-term, yet the destructive be pinpointed and immediate? sounds like two different systems are being affected - yet they draw from the same conceptual model.

It's these kinds of questions, and not hearing anything beyond 'because my sensei said so' which leads me to my pigheadedness on this.


To address the past point which was made about it not being inconceivable that hitting a junction of nerves would shut down an organ. yes, it is conceivable, but isn't it also conceivable that with ALL the full-contact sparring that goes on in training and competitions, that there are pretty good odds of hitting one of those magic buttons by chance? I think an article I read last year mentioned that there are less martial art deaths than skydiving.

To put that in perspective, more people die of getting struck by lightning than skydiving.


so if I were a betting man, if I saw two Dim Mak guys fighting in a thunderstorm...my money would be on a death caused by lightning rather than by Dim Mak.


The point about accidental deaths from blunt force to the chest are rare, but valid.
http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-lacros/spec-rel/030105aaa.html

Quote:

Impact directly over the cardiac silhouette (just left of the lower breastbone),
Impact involving a small part of the chest wall (as by a baseball),
Higher energy impacts
Impact occurring within a specific 10-30 millisecond portion of the cardiac cycle.

The timing of the impact is the most critical factor.




if timing is found to be the most critical factor, then how can a strike be timed within that 10-30 millisecond tolerance?

In humans, reaction time to visual stimuli is typically 10 times as slow (200ms). Even if you could see/perceive someone's heartbeat during the heat of battle, the chances of hitting at the critical moment is extreamly slim....which is why with the millons of baseballs hitting chests in a year gives only a few deaths. less likely than dying from lightning.

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#368537 - 11/14/07 10:06 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:


The point about accidental deaths from blunt force to the chest are rare, but valid.
http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-lacros/spec-rel/030105aaa.html

Quote:

Impact directly over the cardiac silhouette (just left of the lower breastbone),
Impact involving a small part of the chest wall (as by a baseball),
Higher energy impacts
Impact occurring within a specific 10-30 millisecond portion of the cardiac cycle.

The timing of the impact is the most critical factor.




if timing is found to be the most critical factor, then how can a strike be timed within that 10-30 millisecond tolerance?

In humans, reaction time to visual stimuli is typically 10 times as slow (200ms). Even if you could see/perceive someone's heartbeat during the heat of battle, the chances of hitting at the critical moment is extreamly slim....which is why with the millons of baseballs hitting chests in a year gives only a few deaths. less likely than dying from lightning.




This is an interesting article I book marked a while back. Confirms much of my own experience with tactile development. It's interesting to note that a monosynaptic reflex has a reaction time of around 30ms:

http://du.ahk.nl/mijnsite/papers/reactiontime.htm


Edited by Gavin (11/14/07 10:20 AM)
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#368538 - 11/14/07 11:36 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

So far I haven't seen any substantive contribution from YOU other than your goading me to provide information. Now that I have, what's your analysis? Quid Pro Quo.




Fair enough, although at this point, I don't have that much to contribute - that's why I have been asking questions.

IMHO, pressure points exist and can be manipulated in certain scenarios. Martial application is possible, although the fime motor skill and timing required to do so makes their effectiveness inversely proportional to the amount of resistance given by the opponent. While this is true of ALL martial arts techniques, the amount of control neccesary to do so is exponentially more than other, simpler techniques.

The overall effectiveness of these techniques versus other more simple/conventional techniques is also not clear. I do not yet know enough about situational uses for specific PP's or Dim-Mak. but I do know that regular strikes and grappling have a long and documented history of effectiveness in both competition and non-competition venues.

Dim Mak (IMHO) seems to be related to vital point studies that many other martial arts have. While I agree that some Dim Mak points would be painful or fatal, much of the current DM studies I have seen seem to be reverse-engineered to fit in with western medicine/anatomy.

With virutally no documentation of controlled studies of DM available, I see little point is pursuing that study over more conventional MA practices. I have no problem with folks that are interested from a stylistic/cultural point of view. But if effectiveness and reliability are considerations, there are more efficient things to work on. MHO.

_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#368539 - 11/14/07 05:47 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Fair enough, although at this point, I don't have that much to contribute - that's why I have been asking questions.


We're all asking questions... some people have different pieces of the puzzle...

I generally agree with the thrust of the rest of your post. Some knowledge of PP + VP can be useful. Applying it is a completely different proposition, and I would agree that training time would be better spent on the 95% of skills that one would usually call upon in a given situation.

Quote:

Much of the current DM studies I have seen seem to be reverse-engineered to fit in with western medicine/anatomy.


The issue is compounded by the fact that this knowledge (if it indeed existed) was mostly kept secret (for obvious reasons), and that it has now been lost and/or fallen by the wayside (due to lack of transmission). There may be a few people left in the world who ACTUALLY do know this stuff (I do not profess to be one of them), but they are few and far between. I understand Ed's concern regarding charlatans and frauds, but the only counter to that is to seek out and acquire whatever knowledge one can. This means doing your own research and validating it against what other people might know - it's the same in any field of study.

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#368540 - 11/14/07 06:55 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

How can healing be wholistic and long-term, yet the destructive be pinpointed and immediate? sounds like two different systems are being affected - yet they draw from the same conceptual model.


I guess the issue here is... is the model robust and reliable? Is it descriptive, prescriptive or predictive? I'm afraid that's something people will have to draw their own conclusions. I simply do not know enough to be able to comment.

At a guess, I will hazard that it may be some of the above, all of the above, or none of the above. It may be incomplete, given our (collective) knowledge of MWM. It may be complete, in it's own right - based on what people understood 5000 years ago. It may still be relevant, or it may not.

In any case, we are dealing with functional human systems, although the whole concept of what is "functional" is completely different in TCM, to how MWM views "functional". Because everything in TCM is related and inter-related, "function" has a different connotation and is "explained" by completely different "functional" concepts.

The body is a self-regulating, self-healing mechanism, and dependent on a number of external and internal factors - genetics, immunology, diet, exercise, lifestyle, etc. As we get older, our ability to self-regulate and heal slows down and regresses. A cut can be inflicted instantaneously, but it doesn't heal instantaneously. Herbs and other orally administered medications take time and repeated doses to take effect. That's just how the body works. Which is why we now have other, more "invasive" methods of sub-cutaenous, intravenous and inhalation drug delivery systems.

At the end of the day, we're simply dealing with a body of knowledge, and with any body of knowledge, further research and analysis adds to and detracts from it, refines it, deposes it, or supplants it. How much energy (no pun intended) you put into it is up to you.

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#368541 - 11/14/07 10:28 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Eyrie,
I'm going to try to play nice, but if this gets off in the dirt again, I'm totally out of the thread. Brian, sorry if you think that was condescending, but it's hard to carry on a conversation with people when all they do is tee off on you and ridicule whatever you say. That doesn't give me the idea they're trying to learn anything... they're just being a$$es.

Gavin, thanks for pulling things back together here. I also wanted to have some conversation, which was impossible between snipers... so here goes...

First of all, the assumption everyone appears to have is that it's as simple as "hitting a point" and somebody drops dead six days later. It's a hell of a lot more complicated than that...

Ed very snidely mentioned that today we were using a map drawn 500 years ago of the meridians, but how much of the human body has changed in the last 500 years, Ed... arms growing in different places? Legs located differently? Has your heart changed locations?.. obviously not... so why would the meridians change? The vagueness of the charts was intentional, and even deceptive in some cases to prevent anyone from "stealing the secrets" of the DM teacher's technique... and they were on scrolls, which allowed some latitude in how the information was actually charted.

Now, I'm sure that everyone that does karate or boxing, or any type of hitting art is proud of their punches... but what kind of energy do they deliver with them? If DM simply depended on force, the biggest guy in the class would be the most deadly... but it doesn't work that way. Like the commotio cortis article Ed cited, the strike also has to interrupt the snyaptic delivery of nerve messages to particular parts of the body, or create a "blockage" that prevents "ordinary transmission" of nerve information to interrupt organ functions. An ordinary punch won't work... and most "trained" karate people don't use punches that create "frequency operative" punches... they deliver a lot of force, but the residence time of their punch with the target dissipates any "frequency transmission" that takes part between parties. Piling one of them into the solar plexus or gastroneimus plexus will get the job done, but for the most part, DM is much more suttle than that, attacking specific areas with (for lack of a better term) a "fa jing" punch. If you don't understand that term, look on Tai Chi World's site and there is a video clip to teach you what it is... not necessarily how to do it.

A commonly overlooked characteristic of the body is that of the skeletal system, which is a perfect conductor of vibration. The systems that cause motion in the body are all connected to the skeleton, so the use of specific points in striking can be used to transmit vibration to those points that are connected to convergent tissue relating to specific organs and body functions. The "fingers" of nerve tissues all over the body are sensitive to the vibration in the bone structure, so while the "force to this point will knock you out", it is not only possible, but probable that strikes to sensitive points totally unrelated to where a strike occurs can cause an anomolie-type reaction by getting a "vibration message" from the bone structures rather than something by direct attack.

Ed was correct when he stated that dim mak actually means "to press on an artery"... for many of the techniques are designed to cause blood clots, strokes, etc. by using the circulatory system to "do the job". Again, the points haven't changed in the last 500 years, so if the technique is done correctly, it should work, unless there is medical intervention to remedy it... and a lot of the old methods DO have treatments today. The more "immediate death" techniques require attention almost immediately, but many of the techniques that once worked flawlessly (because of the lack of medical knowledge) are entirely reversible with care from the local emergency room.

Now, before you start thinking that ALL DM techniques are fixable, look at the hospital records of people with failing organs. A well-placed strike that, for instance, caused the liver to begin to disfunction, could cause an "avalanche effect" of organ failures if the victim resisted seeking treatment, or simply "waited too late" to seek treatment. "Code Blue" happens all the time to relatively healthy people in hospitals, so what makes it inconceivable in a DM victim? When this practice was most commonly used, the health of the population was quite predictable because the medical assistance available was limited... so it was pretty predictable that people would "die in 20 days" from "this strike" or in 90 days from "that strike"...

There is a lot of injury that can be caused by simply hitting "pressure points" which are coincident as DM points. The lung meridian is particularly sensitive, and repeated attacks to those areas can cause lots of both allergy, breathing, and lung problems if they are not treated, but if there are also injuries to (for instance) the liver meridian, then the general health of the person can deteriorate significantly.

The actual "legend" of the "death touch" never really existed... it was known as "poisoned hand death touch" because of it's predictable results, and was taught more significantly among tai chi systems and actually changed over to "kyusho" once it left the Chinese mainland... but a lot of the more secretive techniques were never transferred to "outsiders". The real DM involved very particular training in how to strike properly, how to deliver "vibrating" punches and strikes, and very closely guarded hitting points in the body to create the particular effects that the "master" of the system used to conduct his business.

That's all for right now... I'm tired of typing...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#368542 - 11/15/07 12:02 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
From a martial perspective, there's only 4 things of real interest which may or may not even be remotely related to the subject at hand:
1. Neurological disruption, paralysis or shutdown
2. Causing breathing difficulties or to stop it entirely
3. Arrhytmia, tachycardia, cardiac infarction and other cardio-vascular related dysfunction or arrest, including stroke, pulmonary embolism, aneurysm, arterial blockage, compression or collapse of arterial wall, blood pressure manipulation, - shock, syncope, dizziness etc. etc. etc. AND
4. Internal damage - herniation, tissue tears and ruptures, hematomas, internal hemorrhage, organ perforation, impairment of normal organ function, organ dysfunction and ultimately failure - possibly leading to cascade failure and shutdown of other internal systems etc.

Some points provide access to neuro-stimulation and pain reception. Some areas like the carotid sinus allow you to manipulate BP. Others provide access to affect the heart's electrical conduction system. And so on...

I think one could generally agree that, causing any sort of damage on any of these 4 levels, may be comparatively easier than reversing or rectifying the damage - if at all.

So, whether you believe the DM point-meridian model is beside the point. Fact is, the human body is generally designed the same way. The point-meridian model is simply a map... and a map is only useful if instructions went with it. This was another way of keeping secrets... even if the "map" fell into the wrong hands, without the oral transmissions, the map is virtually useless.

I still think it's pretty amazing that 5000 years ago, without the benefit of what we now know, through scientific and technological progress, that they were even able to map out points and meridians, and develop some sort of working model to describe the functional processes and inter-relationships involved in the workings of the human body.

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#368543 - 11/15/07 12:42 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
when you were trained in DM technique, what was the indicator, other than from the instructor, that you were doing it correctly?

also, I believe 'fajing' power generation is misunderstood....even by many folks in IMA. 'quivering palm' and all that folklore hype.

Even though the rapid muscle contraction along with simultaneous loosness is similar to a controlled twitch - the objective isn't to transmit vibration...it's to transmit mass at a high speed over a short distance. but let's say for the sake of argument that you are transmitting vibration. Am I to believe you can control the frequency of that vibration so that it interrupts the natural cycles of the body within the 20 millisecond window of when that typical cycle is susceptable? wouldn't that timing be left to chance with a very low probability? Assuming humans even can emit a frequency that high and with enough intensity to disrupt nerve signals, that is.

If that were true, then I wonder if there has been any accidental deaths when someone shuffles along a carpet and transmits a static shock when touching another person.

Maybe coupling that vibration theory along with static electricity is where they got the idea for the name 'human taser'?

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#368544 - 11/15/07 01:26 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

Ed very snidely mentioned that today we were using a map drawn 500 years ago of the meridians, but how much of the human body has changed in the last 500 years, Ed... arms growing in different places? Legs located differently? Has your heart changed locations?.. obviously not... so why would the meridians change? The vagueness of the charts was intentional, and even deceptive in some cases to prevent anyone from "stealing the secrets" of the DM teacher's technique... and they were on scrolls, which allowed some latitude in how the information was actually charted.





you contradict yourself. how can the maps be both accurate and intentionally vague?

anyway,
first you say that since the human anatomy hasn't changed. I agree, although health and disease suceptability are different...but the biggest difference is life expectancy. If people were only living till 35, there was a much greater chance that someone would happen to die of something after you hit them. after a few coincidences, the magical thinker could leap to the conclusion that his hit caused the death or deterioration in health.

but thats just hypothetical showing how magical thinking works - I'm not saying the Chinese came up with meridian charts as a result of happenstance...I at least give it more credit than that. however it's not entirely inconceivable that some details were filled in using that kind of thinking.


here is the largest disconnect in your logic - you say the old charts depict the same human body as we have today, therefore meridian theory is still valid. well...are you actually using the old charts? or are you using the revised charts from the 1950's which were altered to be more in line with modern anatomy knowledge? and is it my imagination, or did the number of points grow dramatically? modern detailed computer generated accupuncture charts have literally thousands of points...yet the charts they are based on have a few dozen crudely shown in freehand.

What body of emperical knowledge was used to extrapolate (or I should say interpolate) those new points? any ideas?

I know the answer. The Chinese government commissioned a team of CCM and MWM guys to come up with the new paradim of 'TMA'. The motivation for doing so after WWII? This did 2 things at once. It moved people in a direction who were unwilling to stop CCM in favor of western medicine. plus, it created a regulated industry. They first tried to move people away from CCM completely during the 1930's push to modernization - but that resistance plus WWII left them with having to comprimize. hence today in China, almost every hospital offers both (but of course not on equal ground) ...which I'm sure they had no idea would later become a billions of dollars export during a 'new age wellness lifestyle' trend.

many of the same chinese pharmeceudical companies that make stuff like viagra, rydilin and birth control to modern western hospitals around the world are also the very same labs making 'all natural' and 'Herbal' Gensing, Gan Mao Ling, and hair loss pills made from pulverized donkey-diicks.

I tell ya...they are shrewd in business and street-smart in the world-sense if they make billions exporting this stuff.


another really strange TCM 'pill' I saw in Japan... it was chips off a deer's hoof. it looked like shavings from a fingernail clipper - suppossedly take one of those a day and it 'prevents' liver disease. hey, after a heavy night of drinking a brand of sake that tasted like lighter fluid, I said what the 'ell and munched on one of those deer toenails. yep! it must have worked, I didn't get liver disease that day.

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#368545 - 11/15/07 01:49 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ed,
there's more than one way to skin a cat, but not many ways that the cat likes it...

You seem wrapped up in minutia and never see the whole picture of anything. I'm surprised you didn't pull out your study by the fraud police on acupuncture again (which is 17 years old) and wave it like the sword of Gideon...

You're overly concerned that "somebody can't do something", so to me that translates "I can't do it so it's impossible"... Maybe if you actually pulled off the role of total skeptic and actually tried to see beyond your reasons things can't be done, you'd get further along.

I taught an Aikido class tonight, and spent almost an hour getting people to do things we had told them to do dozens of times... they listened, and went right back to bending their arms the way they did before the class, stepping incorrectly, and trying to muscle techniques that only require proper body mechanics. The difference in the techniques is startling when you do it right, and most of the time, all I heard out of the students was "I can't"....

Maybe the difference in what I've learned over the years, and what you're skeptical of, is that I can follow directions, and repeat behaviors, so it looks amazing when you see me do it compared to somebody that doesn't follow the instructions. DM training was the same way... "strike at this angle, and hit this corresponding point..."

I won't go into the specifics of my punching techniques or the vibration generation, but they weren't "secret classes"... they were just good technique and done correctly. The only "magic" was in the results and in the ability to strike effortlessly.

I don't think I've ever stated that I controlled the vibration cycles of my punch (which I may or may not do), but that seems to be the only criteria you want to use for measuring whether or not the techniques would work. I don't know if you know anything about harmonics, but you can generate all kinds of vibration cycles harmonically that would probably fit the "commotio cordis" arrythmia criteria and cause heart problems. Nothing has just one frequency... if it has a frequency, it has a harmonic... and it also has a "dissipating harmonic" which dies off as the signal dies off... so it isn't just a matter of learning the "secret handshake" of the vibrating palm.

Roll up a newspaper tightly, and give yourself a whack on the arm or leg with it... then take a quarter inch dowel and pop yourself in the same place. Which one hurts? Both is the correct answer, but the frequency of the impacts is different, and the surface area affected is different... and unless all your muscles, bones, and nerves are neatly strung out in geometric patterns, you have to hit the right places to get the same effects even if you hit with the same tools.

The body is a fluid capsule, and traps vibration, so there is a lot of wave motion in the body that goes unnoticed unless know how to use it, and part of the DM training involves that particular base of knowledge as well... and unlike the acupuncture points being used for healing, the DM points are being used to shut down body systems and cause damage inside the body capsule... and contrary to popular belief, killing isn't the main thrust of DM. There are techniques to cause nausea, diarhhea, internal bleeding, constipation, mental problems... a whole raft of "body problems" which may or may not eventually lead to death. Several of the points in the head and carotid sinus are noted for being "stroke" points, and simply take advantage of the plaque or clots in your blood vessels to cause a stroke by hitting and causing it to dislodge. I'm sure the guys who discovered the points didn't have a clue why it worked, but it was consistently successful, so they didn't argue with the success. They simply put it on the chart.

You said
Quote:

the objective isn't to transmit vibration...it's to transmit mass at a high speed over a short distance


which is "your theory"... not mine. I have more than adequate skills to do the chore you're touting, but again you only understand force transmission as a punching skill... and it shows with that statement.

It's late, I'm tired, and maybe we'll continue sometime later on... another day. I need sleep.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#368546 - 11/15/07 02:20 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:


You seem wrapped up in minutia and never see the whole picture of anything. I'm surprised you didn't pull out your study by the fraud police on acupuncture again (which is 17 years old) and wave it like the sword of Gideon...

You're overly concerned that "somebody can't do something", so to me that translates "I can't do it so it's impossible"... Maybe if you actually pulled off the role of total skeptic and actually tried to see beyond your reasons things can't be done, you'd get further along.




once again, it's not necessary to cut me down to build your points. (people see right thru that tactic by now, so you can give it a rest.)

Quote:

Maybe the difference in what I've learned over the years, and what you're skeptical of, is that I can follow directions, and repeat behaviors, so it looks amazing when you see me do it compared to somebody that doesn't follow the instructions. DM training was the same way... "strike at this angle, and hit this corresponding point..."



I'm not sceptical of following directions. I'm skeptical of following them blindly. and your remark is very telling....all you need is to be told where and how to hit. thats it? the rest you just believe? "hit at this point at a 30 degree angle and the person will literally crap their pants with a violent diarreha spincter spasm." uh huh.

Quote:


I won't go into the specifics of my punching techniques or the vibration generation, but they weren't "secret classes"... they were just good technique and done correctly. The only "magic" was in the results and in the ability to strike effortlessly.



same here. except I still train, so I'd say this in the present tense.

Quote:


I don't think I've ever stated that I controlled the vibration cycles of my punch (which I may or may not do), but that seems to be the only criteria you want to use for measuring whether or not the techniques would work. I don't know if you know anything about harmonics, but you can generate all kinds of vibration cycles harmonically that would probably fit the "commotio cordis" arrythmia criteria and cause heart problems. Nothing has just one frequency... if it has a frequency, it has a harmonic... and it also has a "dissipating harmonic" which dies off as the signal dies off... so it isn't just a matter of learning the "secret handshake" of the vibrating palm.




matter of fact I do know something about harmonics. and I know it doesn't apply here. cancelling a wave takes the same precision timing beyond the capabilities of humans....not just me...humans.





Roll up a newspaper tightly, and give yourself a whack on the arm or leg with it... then take a quarter inch dowel and pop yourself in the same place. Which one hurts? Both is the correct answer, but the frequency of the impacts is different, and the surface area affected is different... and unless all your muscles, bones, and nerves are neatly strung out in geometric patterns, you have to hit the right places to get the same effects even if you hit with the same tools.



uuhh...smaller surface area concentrates the impact - larger area disapates it. think I learned that in grade school when comparring the difference between getting hit with the flat of a ruler vs. the edge.

Quote:


The body is a fluid capsule, and traps vibration, so there is a lot of wave motion in the body that goes unnoticed unless know how to use it, and part of the DM training involves that particular base of knowledge as well... and unlike the acupuncture points being used for healing, the DM points are being used to shut down body systems and cause damage inside the body capsule... and contrary to popular belief, killing isn't the main thrust of DM. There are techniques to cause nausea, diarhhea, internal bleeding, constipation, mental problems... a whole raft of "body problems" which may or may not eventually lead to death. Several of the points in the head and carotid sinus are noted for being "stroke" points, and simply take advantage of the plaque or clots in your blood vessels to cause a stroke by hitting and causing it to dislodge. I'm sure the guys who discovered the points didn't have a clue why it worked, but it was consistently successful, so they didn't argue with the success. They simply put it on the chart.



Thats really the cental question of Dim Mak, isn't it. How are you 'sure'? all based upon faith? plus as you say, they obsurred their charts so without the teaching that went along with it, how can you be sure?


Quote:

but again you only understand force transmission as a punching skill... and it shows with that statement.



you assume alot.


g'night.

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#368547 - 11/15/07 02:41 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

you assume alot.


I think it works both ways...

I saw nothing wrong with Grady's response. He is right on the button on many points, including the seemingly overt concern with minutiae and the idea that if "I can't do it, then it is physically impossible that someone else could", and he is especially right on the harmonic and vibrational frequency, and the body being a fluid capsule. Just because you or I can't do it, doesn't invalidate it.

Seems like you're still harping on the believability issue, which for you is still an issue of faith. Perhaps if you were to change your perspective from one of ignorant skeptic to one of inquiring scientist (who can also be skeptical), you may be able to approach it differently.

It's not black magic or bogus science... you're just reading too much into it.

Just a friendly suggestion...

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#368548 - 11/15/07 07:14 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Ed, I think you've slipped back into to total skeptic mode and if I'd taken the time that Grady did to put those posts together I'd be a little insulted at the way you worded your response, does come across as belittling and setting him up for the kill. Just my opinion on how the wording could be conceived as hostile.

Grady,

Thanks for the clarification on some of the issues I had. Would I be correct in thinking that you not following a particular elemental sequence when setting these shots up, relying on multiply hits to score the desired results? That's one of my big issues with modern Kyusho, yeah it works well on a dumb uke, but a resisting dynamic opponent I just can't picture the complex sequences landing true. The idea of a single shot fired off with a specific method of impact going in seems a lot more plausible.

I think sometimes using the word "vibration" may point people in the wrong direction when we are talking about different methods of power delivery. As most MA's think in terms of external visually perceivable "vibrating" and would try actually physically vibrating their hand. I often think describing the quality of the shot is easier to conceive. Most karateka would be familiar with terms such as "Heavy shot", "sharp shot" or "a heavy shot right into the core", and heavy, light, deep and the like are really as far as most MA's go into power delivery, or more precisely impact delivery. When you say to someone I'm going to let the power go in as far as the kidney, most would think you mad. But a carpenter can fairly accurately decide how far they'll drive a nail into a piece of wood. Ask them to describe how they do it and they'll say something, "I hit it hard enough to drive it in that far." Sometimes its quite hard for people who don't have the sensitivity to appreciate how precisely power can be delivered. On a bag you can consciously decide how deep the shot will go. You decide the result and your body takes care of the rest by accessing the ability through its prior training.

So I think its worth pointing out that Grady isn't talking about picking a frequency to vibrate is punch at anymore than a carpenter mentally contemplates the physics involved in hitting a nail in. It's a skill the body has learnt how to do over a period of time. A football player picks a spot and kicks the ball, with prior experience to go on he'll be making the adjustments autonomically to cater for the environmental conditions, in his head he just thinks "Kick ball" the despite how complex the physical process.

Just to keep the conversation on track!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#368549 - 11/15/07 07:50 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Yeah, I don't think it's about vibrating the hand... More like a "wave" maybe...

Also, the body does respond to certain vibrational frequencies. Sounds, chanting, kotodama etc. have long been a part of various qigong practices. Something about using the lower abdomen like a drum.... or developing it so...

Here's one example:
http://shouyuliang.com/index.php/2007-Ma...-of-Speech.html

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#368550 - 11/15/07 10:41 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
which part was perceived as belittling? this part?
Quote:

You seem wrapped up in minutia and never see the whole picture of anything. I'm surprised you didn't pull out your study by the fraud police on acupuncture again (which is 17 years old) and wave it like the sword of Gideon...


just so I am self-aware to avoid reading people's posts as hostile.


on topic: aren't the meridian and points charts the central foundation in Dim Mak training? so wouldn't it be reasonable to question where those charts come from and on what basis did they change? Or is that is that considered hostile to ask?
also, if we use the logic that the old charts were purposely made vague, then how can we use the argument that since the human body hasn't changed, then the charts must still be valid. can you have accurate vagueness?

last point everyone loves to avoid is the history of TCM:
http://www.traditionalstudies.org/website/Chinese%20Medicine%20Evolution.html


compare that history with any TCM website which are advertising for clientel prospects, and you see why they always choose to glaze over the fact that TCM is a modern invention and a far cry from the older practices.

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#368551 - 11/15/07 11:29 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:


last point everyone loves to avoid is the history of TCM:




This is belittling mate, or at can be least perceived as. This is like saying, "You're all avoiding the issue.." but in a condescending manner. In the UK we from the TV you guys ship over we get a picture of the typical "Valley Girl" who oozes sarcasm, "You know, like, you guys, like, soooooo looooooove to avoid discussing TCM history!". Sometimes you can come across as being a "Fundamentalist Skeptic".

I for one haven't avoided TCM history, in fact I think I mention I use the terms Oriental Medicine, as do many fellow practitioners. And the book that is the Bible of the OM student and required reading on my shiatsu course and the acupuncture courses I've read about doesn't use the term TCM and regularly references the "classics" throughout the entire book. In fact the only people I regular know who use the term "TCM" are martial artists! Go figure!

Here's the book BTW. If you really have an interest in learning OM this is the book for you:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Foundations-Chin...3795&sr=1-1
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#368552 - 11/15/07 03:31 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
despite what your misinformed stereotype images are of Americans, I take it you don't have an answer to the serious questions and are just distracting?


Quote:


on topic: aren't the meridian and points charts the central foundation in Dim Mak training? so wouldn't it be reasonable to question where those charts come from and on what basis did they change? Or is that is that considered hostile to ask?
also, if we use the logic that the old charts were purposely made vague, then how can we use the argument that since the human body hasn't changed, then the charts must still be valid. can you have accurate vagueness?




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#368553 - 11/15/07 05:33 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Guess not Ed.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#368554 - 11/15/07 05:40 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

last point everyone loves to avoid is the history of TCM:
http://www.traditionalstudies.org/website/Chinese%20Medicine%20Evolution.html





I thought these sections quite telling:

Quote:

Tragically, traditional theories that did not fit the new model or did not meet with Communist approval were removed from the textbooks and curriculum, their clinical application and understanding at risk of being lost forever.




Quote:

Unfortunately, in spite of his efforts, the persons in the positions of authority to implement the project were the very doctors convinced of the superiority of a modern based medicine. As a result, their documentation efforts were so skewed in this manner that traditional practitioners found themselves being patronized by young science-based researchers. Angered by this treatment and still living in fear from the Cultural Revolution, the practitioners offered them little real information. In turn, the young researchers took this as proof that traditional medicine had little to offer the theoretical foundation of modern Chinese medicine.




Quote:

In turn, the old doctors found that these students were seeking more effective techniques to apply immediately rather than applying themselves to the discipline of learning traditional perspectives on treatment that requires time, attention and diligence.




Quote:

Suspicious of the motives of students and institutions who approach them in these money focused times, the doctors are wary of trying to pass on their experience during their last years.




And I think you missed the real thrust of the article here:
Quote:

Those still alive will most likely be too old or infirm to actively record their clinical skills. As a part of this new endeavor, ATS is expanding the visibility of this work so that the voices of this last generation can help shape the Western understanding of traditional medicine as it becomes accepted into the current medical paradigm of integrative medicine.




It's people like you, like the Nationalist Movement, people who have a power-based and control agenda to push, in order to silence any opposition to their half-baked theories.

I think this conversation is over...


Edited by eyrie (11/15/07 05:41 PM)

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#368555 - 11/15/07 06:21 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ed,
my answer was neither misleading or inaccurate regarding the charts. Yes, they are accurate... yes, they are misleading purposely to disguise much of the information.

Quote:

if we use the logic that the old charts were purposely made vague, then how can we use the argument that since the human body hasn't changed, then the charts must still be valid. can you have accurate vagueness?





I can give you tons of "accurate information" about something without revealing the secrets regarding it's use or how to actually make it functional. Lets' use Aikido for example... sankyo, the third control. If I taught you the "classic sankyo", you could do some things with it, and it would work every time... or I could teach you the advanced techniques which involve several other types of sankyo that are both excruciating and debilitating. Both kinds of technique use exactly the same information, they just apply it differently and the results are phenomenenally different. Shihonage is another example... done one way, it's a very effective throw... done another, it rips your shoulder out of the socket... same information, same technique, merely a change of angle in the application. Done "toward the spine", it's totally harmless and an effective throw... done at another angle, it's crippling... It's all hidden right out in plain sight.

What the charts never show, are the type of strike used at the points, the angle of the strike, and some other miscellaneous information that you would get from the teacher. There's no "home dim mak kit", just like there's no "home surgery kit". It's a matter of training and nuances in that training that make it effective.

You can learn a lot about the dim mak points by studying acupuncture, and by studying kyusho jitsu, but it's still not the primary art of dim mak. All that information is out there, hiding right out in plain sight for you, and being the "reader" that you are, you should pick it up and learn every bit of it.

Since we've been discussing this subject for so long, I'm curious to know if you question your karate teacher's validity of every technique like you do dim mak? If so, you must be a joy to teach... like a root canal, and if not, then why not? Are you only skeptical of things you haven't been taught, or do you apply the same basis of study to everything? Sometimes, the answer is "because my teacher taught it to me that way"...

I've studied half a dozen different styles of karate, and every one of them has its own method of punching. Goju has the high starting position, Shotokan starts at the hip... Isshin Ryu uses the vertical fist... all kinds of differences. I can't remember questioning any one of my teachers' instructions about the kind of punching they wanted me to do... only "how to do it" correctly in their style so I could learn their systems... and the reason they did things differently was to "fit their technique". Try doing a goju punch with a vertical fist and see how "unhandy" it is... it simply doesn't work with the high starting position. Dim mak information is also like that... just pounding on a point won't necessarily get the effect you expect. The strike has to be correct, on target, and at the right angle... Is it precise... you bet your a$$... is it dependable... I won't answer.

You've already accused Eyrie and me of "magical thinking", so just adding fuel to the fire won't accomplish anything. You've predetermined that it doesn't work, or that it's unreliable as a fighting system... so I won't try to change your mind again. Like the unreliablilty of acupuncture, you give this art no credibility... so why bother? You might want to think over the acupuncture idea though... or else set about changing the minds of several hundred million Chinese who are patients of it, or the 4000 doctors in this country that are now practicing it...

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#368556 - 11/15/07 10:06 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Posts: 6768
questioning outside of class is separate from training. I regard training as doing...not talking about it.

This forum or talking or reading or research, is not training. it's supplimental like weight lifting, stretching or meditation.

with that in mind, can we curb the attempts to make me look like a non-training intellectual. first, it doesn't add anything to the conversation and second it makes it look like avoidance of the questions.


yes, things can be hidden in plain sight. kata itself is a perfect example.

but it's not the same to look at points on an ancient crude hand drawing and deduct the precise points, angles and effect they intended. ...or perhaps at some level it is similar to kata interpretation, but somehow the leaps to conclusion seem much greater.

interesting. so Grady, in effect, you are saying Dim Mak is interpretive. and some interpretations are deemed 'better' than others. Thats a new angle to Dim Mak. usually, it's attempted to be passed off as an exact science.

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#368557 - 11/15/07 10:51 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Would I be correct in thinking that you not following a particular elemental sequence when setting these shots up, relying on multiply hits to score the desired results?




Gav...
the elemental striking used in kyusho jitsu is designed to use "cross meridian system shock" to cause injury or effect. Combinations of "fire and metal" points, or such combined "elements" to produce a result are more "teaching models" to hit the right spots than anything else.

The vibration of dim mak is applied in shocking the skeletal structure of the body, much like hitting a tuning fork to cause a harmonic note. It is done through the meridian point that is known to cause the "expected damage", which creates the need to be so accurate with the angles of attack to the points. Angling to the particular structure of the bones in the body can be difficult, but the kata that taught dim mak, were fighting movements which positioned you to make that particular strike accurately and almost without it being obvious what you were doing.

Somehow, these guys who are so hell-bent that this stuff doesn't work would rather flail at someone's arms and legs with random blocks and punches or kicks than to "have a plan" to get to the place where they could do real damage with little or no effort. They'll spend half a lifetime learning and practicing kata, but have no clue how to use it to turn empty hand fighting into its lethal outcomes... and will then turn around and argue that the art isn't lethal because they couldn't kill anybody with it.

The killing punches of karate were punches that snapped violently the last inch or so of travel, and were delivered in about 1/100th of a second. The vibration was caused by the "snap" action, and I wish I had a way of showing you what I'm talking about. Nishiyama Sensei made a tape about the International Karate Federation in which one of his students demonstrated the "snapping" punch... and that is the type of strike used in many of the dim mak techniques. They're pretty lethal just on their own, but adding the hitting point to the mix made them deadly.

The Chinese punching methods used a lot of "finger strikes" for more accuracy to the points, and were more readily dependent on "depth of penetration" to the points to get the job done. They weren't "vibration" punches, for the most part, and I've never fully understood how the "Chinese system" of open handed dim mak worked. I have my own ideas about it, but I don't have another 50 years to spend in a kung fu or tai chi school in order to get the clarification.

You asked good questions in this discussion, and deserve an answer without all the rhetoric from the peanut gallery.

One of the strikes used in dim mak is the "touching fingers palm heel strike" that is done by slightly curving the fingers and placing the fingertips slightly above the target. Keeping the hand and wrist completely relaxed, snap the palm "down and in" to strike the point in question with the base of the ulner bone. If you're familiar with it, it's used in "close-in" fighting, and used on lung points or over nerve plexes, is absolutely devastating. I won't go into details, but I think you can work it out from there without much help. It's also a "forward hand" technique, and if you learn to snap your hips with the application, you can absolutely knock somebody out the door with it.

If you're doing "cross-meridian" punches, you want this one to be the "finishing blow" for the set. It isn't "vibrating palm", but it's damn close...

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#368558 - 11/16/07 12:33 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
You expect Mr. Ed Morris to "deduct" and "interpret" all on his own how DM really works from all this techno gibberish? You are so unkind.

They are people who wants to learn but were too shy to ask nicely.

BTW, just my 2 cents. (since that's all the tuition fees I can afford) Dim Mak (actually a cantonese pronunciation) is called "dim mak" and not "da" (hit/strike) "mak" (acu-points) is because you don't hit/strike it as you would with a normal EMA hit/strike, hence the difficulty in understanding or accepting how it could work and work in a real world combat situation.

"Dim" (which is the same word as in "dim sum", "to touch the heart" -- chinese lunch snacks) means to touch/point-contact lightly, but not a caress. It's like the word "sung" in IMA, which can only be translated as relax or being loose. It is about being physically relaxed and loose, but with full mental intent of your internal body processes while you are 'relaxing'. So if you're told to just relax by your master on your first few months of Tai Chi class, you may understandably come to the conclusion that what kind of sissy martial art is this; relax?

So now we have the word "dim" -- to touch/point-contact lightly. If this word is first fundamentally understood, then there is some starting point for serious discussion. Whether the "mak" actually exist or not, or it's all a figment of the collective imagination of generations of past masters down the centuries who would not in a sundry manner divulge any useful information, let alone actual training, unless it was to their closest relatives and in-door disciples. A pity really, as the art is slowly disappearing, and dying out, even in the land of it's birth.

Let's take karate, which is a straight forward combat art, with no "magic" attached (at least not that I am aware of) If it was not an accident of history back in the 1930s when some Okinawan masters decided to standardize the syllabus and disseminate it first to the Japanese and thence to the world as an act of post-war patriotic effort to gain some lost national pride, karate (and all the other Okinawan Te) would still be a native curiosity found on the few scattered islands of Okinawa and we'll have people on the Net discussing and perhaps dismissing how it is possible to break baseball bats and bricks etc. with bare hands.

I hope Wristtwister and others like him will live long and prosper so that some of the knowledge at least is preserved, even if it's just exist as an intellectual curiosity and for civilised discussions, because to trian it to a high degree these days is beyond the patience of most people, and also for the simple reason that the opportunity to test it in real combat, unlike the past lawless days, is hard to find.
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#368559 - 11/16/07 01:38 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
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yes, but I'm trying to figure out what exactly is preserved...

a system of point and meridian theory created in the 1960's for political reasons which is loosly based on the classical texts depicting crude drawings and ancient unsubstantiated suppositions - superimposed on top of modern anatomy in order to force-fit the justification of it's effectiveness ? is that what's being preserved?

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#368560 - 11/16/07 04:05 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
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Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Ed, look at this picture printed in McCarthy's translation of the bubishi:

http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/patric4.gif

This picture is supposedly quite old. It has spleen points, lung points, Heart, Small Intesstine, Triple heater, Gall Bladder, etc, etc. Traditional Acupuncture is actually a point based system, not a meridian based. Look up the Kanji for a pressure points. The meridians were simply lines drawn to connect the points of a certain element together. together to aid in the learning process. PP's are considered to be external "access" points to deeper energetic pathways. Virtually everyone Meridian based system I have encountered teaches you that the actual pathway between points sways like a rope, which is why (and don't bite my head off or demand proof coz you won't receive a response) practitioners take a great deal of time to become sensitive to following the energy. The only thing I seen deviate from the translated "classics" to modern writings from and after the cultural revolution is where the lines connected the dots are, not the dots themselves. Which is really irrelevant because acupuncturists only access parts of the pathway (which funnily enough usually tally up with nerve junctions) and meridian works following the energetic, not a line on a 2D drawing.

It's these sorts of sweeping statements that irritates people mate. Bossman, BP, WT and others have spent years and years studying Western and eastern practices and knowledge by meeting experienced teachers and many hours of book studies to qualify there statements. How many books on Acupuncture have you actually read versus webpages? Not saying this to be hostile or belittling, but your seriously misrepresent one side of the impartial seemingly logical virtuous stand point of skepticism your standing from.

Grady - Thanks for your response. Gotta go for my lesson with Bossman now, but I'll reply later!
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#368561 - 11/16/07 06:41 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: ButterflyPalm]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Thanks, BP... I haven't had too many kind words in this discussion...

I rimmed this earlier, but the loss of "classical skills" is what has done more to hide this information than just about anything else. If you can't make the right kind of strike, the point's moot to start with, so it's like arguing with the rain... shout all you want, you'll still get wet.

"To touch the heart" is a phrase I haven't heard for a long time in training... but I know what you're talking about. The problem with the "current" discussion is that we are talking to people with no knowledge of the art, only preconceived ideas and skepticism. Just from the conversation, I can glean that they do not have the traditional skills necessary to execute the techniques, so it's like two fleas arguing over which one owns the dog... they can bite and irritate, but produce no useful dialog to understand DM.

Like engineering, you have to have more than the book of standards to design something. You have to understand basic principles, have basic techniques and skills that are used in the process, and then develop the idea using those tools to produce a product.

A rookie draftsman can paint a picture of something, using what skills he has, but I don't want him designing the building I'm in, or the bridge I'm crossing... DM skills are high-level skills, which is another reason they weren't generally taught to the "class", but reserved to the "exceptional" students. The nuances make all the difference...

Gotta go to work... thanks for the kind words. Much appreciated...

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#368562 - 11/16/07 07:48 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
little side-story for you (unfortunately, a commercial first):

"phantom cell phone vibrations"
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=4226712&cl=5026262&src=news

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#368563 - 11/16/07 09:35 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Posts: 6768
btw Gavin, that map you reference...it's a redraw. it was likely based on this one:
http://www.fightingarts.com/content02/graphics/bubishi_2_2.jpg

side by side:



but you can check with Mr. McCarthy on that and ask where he got his drawings from.

Which map do you like better? take your pick.

(and since it's in Chinese, the characters are called Hanzi or Han. 'Kanji' is Japanese.)

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#368564 - 11/16/07 09:59 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
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some more points of interest:

http://chinese-school.netfirms.com/acupuncture-points.html
Quote:


Acupuncture Facts

A FEW COMMONLY USED ACUPUNCTURE POINTS

In ancient times, the number of acupuncture points was established to be the same as the number of days in the year: 365. These points were mapped to 14 major meridian lines, one meridian for each of the 12 inner organs, one meridian along the spine (called the governing vessel), and another along the midline of the abdomen (called the conception vessel). More recently, the number of points identified by acupuncturists has exploded. There are extra meridians (some of them outlined in ancient times, others modern) with their own sets of points, there are special points (off meridians), and there are complete mappings of body structures and functions by points along the outer ears, on the nose, in the scalp, on the hands, on the feet, and at the wrists and ankles. Despite the growing number of treatment zones, most acupuncturists still utilize the traditionally-identified points on the 14 main meridians.







Quote:


Acupuncture Facts

Ancient Acupuncture Theories

The understanding of how acupuncture works has evolved with its practice, but the descriptions set down a thousand years ago have largely been retained. The dominant function of acupuncture is to regulate the circulation of qi (vital energy) and blood. Approximately 2,000 years ago, the pre-eminent acupuncture text, Huangdi Neijing (Yellow Emperor’s Classic on Internal Medicine), was written. In it, acupuncture was described as a means of letting out excess qi or blood by making holes in the body along certain pathways, called jingluo (meridians). For some of these meridians, it was advised to acupuncture in such a way as to let out the blood but not the qi; for others, to let out the qi, but not the blood. Many diseases were thought to enter the body through the skin, and then penetrate inward through muscle, internal organs, and, if not cured in timely fashion, to the marrow of the bone. By inserting a needle to the appropriate depth—to correspond with the degree of disease penetration—the disease could be let out.

Prior to the time when there were microscopes by which people could envision individual cells and before autopsies revealed the intricate structures within the body, doctors and scholars projected the internal workings of the body from what they could actually experience, which was the world outside the body. On this basis, the workings of the body were described in terms similar to those used to describe the visible world. One of the critical aspects of nature for humans living a thousand years ago, when Chinese civilization was well developed, was the system of water courses, which included tiny streams, huge rivers, man-made canals and irrigation systems, and the ocean. It was envisioned that the body had a similar system of moving, life-giving fluid. This fluid was the qi, and the pathways through which it flowed were the meridians.

Instead of discussing acupuncture in terms of letting something out of the body, physicians began describing it in terms of regulating something within the body. The flow of qi through the meridians, just like the flow of water through a stream, could be blocked off by an obstruction—a dam across the waterway. In the streams, this might be a fallen tree or a mud slide; in humans, it might be caused by something striking the body, the influence of bad weather, or ingestion of improper foods. When a stream is blocked, it floods above the blockage, and below the blockage it dries up. If one goes to the point of blockage and clears it away, then the stream can resume its natural course. In a like manner, if the qi in the meridian becomes blocked, the condition of the body becomes disordered like the flooding and dryness; if one could remove the blockage from the flow of qi within a meridian, the natural flow could be restored.

In a blocked stream, just cutting a small hole or crevice in the blockage will often clear the entire stream path, because the force of the water that penetrates the hole will widen it continuously until the normal course is restored. In the human body, inserting a small needle into the blocked meridian will have a similar effect. Just as a stream may have certain points more easily accessed (or more easily blocked), the meridians have certain points which, if treated by needling, will have a significant impact on the flow pattern. Many acupuncture points are named for geological structures: mountains, streams, ponds, and oceans.

Although this description of the basic acupuncture concept is somewhat simplified, it conveys the approach that is taught today to students of traditional acupuncture: locate the areas of disturbance, isolate the main blockage points, and clear the blockage. Of course, many layers of sophistication have been added to this model, so that the needling—which might be carried out in several different ways—can be seen to have subtle and differing effects depending upon the site(s) needled, the depth and direction of needling, and even the chemical composition of the needle (such as gold, silver, or steel). For example, some needling techniques are used for the primary purpose of increasing the flow of qi in a meridian without necessarily removing any blockage; other techniques reduce the flow of qi in the meridians. These tonifying and draining methods, as well as transference methods that help move qi from one meridian to another, are part of the more general aim of balancing the flow of qi in the body.

Ultimately, all the descriptions of acupuncture that are based on the traditional model involve rectifying a disturbance in the flow of qi. If the qi circulation is corrected, the body can eliminate most symptoms and eventually—with proper diet, exercise, and other habits—overcome virtually all disease.





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#368565 - 11/16/07 10:28 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:


(and since it's in Chinese, the characters are called Hanzi or Han. 'Kanji' is Japanese.)





Knowing your experience with Japan, I presumed you'd be more familiar with the Kanji..thanks for the pull up though!

As for the rest of the stuff...erm yeah. Different pictures...yep. New points? Maybe. The history of OM is extremely dynamic and based on the fashionable thinkers of the time and varied greatly through the provinces. Just looking back at the inclusion of 5 element theory in the "medical" training throughout Chinas history shows how concept slip in and out of fashion. An interesting side line of study that I really haven't had the time to really explore as much as I'd like. Unfortunately oriental medical history isn't on my Shiatsu curriculum. Something to pursue if I ever graduate!
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#368566 - 11/16/07 10:32 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
here's the key sentance/disclaimer:
Quote:

If the qi circulation is corrected, the body can eliminate most symptoms and eventually—with proper diet, exercise, and other habits—overcome virtually all disease.





well, what if we compare people who just have "proper diet, exercise, and other habits" and NO qi correction.
VS.
qi corrected people who also have "proper diet, exercise, and other habits"

?

My instinct says that improvements in both test groups would be very good with insignificant differences.

"proper diet, exercise, and other habits" is the key that gets you 99% of the improvement that qi healers are quick to take credit for.


I guess my thinking is applying that same test to Dim Mak.

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#368567 - 11/16/07 10:45 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Another question...just to keep the thread flowing. If DM actually translates to "artery press" and is associated with the blood I think it could be worth looking at the notion of "Blood" as it applies to chinese thinking. The Heart in Oriental Medicine is considered to be the home of the Shen (the spirit or mind) and Blood the anchor of the Shen, providing a tranquil environment for the Shen to reside in. Does DM theory catalog or take into account the psychological and spiritual aspects of attacking the "Blood" or is it merely concerned with the red stuff we use the term to describe in the west?
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#368568 - 11/16/07 06:47 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
eyrie Offline
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Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
DM literally means "touch" (dim) "pulse" (mak). I think it's based on the inter-relationship of blood and qi - qi moves the blood. Disorders in the movement of qi results in abnormal blood circulation. So the theory is based on the idea of disrupting qi flow to disrupt normal blood circulation - which in turn affects internal bodily function.

But of course this is entirely hypothetical... assuming qi exists and if it did, whether it performs such functions, and whether such functions can be affected by external stimulus.

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#368569 - 11/16/07 07:08 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
Gavin Offline
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Yeah that I understand, but I'm inquiring about the more Chinese medical thinking of Blood which is different from how we in the west would define it, particularly in the times these theories were being contemplated.
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#368570 - 11/16/07 08:38 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
eyrie Offline
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I don't think it is all that different. TCM just explains it in a different way... again, based on understanding at the time and the model used to explain. As you well know, blood is a bodily fluid - an essential (yin) "substance". It is the mother of qi, originates thru the transformation of food (nutritional qi), and its function is to circulate thru the body to nourish and "moisten" the body.

None of my material seems to indicate why or how it is different from a western viewpoint, except in terms of "functionality". And even on that score is deliberately vague. It just says it is *sometimes* identifiable with blood from a western medical perspective, its characteristics and functions are not so identifiable. I'm guessing it's a translation "difficulty" or lack of knowledge on the translator's part.

As for its relationship to the major organs, Heart rules the blood, Liver stores blood, and Spleen governs blood. Practically speaking I see little difference with how western medicine views these things - the heart being responsible (rule?) for circulating the blood, the liver is the storage unit for glycogen (blood sugar) and other nutrients, as well as being the toxic waste processing and chemical factory. The spleen is a blood filtration plant and filters (governs?) out unwanted materials and aging red blood cells from the system.

Of course, this is only a cursory treatment on my part. I'm sure you would have covered most of these generalities in your studies. Why? How do you think it is different?

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#368571 - 11/16/07 09:25 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

DM literally means "touch" (dim) "pulse" (mak). I think it's based on the inter-relationship of blood and qi - qi moves the blood. Disorders in the movement of qi results in abnormal blood circulation. So the theory is based on the idea of disrupting qi flow to disrupt normal blood circulation - which in turn affects internal bodily function.

But of course this is entirely hypothetical... assuming qi exists and if it did, whether it performs such functions, and whether such functions can be affected by external stimulus.





Eyrie, that is the best explanation I've heard in or outside of training. It is absolutely dead on...

Gavin, you asked
Quote:

about the more Chinese medical thinking of Blood which is different from how we in the west would define it, particularly in the times these theories were being contemplated.




That was never the context that I was taught under, but it was clear that the "shen" or spirit, was directly related to blood flow in the body. There were points in DM that were hit to affect someone's personality, causing depression, etc. so it was obviously considered as part of the equation. Tai Chi teaches that the body exists not only as a collection of interconnected organs, but "as a whole", and chi interruptions or blockages cause deteriorating effects on the whole body, not just the particular organ that is affected by the blocked channel or pathway. They view chi as being related to both the nervous and vascular systems, and use "molecular" travel as it's "western parallel"... such as the force that holds atoms in orbit around each other...electromagnetism. Since the goal is to keep chi "in balance", and their focus on both the flow of chi and balancing chi, I would assume that they understood it in the same sense as we observe blood flow.

Like the body is in "sleep cycles" and "waking cycles", the chi is considered to be "waxing and waning" conditions during different cycles of the day, and like our circulation changes when we are at rest, the understanding of chi "waxing and waning" cycles directly relate to our awareness or "mental resting".

I'd like to give you an honest answer to your question, but since I wasn't taught in that context, but in a more classical understanding of spirit and its connection to the body's condition, I can only hazard a guess. Since their focus is on "interrupting" or "balancing" chi, and it's directly related to the circulation system and nervous system, I can see it's relationship, but couldn't tell you definitively if that's how they viewed it when they discovered the DM points in the body.

Acupuncture, accupressure, and shiatsu all deal with needling or massaging points where the chi blockages occur in the channels of the body, so if I had to make a "yes" or "no" answer, I would say that the oriental medicine practitioners were well aware of blood flow and its relationship to life forces. While they might describe someone bleeding to death as "losing their chi", they would clearly see the blood on the ground and visualize it's connection to their "chi" concept.

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#368572 - 11/16/07 10:22 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
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I just got self-conscious when I realized the conversation is much more interesting without me getting involved in it. great discussion!

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#368573 - 11/16/07 11:26 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
oldman Offline
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Even an oyster needs an irritant to produce a pearl.
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#368574 - 11/16/07 11:34 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Eyrie, that is the best explanation I've heard in or outside of training. It is absolutely dead on...


Good to know, since I know absolutely nothing about DM...

Quote:

Tai Chi teaches that the body exists not only as a collection of interconnected organs, but "as a whole", and chi interruptions or blockages cause deteriorating effects on the whole body, not just the particular organ that is affected by the blocked channel or pathway. They view chi as being related to both the nervous and vascular systems...


The hardest part to get one's head around is the inter-connectedness of everything in TCM/OM/CCM... how one part or aspect affects the whole. From the eastern perspective, the body is a delicately balanced "energetic" system - and by "energetic" it really means emotional (spiritual), mental, physiological. We can certainly boost our body's "energy" in various ways - diet, exercise, lifestyle, well-being etc. - what I think is generally referred to as "wei qi" or "protective" qi - which is a combination of food qi (nutrition), air qi (clean air), "feng shui" (environmental conditions and influences), mental/emotional/spiritual state ("shen"), and genetic factors such as predisposition to illness and disease ("jing").

So, I don't think it is that far-fetched to think that subtle or overt factors can throw such a delicately balanced system out of whack - whether one subscribes to a eastern or western viewpoint.

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#368575 - 11/17/07 06:54 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
underdog Offline
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Rather than "delicate" balance, I'd use the word "robust" balance. We are wonderfully made and have an amazing capacity to right ourselves. It takes quite a bit to render us "out of whack".
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#368576 - 11/17/07 07:23 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Even an oyster needs an irritant to produce a pearl.




Whet's the difference between a pearl and a tumor??... but I digress...

Eyrie,
the perception of DM is perhaps the biggest problem in understanding it. There are many different "conditions" that can be caused from DM strikes which would eventually lead to death or serious illness, so in a sense, kyusho jitsu is almost a parallel with DM. As I stated previously, the loss of particular skills reduced the ability of people to actually execute the techniques, so it's not accurate to say DM and kyusho are the same thing, but they do handle some of the same material.

The idea that you can't hit kyusho points or DM points during a fight is hilarious. Last night, we were doing tachi dori (sword-taking) techniques in Aikido, and the student I teach privately was attacking with the bokken. After several attempts to hit me, he "really" came on the attack, so as I stepped in, I tagged one of his "shutdown" points. He folded up like a cheap chair, with a look of "what the hell did you just do to me?", and stumbled backwards abandoning the bokken on the mat.

In teaching jujutsu, I've always taught people that your attacker "follows his pain", and when they are focused on you for their attack, their attention immediately goes to something painful that is occuring inside them. The hit I put on my student had barely as much force as required to move a coffee cup, but it was accurate, and in a place that caused "radiant pain" all over the right side of his rib cage. It wasn't dangerous, only painful, but it would have been just as easy to attack a killing point, or to hit him somewhere that would have started causing health problems.

Where too many people fall off the wagon on DM training is that they want to treat it as a "beginner skill" rather than a "high level skill". The probability of a white belt hitting me with a kyusho or DM technique are "slim to none". The possibility of someone Sandan or higher in rank would be "better", but someone with "master-level skills" could probably make it work without a problem... why, because they have the technique to make it work. They would also have the faith in the technique to use it to do what it is designed to do. Results might vary...

Seriously, though, DM takes "knowledge of the body" and an understanding of how to interrupt chi, balance chi, and resucitate people from the techniques of it. If you practice it as a side show, it garners the ridicule that is prevalent from the observers of "human stun gun" practitioners, and "pressure point NTKO" crowd. If you practice it as a fighting science and do it in the vein(sorry) of being a high-level fighting skill, it not only makes sense, but puts "another bullet in your gun" to use in self defense.

The original video of this thread showed something that no one has mentioned... which is the "resistance" to the DM training by the students who were struck by the teacher in the video. The teacher easily overcame them, even with their chi training to resist punches and present an "iron body" , but it was also clear that the reporter, who didn't have those skills, was easily disoriented with the touch. Regardless of your opinions regarding DM, it is clear from that video that you need some training to simply resist the skill. As you said in one of your earlier posts, the look on his face was "priceless".

My teacher used to tell me that "pain hurts whether you think the technique works or not"... it appears to be a "wiser, and wiser" statement as time goes along...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#368577 - 11/17/07 09:28 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
"Seriously, though, DM takes "knowledge of the body" and an understanding of how to interrupt chi, balance chi, and resucitate people from the techniques of it. If you practice it as a side show, it garners the ridicule that is prevalent from the observers of "human stun gun" practitioners, and "pressure point NTKO" crowd. If you practice it as a fighting science and do it in the vein(sorry) of being a high-level fighting skill, it not only makes sense, but puts "another bullet in your gun" to use in self defense."

Very well said.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#368578 - 11/17/07 11:32 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: underdog]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

"Seriously, though, DM takes "knowledge of the body" and an understanding of how to interrupt chi, balance chi, and resucitate people from the techniques of it.




I don't think knowledge of the body means knowing what time of the day to strike which point in what angle and direction.

Chi, I love that word. It means so much and yet so little. Everything is chi,nothing is chi. chi chi boom boom.

Quote:

If you practice it as a side show, it garners the ridicule that is prevalent from the observers of "human stun gun" practitioners, and "pressure point NTKO" crowd. If you practice it as a fighting science and do it in the vein(sorry) of being a high-level fighting skill, it not only makes sense, but puts "another bullet in your gun" to use in self defense."





In theory.
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#368579 - 11/17/07 12:24 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: BrianS]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

I don't think knowledge of the body means knowing what time of the day to strike which point in what angle and direction.




No, but in the "waxing and waning of chi" it points you in the direction of which meridian points to use because of their "active cycles". Since you have no knowledge of this, you might as well be discussing cold fusion nuclear theory.

... and by the way, nobody is asking you to believe anything or in anything. It's a discussion for people who actually might have something to contribute beside snide remarks.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#368580 - 11/17/07 06:38 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: underdog]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Rather than "delicate" balance, I'd use the word "robust" balance. We are wonderfully made and have an amazing capacity to right ourselves. It takes quite a bit to render us "out of whack".


That may be true, but our western lifestyle has largely de-sensitized us to *feeling* on many levels - we *think* we are "healthy", but usually the reverse is true. It may also be true, that the average lifespan in the west has extended to 75-80, due to our wondrous advances in medical and clinical technology, but imagine living well into your 90s and 100s. That's what this *ancient* technology allows us to do.

In most people, their "qi" is *weak* - we simply think this is the *normal* state because this is the level of "energy" we are used to and therefore the limit we are capable of. If that were the case, then wherefore the need for qigong? And why spend years cultivating qi in the cinnabar field?

Anyone who has had a modicum of training in this area would know, the moment a new student walks in the door, how much connectivity and structural "strength" (qi) they have - and therefore how much more work the student needs to do in order to even approach the level one is at, much less the level of one's own teacher, or their teachers before.

Tell me it isn't true...

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#368581 - 11/17/07 08:10 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I practice qigong every day. I also pray every day. I train 5-6 days a week. I don't do yoga or a lot of meditation. Occaisionally I engage in other restorative activities. I feel like I am a sensative person. I find all of these activities build my qi.

Does that give me a modicum of training in this area?

Because I work with numbers of people in out-of-dojo experiences, I believe that people experience having reservoirs of healthy qi with many different vocabularies and explanations for their consequent healthy state. I trust their descriptions and satisfaction with their own experience and conclude that there are many ways to get there.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#368582 - 11/17/07 08:43 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Eyrie -

Quote:

but imagine living well into your 90s and 100s. That's what this *ancient* technology allows us to do.




Not sure I follow you there. Wouldn't most decent exercise plans keep people healthy in their senior years? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but you make it sound like longetivity is a province only of qigong.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#368583 - 11/17/07 09:31 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
George Burns smoked cigars and lived till he was 100. Many centenarians and super-centenarians have made various claim as to their lifestyle, like clean air, vegetarianism, the occasional indulgence in smoking and drinking, but never IIRC, have they made any claim that they attributed their longevity to qigong.

By the same token, many apparently healthy people die prematurely, from heart attack, cancer and other common diseases, despite living and eating well, exercising regularly etc....

So, you don't need to do qigong to help prolong longevity... but you can't say that healthy living and exercise helps either.

I'm just saying, that's the thinking behind (Taoist) qigong (breath work), whether that's true or not... draw your own conclusions.

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