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#368570 - 11/16/07 08:38 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I don't think it is all that different. TCM just explains it in a different way... again, based on understanding at the time and the model used to explain. As you well know, blood is a bodily fluid - an essential (yin) "substance". It is the mother of qi, originates thru the transformation of food (nutritional qi), and its function is to circulate thru the body to nourish and "moisten" the body.

None of my material seems to indicate why or how it is different from a western viewpoint, except in terms of "functionality". And even on that score is deliberately vague. It just says it is *sometimes* identifiable with blood from a western medical perspective, its characteristics and functions are not so identifiable. I'm guessing it's a translation "difficulty" or lack of knowledge on the translator's part.

As for its relationship to the major organs, Heart rules the blood, Liver stores blood, and Spleen governs blood. Practically speaking I see little difference with how western medicine views these things - the heart being responsible (rule?) for circulating the blood, the liver is the storage unit for glycogen (blood sugar) and other nutrients, as well as being the toxic waste processing and chemical factory. The spleen is a blood filtration plant and filters (governs?) out unwanted materials and aging red blood cells from the system.

Of course, this is only a cursory treatment on my part. I'm sure you would have covered most of these generalities in your studies. Why? How do you think it is different?

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#368571 - 11/16/07 09:25 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

DM literally means "touch" (dim) "pulse" (mak). I think it's based on the inter-relationship of blood and qi - qi moves the blood. Disorders in the movement of qi results in abnormal blood circulation. So the theory is based on the idea of disrupting qi flow to disrupt normal blood circulation - which in turn affects internal bodily function.

But of course this is entirely hypothetical... assuming qi exists and if it did, whether it performs such functions, and whether such functions can be affected by external stimulus.





Eyrie, that is the best explanation I've heard in or outside of training. It is absolutely dead on...

Gavin, you asked
Quote:

about the more Chinese medical thinking of Blood which is different from how we in the west would define it, particularly in the times these theories were being contemplated.




That was never the context that I was taught under, but it was clear that the "shen" or spirit, was directly related to blood flow in the body. There were points in DM that were hit to affect someone's personality, causing depression, etc. so it was obviously considered as part of the equation. Tai Chi teaches that the body exists not only as a collection of interconnected organs, but "as a whole", and chi interruptions or blockages cause deteriorating effects on the whole body, not just the particular organ that is affected by the blocked channel or pathway. They view chi as being related to both the nervous and vascular systems, and use "molecular" travel as it's "western parallel"... such as the force that holds atoms in orbit around each other...electromagnetism. Since the goal is to keep chi "in balance", and their focus on both the flow of chi and balancing chi, I would assume that they understood it in the same sense as we observe blood flow.

Like the body is in "sleep cycles" and "waking cycles", the chi is considered to be "waxing and waning" conditions during different cycles of the day, and like our circulation changes when we are at rest, the understanding of chi "waxing and waning" cycles directly relate to our awareness or "mental resting".

I'd like to give you an honest answer to your question, but since I wasn't taught in that context, but in a more classical understanding of spirit and its connection to the body's condition, I can only hazard a guess. Since their focus is on "interrupting" or "balancing" chi, and it's directly related to the circulation system and nervous system, I can see it's relationship, but couldn't tell you definitively if that's how they viewed it when they discovered the DM points in the body.

Acupuncture, accupressure, and shiatsu all deal with needling or massaging points where the chi blockages occur in the channels of the body, so if I had to make a "yes" or "no" answer, I would say that the oriental medicine practitioners were well aware of blood flow and its relationship to life forces. While they might describe someone bleeding to death as "losing their chi", they would clearly see the blood on the ground and visualize it's connection to their "chi" concept.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#368572 - 11/16/07 10:22 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I just got self-conscious when I realized the conversation is much more interesting without me getting involved in it. great discussion!

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#368573 - 11/16/07 11:26 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Even an oyster needs an irritant to produce a pearl.
_________________________
www.prairiemartialarts.com

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#368574 - 11/16/07 11:34 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Eyrie, that is the best explanation I've heard in or outside of training. It is absolutely dead on...


Good to know, since I know absolutely nothing about DM...

Quote:

Tai Chi teaches that the body exists not only as a collection of interconnected organs, but "as a whole", and chi interruptions or blockages cause deteriorating effects on the whole body, not just the particular organ that is affected by the blocked channel or pathway. They view chi as being related to both the nervous and vascular systems...


The hardest part to get one's head around is the inter-connectedness of everything in TCM/OM/CCM... how one part or aspect affects the whole. From the eastern perspective, the body is a delicately balanced "energetic" system - and by "energetic" it really means emotional (spiritual), mental, physiological. We can certainly boost our body's "energy" in various ways - diet, exercise, lifestyle, well-being etc. - what I think is generally referred to as "wei qi" or "protective" qi - which is a combination of food qi (nutrition), air qi (clean air), "feng shui" (environmental conditions and influences), mental/emotional/spiritual state ("shen"), and genetic factors such as predisposition to illness and disease ("jing").

So, I don't think it is that far-fetched to think that subtle or overt factors can throw such a delicately balanced system out of whack - whether one subscribes to a eastern or western viewpoint.

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#368575 - 11/17/07 06:54 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Rather than "delicate" balance, I'd use the word "robust" balance. We are wonderfully made and have an amazing capacity to right ourselves. It takes quite a bit to render us "out of whack".
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#368576 - 11/17/07 07:23 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Even an oyster needs an irritant to produce a pearl.




Whet's the difference between a pearl and a tumor??... but I digress...

Eyrie,
the perception of DM is perhaps the biggest problem in understanding it. There are many different "conditions" that can be caused from DM strikes which would eventually lead to death or serious illness, so in a sense, kyusho jitsu is almost a parallel with DM. As I stated previously, the loss of particular skills reduced the ability of people to actually execute the techniques, so it's not accurate to say DM and kyusho are the same thing, but they do handle some of the same material.

The idea that you can't hit kyusho points or DM points during a fight is hilarious. Last night, we were doing tachi dori (sword-taking) techniques in Aikido, and the student I teach privately was attacking with the bokken. After several attempts to hit me, he "really" came on the attack, so as I stepped in, I tagged one of his "shutdown" points. He folded up like a cheap chair, with a look of "what the hell did you just do to me?", and stumbled backwards abandoning the bokken on the mat.

In teaching jujutsu, I've always taught people that your attacker "follows his pain", and when they are focused on you for their attack, their attention immediately goes to something painful that is occuring inside them. The hit I put on my student had barely as much force as required to move a coffee cup, but it was accurate, and in a place that caused "radiant pain" all over the right side of his rib cage. It wasn't dangerous, only painful, but it would have been just as easy to attack a killing point, or to hit him somewhere that would have started causing health problems.

Where too many people fall off the wagon on DM training is that they want to treat it as a "beginner skill" rather than a "high level skill". The probability of a white belt hitting me with a kyusho or DM technique are "slim to none". The possibility of someone Sandan or higher in rank would be "better", but someone with "master-level skills" could probably make it work without a problem... why, because they have the technique to make it work. They would also have the faith in the technique to use it to do what it is designed to do. Results might vary...

Seriously, though, DM takes "knowledge of the body" and an understanding of how to interrupt chi, balance chi, and resucitate people from the techniques of it. If you practice it as a side show, it garners the ridicule that is prevalent from the observers of "human stun gun" practitioners, and "pressure point NTKO" crowd. If you practice it as a fighting science and do it in the vein(sorry) of being a high-level fighting skill, it not only makes sense, but puts "another bullet in your gun" to use in self defense.

The original video of this thread showed something that no one has mentioned... which is the "resistance" to the DM training by the students who were struck by the teacher in the video. The teacher easily overcame them, even with their chi training to resist punches and present an "iron body" , but it was also clear that the reporter, who didn't have those skills, was easily disoriented with the touch. Regardless of your opinions regarding DM, it is clear from that video that you need some training to simply resist the skill. As you said in one of your earlier posts, the look on his face was "priceless".

My teacher used to tell me that "pain hurts whether you think the technique works or not"... it appears to be a "wiser, and wiser" statement as time goes along...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#368577 - 11/17/07 09:28 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
"Seriously, though, DM takes "knowledge of the body" and an understanding of how to interrupt chi, balance chi, and resucitate people from the techniques of it. If you practice it as a side show, it garners the ridicule that is prevalent from the observers of "human stun gun" practitioners, and "pressure point NTKO" crowd. If you practice it as a fighting science and do it in the vein(sorry) of being a high-level fighting skill, it not only makes sense, but puts "another bullet in your gun" to use in self defense."

Very well said.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#368578 - 11/17/07 11:32 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: underdog]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

"Seriously, though, DM takes "knowledge of the body" and an understanding of how to interrupt chi, balance chi, and resucitate people from the techniques of it.




I don't think knowledge of the body means knowing what time of the day to strike which point in what angle and direction.

Chi, I love that word. It means so much and yet so little. Everything is chi,nothing is chi. chi chi boom boom.

Quote:

If you practice it as a side show, it garners the ridicule that is prevalent from the observers of "human stun gun" practitioners, and "pressure point NTKO" crowd. If you practice it as a fighting science and do it in the vein(sorry) of being a high-level fighting skill, it not only makes sense, but puts "another bullet in your gun" to use in self defense."





In theory.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#368579 - 11/17/07 12:24 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: BrianS]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

I don't think knowledge of the body means knowing what time of the day to strike which point in what angle and direction.




No, but in the "waxing and waning of chi" it points you in the direction of which meridian points to use because of their "active cycles". Since you have no knowledge of this, you might as well be discussing cold fusion nuclear theory.

... and by the way, nobody is asking you to believe anything or in anything. It's a discussion for people who actually might have something to contribute beside snide remarks.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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