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#368560 - 11/16/07 04:05 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Ed, look at this picture printed in McCarthy's translation of the bubishi:

http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/patric4.gif

This picture is supposedly quite old. It has spleen points, lung points, Heart, Small Intesstine, Triple heater, Gall Bladder, etc, etc. Traditional Acupuncture is actually a point based system, not a meridian based. Look up the Kanji for a pressure points. The meridians were simply lines drawn to connect the points of a certain element together. together to aid in the learning process. PP's are considered to be external "access" points to deeper energetic pathways. Virtually everyone Meridian based system I have encountered teaches you that the actual pathway between points sways like a rope, which is why (and don't bite my head off or demand proof coz you won't receive a response) practitioners take a great deal of time to become sensitive to following the energy. The only thing I seen deviate from the translated "classics" to modern writings from and after the cultural revolution is where the lines connected the dots are, not the dots themselves. Which is really irrelevant because acupuncturists only access parts of the pathway (which funnily enough usually tally up with nerve junctions) and meridian works following the energetic, not a line on a 2D drawing.

It's these sorts of sweeping statements that irritates people mate. Bossman, BP, WT and others have spent years and years studying Western and eastern practices and knowledge by meeting experienced teachers and many hours of book studies to qualify there statements. How many books on Acupuncture have you actually read versus webpages? Not saying this to be hostile or belittling, but your seriously misrepresent one side of the impartial seemingly logical virtuous stand point of skepticism your standing from.

Grady - Thanks for your response. Gotta go for my lesson with Bossman now, but I'll reply later!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#368561 - 11/16/07 06:41 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: ButterflyPalm]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Thanks, BP... I haven't had too many kind words in this discussion...

I rimmed this earlier, but the loss of "classical skills" is what has done more to hide this information than just about anything else. If you can't make the right kind of strike, the point's moot to start with, so it's like arguing with the rain... shout all you want, you'll still get wet.

"To touch the heart" is a phrase I haven't heard for a long time in training... but I know what you're talking about. The problem with the "current" discussion is that we are talking to people with no knowledge of the art, only preconceived ideas and skepticism. Just from the conversation, I can glean that they do not have the traditional skills necessary to execute the techniques, so it's like two fleas arguing over which one owns the dog... they can bite and irritate, but produce no useful dialog to understand DM.

Like engineering, you have to have more than the book of standards to design something. You have to understand basic principles, have basic techniques and skills that are used in the process, and then develop the idea using those tools to produce a product.

A rookie draftsman can paint a picture of something, using what skills he has, but I don't want him designing the building I'm in, or the bridge I'm crossing... DM skills are high-level skills, which is another reason they weren't generally taught to the "class", but reserved to the "exceptional" students. The nuances make all the difference...

Gotta go to work... thanks for the kind words. Much appreciated...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#368562 - 11/16/07 07:48 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
little side-story for you (unfortunately, a commercial first):

"phantom cell phone vibrations"
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=4226712&cl=5026262&src=news

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#368563 - 11/16/07 09:35 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
btw Gavin, that map you reference...it's a redraw. it was likely based on this one:
http://www.fightingarts.com/content02/graphics/bubishi_2_2.jpg

side by side:



but you can check with Mr. McCarthy on that and ask where he got his drawings from.

Which map do you like better? take your pick.

(and since it's in Chinese, the characters are called Hanzi or Han. 'Kanji' is Japanese.)

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#368564 - 11/16/07 09:59 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
some more points of interest:

http://chinese-school.netfirms.com/acupuncture-points.html
Quote:


Acupuncture Facts

A FEW COMMONLY USED ACUPUNCTURE POINTS

In ancient times, the number of acupuncture points was established to be the same as the number of days in the year: 365. These points were mapped to 14 major meridian lines, one meridian for each of the 12 inner organs, one meridian along the spine (called the governing vessel), and another along the midline of the abdomen (called the conception vessel). More recently, the number of points identified by acupuncturists has exploded. There are extra meridians (some of them outlined in ancient times, others modern) with their own sets of points, there are special points (off meridians), and there are complete mappings of body structures and functions by points along the outer ears, on the nose, in the scalp, on the hands, on the feet, and at the wrists and ankles. Despite the growing number of treatment zones, most acupuncturists still utilize the traditionally-identified points on the 14 main meridians.







Quote:


Acupuncture Facts

Ancient Acupuncture Theories

The understanding of how acupuncture works has evolved with its practice, but the descriptions set down a thousand years ago have largely been retained. The dominant function of acupuncture is to regulate the circulation of qi (vital energy) and blood. Approximately 2,000 years ago, the pre-eminent acupuncture text, Huangdi Neijing (Yellow Emperor’s Classic on Internal Medicine), was written. In it, acupuncture was described as a means of letting out excess qi or blood by making holes in the body along certain pathways, called jingluo (meridians). For some of these meridians, it was advised to acupuncture in such a way as to let out the blood but not the qi; for others, to let out the qi, but not the blood. Many diseases were thought to enter the body through the skin, and then penetrate inward through muscle, internal organs, and, if not cured in timely fashion, to the marrow of the bone. By inserting a needle to the appropriate depth—to correspond with the degree of disease penetration—the disease could be let out.

Prior to the time when there were microscopes by which people could envision individual cells and before autopsies revealed the intricate structures within the body, doctors and scholars projected the internal workings of the body from what they could actually experience, which was the world outside the body. On this basis, the workings of the body were described in terms similar to those used to describe the visible world. One of the critical aspects of nature for humans living a thousand years ago, when Chinese civilization was well developed, was the system of water courses, which included tiny streams, huge rivers, man-made canals and irrigation systems, and the ocean. It was envisioned that the body had a similar system of moving, life-giving fluid. This fluid was the qi, and the pathways through which it flowed were the meridians.

Instead of discussing acupuncture in terms of letting something out of the body, physicians began describing it in terms of regulating something within the body. The flow of qi through the meridians, just like the flow of water through a stream, could be blocked off by an obstruction—a dam across the waterway. In the streams, this might be a fallen tree or a mud slide; in humans, it might be caused by something striking the body, the influence of bad weather, or ingestion of improper foods. When a stream is blocked, it floods above the blockage, and below the blockage it dries up. If one goes to the point of blockage and clears it away, then the stream can resume its natural course. In a like manner, if the qi in the meridian becomes blocked, the condition of the body becomes disordered like the flooding and dryness; if one could remove the blockage from the flow of qi within a meridian, the natural flow could be restored.

In a blocked stream, just cutting a small hole or crevice in the blockage will often clear the entire stream path, because the force of the water that penetrates the hole will widen it continuously until the normal course is restored. In the human body, inserting a small needle into the blocked meridian will have a similar effect. Just as a stream may have certain points more easily accessed (or more easily blocked), the meridians have certain points which, if treated by needling, will have a significant impact on the flow pattern. Many acupuncture points are named for geological structures: mountains, streams, ponds, and oceans.

Although this description of the basic acupuncture concept is somewhat simplified, it conveys the approach that is taught today to students of traditional acupuncture: locate the areas of disturbance, isolate the main blockage points, and clear the blockage. Of course, many layers of sophistication have been added to this model, so that the needling—which might be carried out in several different ways—can be seen to have subtle and differing effects depending upon the site(s) needled, the depth and direction of needling, and even the chemical composition of the needle (such as gold, silver, or steel). For example, some needling techniques are used for the primary purpose of increasing the flow of qi in a meridian without necessarily removing any blockage; other techniques reduce the flow of qi in the meridians. These tonifying and draining methods, as well as transference methods that help move qi from one meridian to another, are part of the more general aim of balancing the flow of qi in the body.

Ultimately, all the descriptions of acupuncture that are based on the traditional model involve rectifying a disturbance in the flow of qi. If the qi circulation is corrected, the body can eliminate most symptoms and eventually—with proper diet, exercise, and other habits—overcome virtually all disease.





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#368565 - 11/16/07 10:28 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:


(and since it's in Chinese, the characters are called Hanzi or Han. 'Kanji' is Japanese.)





Knowing your experience with Japan, I presumed you'd be more familiar with the Kanji..thanks for the pull up though!

As for the rest of the stuff...erm yeah. Different pictures...yep. New points? Maybe. The history of OM is extremely dynamic and based on the fashionable thinkers of the time and varied greatly through the provinces. Just looking back at the inclusion of 5 element theory in the "medical" training throughout Chinas history shows how concept slip in and out of fashion. An interesting side line of study that I really haven't had the time to really explore as much as I'd like. Unfortunately oriental medical history isn't on my Shiatsu curriculum. Something to pursue if I ever graduate!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#368566 - 11/16/07 10:32 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
here's the key sentance/disclaimer:
Quote:

If the qi circulation is corrected, the body can eliminate most symptoms and eventually—with proper diet, exercise, and other habits—overcome virtually all disease.





well, what if we compare people who just have "proper diet, exercise, and other habits" and NO qi correction.
VS.
qi corrected people who also have "proper diet, exercise, and other habits"

?

My instinct says that improvements in both test groups would be very good with insignificant differences.

"proper diet, exercise, and other habits" is the key that gets you 99% of the improvement that qi healers are quick to take credit for.


I guess my thinking is applying that same test to Dim Mak.

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#368567 - 11/16/07 10:45 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Another question...just to keep the thread flowing. If DM actually translates to "artery press" and is associated with the blood I think it could be worth looking at the notion of "Blood" as it applies to chinese thinking. The Heart in Oriental Medicine is considered to be the home of the Shen (the spirit or mind) and Blood the anchor of the Shen, providing a tranquil environment for the Shen to reside in. Does DM theory catalog or take into account the psychological and spiritual aspects of attacking the "Blood" or is it merely concerned with the red stuff we use the term to describe in the west?
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#368568 - 11/16/07 06:47 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
DM literally means "touch" (dim) "pulse" (mak). I think it's based on the inter-relationship of blood and qi - qi moves the blood. Disorders in the movement of qi results in abnormal blood circulation. So the theory is based on the idea of disrupting qi flow to disrupt normal blood circulation - which in turn affects internal bodily function.

But of course this is entirely hypothetical... assuming qi exists and if it did, whether it performs such functions, and whether such functions can be affected by external stimulus.

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#368569 - 11/16/07 07:08 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Yeah that I understand, but I'm inquiring about the more Chinese medical thinking of Blood which is different from how we in the west would define it, particularly in the times these theories were being contemplated.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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