FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 49 Guests and 2 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Shanktotheright, royal, bobgalle100011, agenonline, TooNice
22862 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
THEFOREVERMAN 3
Dobbersky 2
MattJ 2
royal 2
UKfightfreak 1
April
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30
New Topics
Judo Olympic Games 1964 Tokyo, The Video Gallery
by ergees
04/01/14 05:26 AM
Muay Thai Seminar with Greg Nelson - Marcus Charle
by Marcus Charles
03/24/14 04:39 PM
Fighting On Saturday!!!
by Dobbersky
03/20/14 05:45 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
AKK kata question
by
09/04/05 01:27 PM
Recent Posts
Fighting On Saturday!!!
by THEFOREVERMAN
04/16/14 08:22 AM
Muay Thai Seminar with Greg Nelson - Marcus Charle
by THEFOREVERMAN
04/16/14 08:20 AM
AKK kata question
by MattJ
04/04/14 05:45 PM
Judo Olympic Games 1964 Tokyo, The Video Gallery
by ergees
04/01/14 05:26 AM
Forum Stats
22862 Members
36 Forums
35546 Topics
432378 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 12 of 16 < 1 2 ... 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 >
Topic Options
#368540 - 11/14/07 06:55 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

How can healing be wholistic and long-term, yet the destructive be pinpointed and immediate? sounds like two different systems are being affected - yet they draw from the same conceptual model.


I guess the issue here is... is the model robust and reliable? Is it descriptive, prescriptive or predictive? I'm afraid that's something people will have to draw their own conclusions. I simply do not know enough to be able to comment.

At a guess, I will hazard that it may be some of the above, all of the above, or none of the above. It may be incomplete, given our (collective) knowledge of MWM. It may be complete, in it's own right - based on what people understood 5000 years ago. It may still be relevant, or it may not.

In any case, we are dealing with functional human systems, although the whole concept of what is "functional" is completely different in TCM, to how MWM views "functional". Because everything in TCM is related and inter-related, "function" has a different connotation and is "explained" by completely different "functional" concepts.

The body is a self-regulating, self-healing mechanism, and dependent on a number of external and internal factors - genetics, immunology, diet, exercise, lifestyle, etc. As we get older, our ability to self-regulate and heal slows down and regresses. A cut can be inflicted instantaneously, but it doesn't heal instantaneously. Herbs and other orally administered medications take time and repeated doses to take effect. That's just how the body works. Which is why we now have other, more "invasive" methods of sub-cutaenous, intravenous and inhalation drug delivery systems.

At the end of the day, we're simply dealing with a body of knowledge, and with any body of knowledge, further research and analysis adds to and detracts from it, refines it, deposes it, or supplants it. How much energy (no pun intended) you put into it is up to you.

Top
#368541 - 11/14/07 10:28 PM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Eyrie,
I'm going to try to play nice, but if this gets off in the dirt again, I'm totally out of the thread. Brian, sorry if you think that was condescending, but it's hard to carry on a conversation with people when all they do is tee off on you and ridicule whatever you say. That doesn't give me the idea they're trying to learn anything... they're just being a$$es.

Gavin, thanks for pulling things back together here. I also wanted to have some conversation, which was impossible between snipers... so here goes...

First of all, the assumption everyone appears to have is that it's as simple as "hitting a point" and somebody drops dead six days later. It's a hell of a lot more complicated than that...

Ed very snidely mentioned that today we were using a map drawn 500 years ago of the meridians, but how much of the human body has changed in the last 500 years, Ed... arms growing in different places? Legs located differently? Has your heart changed locations?.. obviously not... so why would the meridians change? The vagueness of the charts was intentional, and even deceptive in some cases to prevent anyone from "stealing the secrets" of the DM teacher's technique... and they were on scrolls, which allowed some latitude in how the information was actually charted.

Now, I'm sure that everyone that does karate or boxing, or any type of hitting art is proud of their punches... but what kind of energy do they deliver with them? If DM simply depended on force, the biggest guy in the class would be the most deadly... but it doesn't work that way. Like the commotio cortis article Ed cited, the strike also has to interrupt the snyaptic delivery of nerve messages to particular parts of the body, or create a "blockage" that prevents "ordinary transmission" of nerve information to interrupt organ functions. An ordinary punch won't work... and most "trained" karate people don't use punches that create "frequency operative" punches... they deliver a lot of force, but the residence time of their punch with the target dissipates any "frequency transmission" that takes part between parties. Piling one of them into the solar plexus or gastroneimus plexus will get the job done, but for the most part, DM is much more suttle than that, attacking specific areas with (for lack of a better term) a "fa jing" punch. If you don't understand that term, look on Tai Chi World's site and there is a video clip to teach you what it is... not necessarily how to do it.

A commonly overlooked characteristic of the body is that of the skeletal system, which is a perfect conductor of vibration. The systems that cause motion in the body are all connected to the skeleton, so the use of specific points in striking can be used to transmit vibration to those points that are connected to convergent tissue relating to specific organs and body functions. The "fingers" of nerve tissues all over the body are sensitive to the vibration in the bone structure, so while the "force to this point will knock you out", it is not only possible, but probable that strikes to sensitive points totally unrelated to where a strike occurs can cause an anomolie-type reaction by getting a "vibration message" from the bone structures rather than something by direct attack.

Ed was correct when he stated that dim mak actually means "to press on an artery"... for many of the techniques are designed to cause blood clots, strokes, etc. by using the circulatory system to "do the job". Again, the points haven't changed in the last 500 years, so if the technique is done correctly, it should work, unless there is medical intervention to remedy it... and a lot of the old methods DO have treatments today. The more "immediate death" techniques require attention almost immediately, but many of the techniques that once worked flawlessly (because of the lack of medical knowledge) are entirely reversible with care from the local emergency room.

Now, before you start thinking that ALL DM techniques are fixable, look at the hospital records of people with failing organs. A well-placed strike that, for instance, caused the liver to begin to disfunction, could cause an "avalanche effect" of organ failures if the victim resisted seeking treatment, or simply "waited too late" to seek treatment. "Code Blue" happens all the time to relatively healthy people in hospitals, so what makes it inconceivable in a DM victim? When this practice was most commonly used, the health of the population was quite predictable because the medical assistance available was limited... so it was pretty predictable that people would "die in 20 days" from "this strike" or in 90 days from "that strike"...

There is a lot of injury that can be caused by simply hitting "pressure points" which are coincident as DM points. The lung meridian is particularly sensitive, and repeated attacks to those areas can cause lots of both allergy, breathing, and lung problems if they are not treated, but if there are also injuries to (for instance) the liver meridian, then the general health of the person can deteriorate significantly.

The actual "legend" of the "death touch" never really existed... it was known as "poisoned hand death touch" because of it's predictable results, and was taught more significantly among tai chi systems and actually changed over to "kyusho" once it left the Chinese mainland... but a lot of the more secretive techniques were never transferred to "outsiders". The real DM involved very particular training in how to strike properly, how to deliver "vibrating" punches and strikes, and very closely guarded hitting points in the body to create the particular effects that the "master" of the system used to conduct his business.

That's all for right now... I'm tired of typing...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Top
#368542 - 11/15/07 12:02 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
From a martial perspective, there's only 4 things of real interest which may or may not even be remotely related to the subject at hand:
1. Neurological disruption, paralysis or shutdown
2. Causing breathing difficulties or to stop it entirely
3. Arrhytmia, tachycardia, cardiac infarction and other cardio-vascular related dysfunction or arrest, including stroke, pulmonary embolism, aneurysm, arterial blockage, compression or collapse of arterial wall, blood pressure manipulation, - shock, syncope, dizziness etc. etc. etc. AND
4. Internal damage - herniation, tissue tears and ruptures, hematomas, internal hemorrhage, organ perforation, impairment of normal organ function, organ dysfunction and ultimately failure - possibly leading to cascade failure and shutdown of other internal systems etc.

Some points provide access to neuro-stimulation and pain reception. Some areas like the carotid sinus allow you to manipulate BP. Others provide access to affect the heart's electrical conduction system. And so on...

I think one could generally agree that, causing any sort of damage on any of these 4 levels, may be comparatively easier than reversing or rectifying the damage - if at all.

So, whether you believe the DM point-meridian model is beside the point. Fact is, the human body is generally designed the same way. The point-meridian model is simply a map... and a map is only useful if instructions went with it. This was another way of keeping secrets... even if the "map" fell into the wrong hands, without the oral transmissions, the map is virtually useless.

I still think it's pretty amazing that 5000 years ago, without the benefit of what we now know, through scientific and technological progress, that they were even able to map out points and meridians, and develop some sort of working model to describe the functional processes and inter-relationships involved in the workings of the human body.

Top
#368543 - 11/15/07 12:42 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
when you were trained in DM technique, what was the indicator, other than from the instructor, that you were doing it correctly?

also, I believe 'fajing' power generation is misunderstood....even by many folks in IMA. 'quivering palm' and all that folklore hype.

Even though the rapid muscle contraction along with simultaneous loosness is similar to a controlled twitch - the objective isn't to transmit vibration...it's to transmit mass at a high speed over a short distance. but let's say for the sake of argument that you are transmitting vibration. Am I to believe you can control the frequency of that vibration so that it interrupts the natural cycles of the body within the 20 millisecond window of when that typical cycle is susceptable? wouldn't that timing be left to chance with a very low probability? Assuming humans even can emit a frequency that high and with enough intensity to disrupt nerve signals, that is.

If that were true, then I wonder if there has been any accidental deaths when someone shuffles along a carpet and transmits a static shock when touching another person.

Maybe coupling that vibration theory along with static electricity is where they got the idea for the name 'human taser'?

Top
#368544 - 11/15/07 01:26 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

Ed very snidely mentioned that today we were using a map drawn 500 years ago of the meridians, but how much of the human body has changed in the last 500 years, Ed... arms growing in different places? Legs located differently? Has your heart changed locations?.. obviously not... so why would the meridians change? The vagueness of the charts was intentional, and even deceptive in some cases to prevent anyone from "stealing the secrets" of the DM teacher's technique... and they were on scrolls, which allowed some latitude in how the information was actually charted.





you contradict yourself. how can the maps be both accurate and intentionally vague?

anyway,
first you say that since the human anatomy hasn't changed. I agree, although health and disease suceptability are different...but the biggest difference is life expectancy. If people were only living till 35, there was a much greater chance that someone would happen to die of something after you hit them. after a few coincidences, the magical thinker could leap to the conclusion that his hit caused the death or deterioration in health.

but thats just hypothetical showing how magical thinking works - I'm not saying the Chinese came up with meridian charts as a result of happenstance...I at least give it more credit than that. however it's not entirely inconceivable that some details were filled in using that kind of thinking.


here is the largest disconnect in your logic - you say the old charts depict the same human body as we have today, therefore meridian theory is still valid. well...are you actually using the old charts? or are you using the revised charts from the 1950's which were altered to be more in line with modern anatomy knowledge? and is it my imagination, or did the number of points grow dramatically? modern detailed computer generated accupuncture charts have literally thousands of points...yet the charts they are based on have a few dozen crudely shown in freehand.

What body of emperical knowledge was used to extrapolate (or I should say interpolate) those new points? any ideas?

I know the answer. The Chinese government commissioned a team of CCM and MWM guys to come up with the new paradim of 'TMA'. The motivation for doing so after WWII? This did 2 things at once. It moved people in a direction who were unwilling to stop CCM in favor of western medicine. plus, it created a regulated industry. They first tried to move people away from CCM completely during the 1930's push to modernization - but that resistance plus WWII left them with having to comprimize. hence today in China, almost every hospital offers both (but of course not on equal ground) ...which I'm sure they had no idea would later become a billions of dollars export during a 'new age wellness lifestyle' trend.

many of the same chinese pharmeceudical companies that make stuff like viagra, rydilin and birth control to modern western hospitals around the world are also the very same labs making 'all natural' and 'Herbal' Gensing, Gan Mao Ling, and hair loss pills made from pulverized donkey-diicks.

I tell ya...they are shrewd in business and street-smart in the world-sense if they make billions exporting this stuff.


another really strange TCM 'pill' I saw in Japan... it was chips off a deer's hoof. it looked like shavings from a fingernail clipper - suppossedly take one of those a day and it 'prevents' liver disease. hey, after a heavy night of drinking a brand of sake that tasted like lighter fluid, I said what the 'ell and munched on one of those deer toenails. yep! it must have worked, I didn't get liver disease that day.

Top
#368545 - 11/15/07 01:49 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ed,
there's more than one way to skin a cat, but not many ways that the cat likes it...

You seem wrapped up in minutia and never see the whole picture of anything. I'm surprised you didn't pull out your study by the fraud police on acupuncture again (which is 17 years old) and wave it like the sword of Gideon...

You're overly concerned that "somebody can't do something", so to me that translates "I can't do it so it's impossible"... Maybe if you actually pulled off the role of total skeptic and actually tried to see beyond your reasons things can't be done, you'd get further along.

I taught an Aikido class tonight, and spent almost an hour getting people to do things we had told them to do dozens of times... they listened, and went right back to bending their arms the way they did before the class, stepping incorrectly, and trying to muscle techniques that only require proper body mechanics. The difference in the techniques is startling when you do it right, and most of the time, all I heard out of the students was "I can't"....

Maybe the difference in what I've learned over the years, and what you're skeptical of, is that I can follow directions, and repeat behaviors, so it looks amazing when you see me do it compared to somebody that doesn't follow the instructions. DM training was the same way... "strike at this angle, and hit this corresponding point..."

I won't go into the specifics of my punching techniques or the vibration generation, but they weren't "secret classes"... they were just good technique and done correctly. The only "magic" was in the results and in the ability to strike effortlessly.

I don't think I've ever stated that I controlled the vibration cycles of my punch (which I may or may not do), but that seems to be the only criteria you want to use for measuring whether or not the techniques would work. I don't know if you know anything about harmonics, but you can generate all kinds of vibration cycles harmonically that would probably fit the "commotio cordis" arrythmia criteria and cause heart problems. Nothing has just one frequency... if it has a frequency, it has a harmonic... and it also has a "dissipating harmonic" which dies off as the signal dies off... so it isn't just a matter of learning the "secret handshake" of the vibrating palm.

Roll up a newspaper tightly, and give yourself a whack on the arm or leg with it... then take a quarter inch dowel and pop yourself in the same place. Which one hurts? Both is the correct answer, but the frequency of the impacts is different, and the surface area affected is different... and unless all your muscles, bones, and nerves are neatly strung out in geometric patterns, you have to hit the right places to get the same effects even if you hit with the same tools.

The body is a fluid capsule, and traps vibration, so there is a lot of wave motion in the body that goes unnoticed unless know how to use it, and part of the DM training involves that particular base of knowledge as well... and unlike the acupuncture points being used for healing, the DM points are being used to shut down body systems and cause damage inside the body capsule... and contrary to popular belief, killing isn't the main thrust of DM. There are techniques to cause nausea, diarhhea, internal bleeding, constipation, mental problems... a whole raft of "body problems" which may or may not eventually lead to death. Several of the points in the head and carotid sinus are noted for being "stroke" points, and simply take advantage of the plaque or clots in your blood vessels to cause a stroke by hitting and causing it to dislodge. I'm sure the guys who discovered the points didn't have a clue why it worked, but it was consistently successful, so they didn't argue with the success. They simply put it on the chart.

You said
Quote:

the objective isn't to transmit vibration...it's to transmit mass at a high speed over a short distance


which is "your theory"... not mine. I have more than adequate skills to do the chore you're touting, but again you only understand force transmission as a punching skill... and it shows with that statement.

It's late, I'm tired, and maybe we'll continue sometime later on... another day. I need sleep.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Top
#368546 - 11/15/07 02:20 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:


You seem wrapped up in minutia and never see the whole picture of anything. I'm surprised you didn't pull out your study by the fraud police on acupuncture again (which is 17 years old) and wave it like the sword of Gideon...

You're overly concerned that "somebody can't do something", so to me that translates "I can't do it so it's impossible"... Maybe if you actually pulled off the role of total skeptic and actually tried to see beyond your reasons things can't be done, you'd get further along.




once again, it's not necessary to cut me down to build your points. (people see right thru that tactic by now, so you can give it a rest.)

Quote:

Maybe the difference in what I've learned over the years, and what you're skeptical of, is that I can follow directions, and repeat behaviors, so it looks amazing when you see me do it compared to somebody that doesn't follow the instructions. DM training was the same way... "strike at this angle, and hit this corresponding point..."



I'm not sceptical of following directions. I'm skeptical of following them blindly. and your remark is very telling....all you need is to be told where and how to hit. thats it? the rest you just believe? "hit at this point at a 30 degree angle and the person will literally crap their pants with a violent diarreha spincter spasm." uh huh.

Quote:


I won't go into the specifics of my punching techniques or the vibration generation, but they weren't "secret classes"... they were just good technique and done correctly. The only "magic" was in the results and in the ability to strike effortlessly.



same here. except I still train, so I'd say this in the present tense.

Quote:


I don't think I've ever stated that I controlled the vibration cycles of my punch (which I may or may not do), but that seems to be the only criteria you want to use for measuring whether or not the techniques would work. I don't know if you know anything about harmonics, but you can generate all kinds of vibration cycles harmonically that would probably fit the "commotio cordis" arrythmia criteria and cause heart problems. Nothing has just one frequency... if it has a frequency, it has a harmonic... and it also has a "dissipating harmonic" which dies off as the signal dies off... so it isn't just a matter of learning the "secret handshake" of the vibrating palm.




matter of fact I do know something about harmonics. and I know it doesn't apply here. cancelling a wave takes the same precision timing beyond the capabilities of humans....not just me...humans.





Roll up a newspaper tightly, and give yourself a whack on the arm or leg with it... then take a quarter inch dowel and pop yourself in the same place. Which one hurts? Both is the correct answer, but the frequency of the impacts is different, and the surface area affected is different... and unless all your muscles, bones, and nerves are neatly strung out in geometric patterns, you have to hit the right places to get the same effects even if you hit with the same tools.



uuhh...smaller surface area concentrates the impact - larger area disapates it. think I learned that in grade school when comparring the difference between getting hit with the flat of a ruler vs. the edge.

Quote:


The body is a fluid capsule, and traps vibration, so there is a lot of wave motion in the body that goes unnoticed unless know how to use it, and part of the DM training involves that particular base of knowledge as well... and unlike the acupuncture points being used for healing, the DM points are being used to shut down body systems and cause damage inside the body capsule... and contrary to popular belief, killing isn't the main thrust of DM. There are techniques to cause nausea, diarhhea, internal bleeding, constipation, mental problems... a whole raft of "body problems" which may or may not eventually lead to death. Several of the points in the head and carotid sinus are noted for being "stroke" points, and simply take advantage of the plaque or clots in your blood vessels to cause a stroke by hitting and causing it to dislodge. I'm sure the guys who discovered the points didn't have a clue why it worked, but it was consistently successful, so they didn't argue with the success. They simply put it on the chart.



Thats really the cental question of Dim Mak, isn't it. How are you 'sure'? all based upon faith? plus as you say, they obsurred their charts so without the teaching that went along with it, how can you be sure?


Quote:

but again you only understand force transmission as a punching skill... and it shows with that statement.



you assume alot.


g'night.

Top
#368547 - 11/15/07 02:41 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

you assume alot.


I think it works both ways...

I saw nothing wrong with Grady's response. He is right on the button on many points, including the seemingly overt concern with minutiae and the idea that if "I can't do it, then it is physically impossible that someone else could", and he is especially right on the harmonic and vibrational frequency, and the body being a fluid capsule. Just because you or I can't do it, doesn't invalidate it.

Seems like you're still harping on the believability issue, which for you is still an issue of faith. Perhaps if you were to change your perspective from one of ignorant skeptic to one of inquiring scientist (who can also be skeptical), you may be able to approach it differently.

It's not black magic or bogus science... you're just reading too much into it.

Just a friendly suggestion...

Top
#368548 - 11/15/07 07:14 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Ed, I think you've slipped back into to total skeptic mode and if I'd taken the time that Grady did to put those posts together I'd be a little insulted at the way you worded your response, does come across as belittling and setting him up for the kill. Just my opinion on how the wording could be conceived as hostile.

Grady,

Thanks for the clarification on some of the issues I had. Would I be correct in thinking that you not following a particular elemental sequence when setting these shots up, relying on multiply hits to score the desired results? That's one of my big issues with modern Kyusho, yeah it works well on a dumb uke, but a resisting dynamic opponent I just can't picture the complex sequences landing true. The idea of a single shot fired off with a specific method of impact going in seems a lot more plausible.

I think sometimes using the word "vibration" may point people in the wrong direction when we are talking about different methods of power delivery. As most MA's think in terms of external visually perceivable "vibrating" and would try actually physically vibrating their hand. I often think describing the quality of the shot is easier to conceive. Most karateka would be familiar with terms such as "Heavy shot", "sharp shot" or "a heavy shot right into the core", and heavy, light, deep and the like are really as far as most MA's go into power delivery, or more precisely impact delivery. When you say to someone I'm going to let the power go in as far as the kidney, most would think you mad. But a carpenter can fairly accurately decide how far they'll drive a nail into a piece of wood. Ask them to describe how they do it and they'll say something, "I hit it hard enough to drive it in that far." Sometimes its quite hard for people who don't have the sensitivity to appreciate how precisely power can be delivered. On a bag you can consciously decide how deep the shot will go. You decide the result and your body takes care of the rest by accessing the ability through its prior training.

So I think its worth pointing out that Grady isn't talking about picking a frequency to vibrate is punch at anymore than a carpenter mentally contemplates the physics involved in hitting a nail in. It's a skill the body has learnt how to do over a period of time. A football player picks a spot and kicks the ball, with prior experience to go on he'll be making the adjustments autonomically to cater for the environmental conditions, in his head he just thinks "Kick ball" the despite how complex the physical process.

Just to keep the conversation on track!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

Top
#368549 - 11/15/07 07:50 AM Re: This is worth watching. [Re: Gavin]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Yeah, I don't think it's about vibrating the hand... More like a "wave" maybe...

Also, the body does respond to certain vibrational frequencies. Sounds, chanting, kotodama etc. have long been a part of various qigong practices. Something about using the lower abdomen like a drum.... or developing it so...

Here's one example:
http://shouyuliang.com/index.php/2007-Ma...-of-Speech.html

Top
Page 12 of 16 < 1 2 ... 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 >


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga