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#367704 - 10/31/07 12:03 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: BrianS]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:

When you say Joss has "Officially" hurt your feelings, did you mean:-

--- he did it 'in an official role', or,

--- he did it 'with official authorisation', or,

--- he did it 'formally' ?, or,

--- none of the above, and if so, what did you actually mean by "officially?"






I know, but right now I'd rather concede than p!ss people off.




I think I can see your valid point on you deciding to concede about this subject.

Jude

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#367705 - 10/31/07 12:06 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: ButterflyPalm]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

So, what you are saying is, as Victor sees it, (a) is "fighting" and (b) is "not fighting"?




I dont know. Maybe if someone asked Victor what he meant? Otherwise a lot of this discussion seems to be going around in circles.

Jude

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#367706 - 10/31/07 12:50 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

When you say Joss has "Officially" hurt your feelings, did you mean:-

--- he did it 'in an official role', or,

--- he did it 'with official authorisation', or,

--- he did it 'formally' ?, or,

--- none of the above, and if so, what did you actually mean by "officially?"






I know, but right now I'd rather concede than p!ss people off.




I think I can see your valid point on you deciding to concede about this subject.

Jude




For someone who doesn't like to argue you sure do it alot! I'll bet you just can't stand yourself. PooPoo head.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#367707 - 10/31/07 01:23 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: Shonuff]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi David,

I think you've summed up my point correctly;

"I think Victor is talking about the difference in mentality between:
a) squaring up to the opponent with a fighting gaurd, circling, testing with a jab or two before throwing a striking combination to work into an opening etc etc
as opposed to:
b) moving in straight to destroy/disable an attacking adversary as quickly as possible."

This does not mean I'm against using a) as a tool but not the end focus of my art.

It does tend to come down to how we define the term fighting after all.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#367708 - 10/31/07 01:37 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: BrianS]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:




I think I can see your valid point on you deciding to concede about this subject.

Jude




For someone who doesn't like to argue you sure do it alot! I'll bet you just can't stand yourself. PooPoo head.





I said I avoid personal conflicts. Arguments done correctly can be informative. Arguments over silly things I dont tend to bother with.

Hows the judo?

Jude

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#367709 - 10/31/07 03:12 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Hows the judo?





The Judo is really cool!! I wish our sensei thought we as a group are going to be ready for the tournament in January, but he wants us to have six months in it first.

Re: Karate = fighting.

I can see most sides of the arguement and I still stand by my statements that using karate to stop,injure, prevent whatever,etc in whatever context is fighting.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#367710 - 10/31/07 07:46 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: BrianS]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
What I will agree with that Karate is not all you need to MMA fight the same could be said of Judo or Jujitsu.

As for Karate not for fighting tell that to the older, bigger and stronger guys that use to kick my a$$ at will within 2-3 years of Karate training changed to the otherside of street and gave me respect. Karate is for self defense which equals a fight. Quick brutal and no rules. Everybody purpose for studying was and is different, in the high violent environment I once lived in. It cleaned some clocks = fighting.

If its not for effective fighting, I aplogized I used it wrong. My Bad. This was years ago maybe things are different now?



Edited by Neko456 (10/31/07 07:51 PM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#367711 - 11/14/07 11:31 AM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: Neko456]
Cafa Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 11
Hi guys, here's my opinion as an ex thai boxer, ex bouncer, and current Shotokan student (loving it), age 26.

First of all, blocks. The concept is an illusion, it's almost impossible to block a punch, especially against a wicked opponent who can throw punches at different speeds and with/without a delay in some part of the movement. In my best days I was able to throw 8 punches (left right left right...) in 1 second. Who can react 8 times per second? And there's no time whatsoever to do a block. Anyone trying to use blocks in the street will go down very fast. Even against a guy who has no MA training but has experience in fighting.

However, if you mentally prepare yourself, know your opponent is right handed, and you're 99% sure his first strike will be a right hand punch, then you can block and win in a second.

Second, it's also next to impossible to kick someone in the head. It can be done, but with a couple of solid moves to prepare the opponent. If you want to kick a guy in the head, you need to have a perfect instinct - something which you were or were not born with but even if you were, you need to train it before you can use it at all. And you can't do that in kata or in controlled sparring.

Chambering the rear fist...is a perfect way to change the previous paragraph and get kicked in the head.

Street fighting is brutal. No matter how many flying jump roundhouse shots you can do, if you're not a man who's willing to take some punishment, you're down. My point is, karate doesn't teach you to be brutal, not even kyokushin, and mostly you develop an illusion "I can't get hit there, this won't happen, that won't happen". Yes it will. The guy will bite your hand if he sees a chance. No matter how perfect your stance is.

I realised, when sparring against a karateka, it only takes a bit of wit to keep him off balance. Instead of trying to block, move away. Instead of having linear movement (Shotokan), circle around. Strike and move to the side.

As someone said, we're not in some apocalyptic scenario and we're not gladiators. You end up having civilians who can perform certain moves. And the fights are won by brutality, wit and most of all - luck. And karate has a concept that nothing is luck, you "can" control everything. No, you can't.

What I'm really trying to say is - karate techniques are just a weapon. They don't mean a thing if you're not a fighter. But if you are, then your fighting ability will increase. As long as you don't try to block...

So, there's a good point behind developing one's character in karate. That's what matters and that's what makes you a confident guy. Most potential fights can be resolved by posture alone.

And if you already got into a fight, pretend you're weak and sick and then strike full power...with a kiai

Maybe some of my arguments seem contradictory, but that's the way it is. The truth doesn't exist, the world is not black and white, tiny pieces of the truth is all we have. So there's not a definite answer on this subject.

Except that fighting is in your mind. It's an intellectual and a creative effort. So it doesn't really matter which techniques you use, you just need to be able to follow what your mind tells you. I mean, if you know it's logical to grab the guy by his neck but your training routines stop you from doing that, then you've just made an error, and you'll probably pay for it.

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#367712 - 11/15/07 06:54 AM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: Cafa]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Cafa,

The mental aspects, as you say, are very important in a confrontation. I agree to almost anything you say. But mental awareness is enhanced through confidence and ability. Wich comes from training and experience. An another important factor is fear.

On behalve of the non-block theory, as an ex thai boxer, would you not block a high kick to the temple or low kick ?
I consider holding your guard and have techniques land on your guard also blocking.
Because what would be the alternative if you cannot move away ? Only 'be faster' or clinch ?

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