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#367694 - 10/31/07 12:35 AM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: eyrie]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
I really do believe we are all talking around the same considerations. It is semantics, but putting a name to something does give it a depth of understanding that otherwise wouldn't be there.

And as for "struggle"....who says freedom is without cost or that the natural state of things is not such random chaos that freedom has a negative connotation where anything is allowed and the strong are allowed reign over the weak?

Is "peace" the quelling of the masses under authoritarian rule? Peace may be the product of Hobbesian consideration where self-interest plays more a role than compassion for compassion's sake.

Sometimes struggle and fighting are the only routes to salvation where too much meakness does engender the focused violence of those who would take from you instead of give.

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#367695 - 10/31/07 12:46 AM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: butterfly]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Ah the joys of language... I meant it in the Zen context...

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#367696 - 10/31/07 02:30 AM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: eyrie]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Sorry for misunderstanding. Call me a "zen"-ophobe.

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#367697 - 10/31/07 03:14 AM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: BrianS]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
When you say Joss has "Officially" hurt your feelings, did you mean:-

--- he did it 'in an official role', or,

--- he did it 'with official authorisation', or,

--- he did it 'formally' ?, or,

--- none of the above, and if so, what did you actually mean by "officially?"
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#367698 - 10/31/07 06:34 AM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Anyone ever seen the Jason Bourne movies?

When the lead character in those movies has a fight, every movement and technique he applies takes the shortest route to disabling the opponent.
Bourne is not setting up combinations or looking to wear the opponent down or create openings to make a single hit before figuring out the next shot as a ring fighter would do. When an opponent is not on Bournes level they attack and they are disabled/dead within one or two movements (maybe 3 if theres more than one person to deal with). More skilled opponents take more work but the same intent is present in the movements.

I think Victor is talking about the difference in mentality between:
a) squaring up to the opponent with a fighting gaurd, circling, testing with a jab or two before throwing a striking combination to work into an opening etc etc
as opposed to:
b) moving in straight to destroy/disable an attacking adversary as quickly as possible.

I think most martial artists tend to practice both, but I beleive that the two methods/mentalities are mutually exclusive because they intertfere with one another too much. Sparring trains us in method a), most movement or conditioning or sparring drills also train us in a). Method b) is primarily trained through one step attack and defence drills. The mentality of fighting/sparring is usually less direct, more cautious and ultimately less controlling, all of which counters the other methods drive to finish with the conflict.

I think some arts were clearly designed for fighting in this sense. I feel most southern kungfu styles and their derivatives were created with this in mind as they evolved after the culture of self defence had become more prevalent and so they began to focus on how to beat a trained opponent which brings in more of the skills associated with ring craft that were just not relevant before. Fighting in this sense is actually an evolution of the more fundamental self preservation philosophy held in method b).
This difference in mentallity is, in my view, why so many of the techniques of the ring such as jabs are so sparse in much of Karate's kata, and where practices such as the much derided traditional ippon and sanbon kumite descend from, i.e. in real fights where someone is out to kill or break you they do tend to throw all their weight into their attacks and really have no concern for their own balance or gaurd etc, which is what I see the oizuki as symbolising in those drills...

But I digress.


Edited by Shonuff (10/31/07 06:40 AM)
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#367699 - 10/31/07 06:53 AM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
I think the definition of fighting is to broad and to complexed to make a comment. It would be helpfull if the definition in this case was made. I think

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#367700 - 10/31/07 08:13 AM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: Shonuff]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
So, what you are saying is, as Victor sees it, (a) is "fighting" and (b) is "not fighting"?
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#367701 - 10/31/07 08:59 AM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Pretty much.

I think Victor's point was to hold up the distinction between the two mentalities in relation to the use of karate. Discussing these approaches might be more useful than quibbling over personal definitions of the term fighting.

Then again I could be mistaken and Victor may mean something entirely different.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#367702 - 10/31/07 09:23 AM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Blackrainbow Offline
Dragon

Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 220
Loc: Brandon Fl.USA
I don't believe that anyone is ever going to be able to define "fighting" in a context that is going to satisfy such a diverse group as we have here. Our opinions are going to be formed based on life experience, training, the reason why we train in MA, style, and I could go on forever. Get two people together in a quiet room. Say two ex U.S. Marines. One guy is a WW 2 vet who fought at Guadalcanal or Iwo Jima. The other guy served 4 years as a cook in the kitchen. They are both marines. Same exact training. Now, ask them both to define the essence of survival in a combat situation. We are all martial artist but we come from so many different styles each with a historical background that defines part of our training. Then there is the actual way that we train. Then throw in life experience and you have a mix that makes a simple defination of so simple a word as "fight" almost impossible. But I loved reading the opinions.
_________________________
You cannot defend against that which you do not understand

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#367703 - 10/31/07 10:00 AM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: ButterflyPalm]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

When you say Joss has "Officially" hurt your feelings, did you mean:-

--- he did it 'in an official role', or,

--- he did it 'with official authorisation', or,

--- he did it 'formally' ?, or,

--- none of the above, and if so, what did you actually mean by "officially?"






I know, but right now I'd rather concede than p!ss people off.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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