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#367684 - 10/30/07 12:56 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: butterfly]
brocksampson Offline
Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 112
Loc: Savannah, GA
Butterfly,
As you pointed out, things never go as planned with a resisting second party. It is a matter of control. Once you have the initiative in the fight you don't let the other guy have a chance. Two equally trained MA guys would theoretically be better able to counter each others moves (in an ideal world) going back and forth until one either gets and maintains the advantage or it ends in a draw. This is essentially sparring and again, outside of the dojo, highly unlikely. Good techniques can be countered by anybody, trained or not. Your training will hopefully help you by having had similar experience and good habits.

I honestly do not consider self defense training to be focused on trained or untrained attackers as martial artists are really not special. I mean we all break the same way don't we? If you're going to train, then train for Mike Tyson right? I most likely won't stop to ask for credentials once the punches start flying! If he is a trained/experienced fighter that's all the more reason to take him down first, take him down hard, and run like hell!

The points you make are legit. These are some of the reasons that fighting is a hard way to get by in life. There's always another guy fighting back.

After reading some of the more recent posts I see that we are on the same page here and your question was hypothetical. I apologize if I'm off base with the above.


Edited by brocksampson (10/30/07 01:03 PM)
_________________________
The more I learn, the more everything is the same.

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#367685 - 10/30/07 12:56 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: butterfly]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Butterfly: I think this is why Goju karate doesn't just focus on 'hit', 'stance' or 'block'. It also focuses on the 'in-between' stuff (that I don't have terms for).

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#367686 - 10/30/07 02:10 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: brocksampson]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Brock,

No apologies necessary. I actually believe that all the folk here are sharing the same basic ideals, but considering the view from slightly different vantages.

If we all agreed, then it would be a poor forum indeed.

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#367687 - 10/30/07 03:49 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: butterfly]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
This discussion is pure semantics, depending on the definition of "fighting". As always, we leap into it, without spending the time to agree on what we're talking about.

Fighting, to me, involves a give and take contest between competitors; relying on skill, stamina, determination, strength, quickness.... all those commendable traits.

Karate, to me, involves not competitors, but an attacker and one who is unwilling to participate in a fight but must defend him or her self. It has the purpose of eliminating the contest, or the"give and take" and of neutralizing strength and stamina. Thus it functions to provide safety to the weaker, older, smaller or less fit.

It functions to prevent injury by quickly and decisively incapacitating the attacker at the very beginning. Even though this may be done with violence, I would not term this violence as a fight.

But then... say it does not go as it should and the two end up in a monumental struggle of survival. Now that's a fight. But it ain't karate.

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#367688 - 10/30/07 05:45 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: Joss]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

This discussion is pure semantics, depending on the definition of "fighting". As always, we leap into it, without spending the time to agree on what we're talking about.





Please forgive us.

Quote:

Fighting, to me, involves a give and take contest between competitors; relying on skill, stamina, determination, strength, quickness.... all those commendable traits.

Karate, to me, involves not competitors, but an attacker and one who is unwilling to participate in a fight but must defend him or her self. It has the purpose of eliminating the contest, or the"give and take" and of neutralizing strength and stamina. Thus it functions to provide safety to the weaker, older, smaller or less fit.





A fight is a fight, whether you use karate or not. What's so hard to accept about that? That's not semantics, that's snobbery.

Quote:

It functions to prevent injury by quickly and decisively incapacitating the attacker at the very beginning. Even though this may be done with violence, I would not term this violence as a fight.





Sure, and it always goes just as planned in the dojo. There are just a bunch of uke's out there waiting to be instaneously incapacitated. It's a violent altercation where as we incapacitate people,but it's not a fight, it's karate. Sure, I buy that.

Quote:

But then... say it does not go as it should and the two end up in a monumental struggle of survival. Now that's a fight. But it ain't karate.




So, if it doesn't go as planned it is then a fight. Man, you should write webster and let him know the new use for the word fight.

Thanks for clearing that up.
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#367689 - 10/30/07 06:55 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: BrianS]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
The problem with language generally is that certain words can have several meanings, depending on the context, intent and tone.

In the case of the word "fight" - it has several shades and gradations of meaning, one of which implies contention in battle or physical combat - which I assume is what people generally think of and refer to when they say "fight". The word "contend" itself implies a "struggle".

Here's a thought, take this sentence for example:
"We must struggle for freedom"

Isn't the absence of struggle, freedom itself?

Likewise:
"We must fight for peace"

Isn't the absence of conflict (a synonym for fight), peace?

Compare this with the etymology of the word "bu" (as in "budo") - which is to stop the spears. It doesn't mean fight, but implies doing something to stop the fighting (as in war).

Dontcha just lurve the English language?

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#367690 - 10/30/07 09:41 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I agree with you. which is why I don't disagree when someone says chooses to use the word either way. personally, I make a distinction between a 'duel', 'confrontation', 'showdown', etc vs. 'defense', 'elimination of threat', and 'disarmiment' (weaponless meaning of the word, with no pun intended ).

'subdue' is an interesting gray area, since you could subdue a threat or subdue an opponent in a competition. perhaps thats the same gray area that people are using 'fight' as equally interchangable.


mental images help sometimes - imagine the difference between a pistol duel at 10 paces vs. a free-for-all shootout at the O.K. coral. One has 'gentleman rules' the other is no holds barred. both have a kill or be killed intent; but why then isn't dueling pistols at 10 paces called a 'battle' and a shootout not called a 'duel'?

now think of the subtlties of training method with a person training for a duel vs. a person training for shootouts. lot's of overlapping skillsets there. acuracy, speed, etc. the main things separating the two are perhaps tactic, range and mindset.


surely there is a distinction. -is the way I think about it anyway. it's mostly semantics, but yeah, there is something else.


Quote:

Of course you might always suggest that Ed show up some day and see if I know what I'm talking about, providing he has insurance. Doc always says he can fix anything, providing you insurance is good (just a joke of course).


You want me to 'take one for the team' in the name of scientific discovery? uuuhhh...no thanks. my imagination is well enough to feel something drop me at 25% to know it would do more if it were 100%. providing I'm not just standing there letting you demonstrate that 25% of course....that doesn't count as a valid test. I'd have to be allowed to deliver my own 25%.

some things just won't work at 25% though. a simple one is someone applying an armbar at gradual 1/4 power, but the person resisting is resisting immediately at 100% - they can escape it. does that mean armbars are worthless? who says the 'training armbar' is the same as a viscious armbar? instead of applying gradual pressure until they tap, you could easily opt to make it one swift and full extended snap crackle pop. I'm not going to volunteer to such a test, my imagination does just fine in getting the point across as oppossed to having my arm pinned together healing for 6 months to get the lesson....and being reminded of the lesson every time it rains.

some level of imagination has to play a part of training...you have to imagine what damage something could reasonably do if it were with no mercy intent. it's possible for imaginations to go to far though or even letting imagination substitute altogether...and thats what Unyu coins as the term 'hope karate'. meaning, for instance, some train while thinking (hoping) they can deter any frontal attack with a chambered punch in horse stance without actually doing the noncompliant 2-person work to see if it's even reasonable.


karate is/isn't for <objective>. doesn't depend on the objective itself, it depends on how honest you train towards that objective. first step: stop bullsh!tting yourself. for me, karate hasn't made me an all-around better fighter - I'm guessing since I haven't trained karate for all ranges. at best, I think it's improved initial response of someone coming at me. I'm a short guy so if I haven't finished it then, I'm suppossing I'm a' gonner. someone 1.5x my size would take away 30 years of training in a heartbeat if I don't get the first advantage.

good or bad training, right or wrong mindset - thats my objective in the technical/tactical sense. but even more than that is the more tangible and testable gain of simply the enjoyment in learning a physical Art.

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#367691 - 10/30/07 09:51 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: BrianS]
brocksampson Offline
Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 112
Loc: Savannah, GA
Quote:


A fight is a fight, whether you use karate or not. What's so hard to accept about that? That's not semantics, that's snobbery.




Main Entry:
seˇmanˇtics
Pronunciation:
\si-&#712;man-tiks\
Function:
noun plural but singular or plural in construction
Date:
1893

1: the study of meanings: a: the historical and psychological study and the classification of changes in the signification of words or forms viewed as factors in linguistic development


Nope, it's semantics according to our friend Webster! So the discussion has come down to defining the meaning of the word "fight"? I'm afraid this thread has now lost it's potential.
_________________________
The more I learn, the more everything is the same.

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#367692 - 10/30/07 10:36 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: BrianS]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Quote:

Quote:

This discussion is pure semantics, depending on the definition of "fighting". As always, we leap into it, without spending the time to agree on what we're talking about.





Please forgive us.

Quote:

Fighting, to me, involves a give and take contest between competitors; relying on skill, stamina, determination, strength, quickness.... all those commendable traits.

Karate, to me, involves not competitors, but an attacker and one who is unwilling to participate in a fight but must defend him or her self. It has the purpose of eliminating the contest, or the"give and take" and of neutralizing strength and stamina. Thus it functions to provide safety to the weaker, older, smaller or less fit.





A fight is a fight, whether you use karate or not. What's so hard to accept about that? That's not semantics, that's snobbery.

Quote:

It functions to prevent injury by quickly and decisively incapacitating the attacker at the very beginning. Even though this may be done with violence, I would not term this violence as a fight.





Sure, and it always goes just as planned in the dojo. There are just a bunch of uke's out there waiting to be instaneously incapacitated. It's a violent altercation where as we incapacitate people,but it's not a fight, it's karate. Sure, I buy that.

Quote:

But then... say it does not go as it should and the two end up in a monumental struggle of survival. Now that's a fight. But it ain't karate.




So, if it doesn't go as planned it is then a fight. Man, you should write webster and let him know the new use for the word fight.

Thanks for clearing that up.







Ohhhh nooo. I sooowwwy nnoww Bwyyahn. I ahways agweee witchoo nowww Bwyaaan. Don't kwyyy Bwyyahn.

Feel better?

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#367693 - 10/30/07 11:08 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: Joss]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Ok, you oficially hurt my feelings.

Sorry Joss, I'm having an argumentative day. I didn't mean it personal.

I guess it is just semantics.

Stupid semantics, stupid internet!!!
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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