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#367674 - 10/30/07 12:15 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: butterfly]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
I have a little difficulty with the statement because I do not feel many schools today actually teach a "one strike, one kill" philosopy or mindset. From my experience, it has been taught, "this is how you control the situation, eliminate the threat, and get to safety". The use of controlled techniques to de-escalate a situation to the point where you can retreat or escape harm through control of the opponent.

How can you be sure that any one technique or series of techniques will stop an opponent? There is no guarantee. And Victor, I truly respect your opinion and admire the extent of your knowledge having experienced it first hand but to me, a fight has begun when you have acknowledged that a confrontation is inevitable and you are, even if only in your mind, positioning yourself to deal with the confrontation. The confrontation should be swift and decisive but I would still have to call it a fight even if only one blow is struck.

Just my opinion.

Scottie
_________________________
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

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#367675 - 10/30/07 12:17 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: butterfly]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
As a noob, I tend to pay heed to sensei and sempai.

But my gut inclination is to understand 'karate' as 'not-fighting'. Not the 'one-punch, one-kill' that is touted, but definitely to see it as a 'stop action' kind of activity. 'Follow-ups' and 'set-ups' are beyond my understanding.

Quote:

but in the heat of battle things sometimes do not go as planned. Also, let's say your instructor has a clone (or just picture two really competent MAists) with whom he is going at it. Could both be cognizant of the setups necessary to bring about the neck break/choke/kick/punch..etc. and be able to stymie or counter it?

That is also why I do not think karate (or any MA that is competently trained) is supposed to be entirely focused or use against untrained individuals. A karate-ka should be able to at least have some skill against the trained opponent/attacker and this will block a lot of what one thought would be more easily applicable.



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#367676 - 10/30/07 12:24 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: hedkikr]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hedkikr,

Have I broken necks, arms or legs, no. Though long ago once holding some boards a fellow student broke my finger.

But for many years I've had a surgeon as part of my studnet group and he has gone into detail what occurs when such and such takes place. Of course whether the technique will fracture the atlas where it goes through the axis (I appologize if I'm mistating the anatomy - not my forte), or you end up with a really bad neck wrench is also possible.

But where I suggest one technique that both sets up the final response, I am not suggesting correct karate does not ignore variables and have back up alternatives.

Human structures are both stronger and weaker than we suppose, but in the technique I'm suggesting It does offer that alternative.

As for other breaks or dislocations, while we may use layman's shorthand for what might occur, that hardly precludes a good technique execution will probably cause a major owie (a technical term I do understand) and give purchase for other potential answers.

Of course you might always suggest that Ed show up some day and see if I know what I'm talking about, providing he has insurance. Doc always says he can fix anything, providing you insurance is good (just a joke of course).
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#367677 - 10/30/07 12:29 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: harlan]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Harlan,

It is good to ask and consider and of course accept what your instructor is saying. And believe me, you are doing well with this consideration. You are supposed to think about stopping an altercation, as Scottie just posted, as soon and as quickly as possible and with every means justifiable to the situation.

However, my concern is that all of us have plans of actions and sometimes these do not roll evenly and smoothly outward as expected. Just as emergency personnel have two or three back-up plans to consider in case the first doesn't work, well plan B and plan C...and plan D are options that have to be predicated on the fact that plan A is now in the toilet.

The idea, I think, is not to consider an attack or a fight something easily and quickly disposed of (hopefully so), but from which may need your attention to extricate yourself safely. And instead of blocks and setups, perhaps it is easier to consider it as what-if branches on a chart for plans of actions to quickly end or extricate yourself.

In that instance an understanding of "fighting" is necessary, I think.

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#367678 - 10/30/07 12:30 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: RazorFoot]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Scottie,

I wasn't implying one punch kill philosophy. For that fact I don't know anyone who kills with their technique. Perhaps that potential exists in some instances but it's not one I pursue.

I see the utilization of the art (not bunkai but a larger answer) should be to conclude violence if things go in that direction. I don't advocate someone is nasty so 'break or dislocate their neck'. But I don't advocate working to fight someone either because I think that's the wrong focus.

Whether an outside observer sees something and then says that's a fight is not the issue, IMO. Instead it's how you're training to approach situations where violence must be ended.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#367679 - 10/30/07 12:41 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: butterfly]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
I suppose 'planning' is a skill that advanced 'fighters' attain. I train only in the moment. My thinking is that a move is whatever it needs to be.

Quote:

However, my concern is that all of us have plans of actions and sometimes these do not roll evenly and smoothly outward as expected. Just as emergency personnel have two or three back-up plans to consider in case the first doesn't work, well plan B and plan C...and plan D are options that have to be predicated on the fact that plan A is now in the toilet.




On reflection, I guess my noob understanding of karate is off. I don't think of it as 'fighting'. More like 'entering'.


Edited by harlan (10/30/07 12:52 PM)

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#367680 - 10/30/07 12:42 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: Victor Smith]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Whether you engaged an enemy for two seconds or two minutes you were still fighting.
If you defend yourself, you do so by fighting.
If you put an end to whatever viloence that is occuring, you do so by fighting.
When you use karate, you are fighting.
Karate is fighting.

Am I a fighter? No. I am a karateka who can fight,if I have to.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#367681 - 10/30/07 12:52 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: Victor Smith]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
ANd Victor, I understand and have practiced and taught in that same manner myself. I am in the school of thought that Brad is in.

Brad Wrote:
Quote:

However, my concern is that all of us have plans of actions and sometimes these do not roll evenly and smoothly outward as expected. Just as emergency personnel have two or three back-up plans to consider in case the first doesn't work, well plan B and plan C...and plan D are options that have to be predicated on the fact that plan A is now in the toilet.




I understand the thought process that "karate is to end a conflict". I was simply saying that in my mind, if there is a conflict to end, there is a fight. Maybe I am not understanding a deeper meaning here but if there is an altercation, and a gun is used to end it, that is a fight that ended with a gunshot, but it was still a fight. Or am I over simplifying things?
_________________________
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

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#367682 - 10/30/07 12:54 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: RazorFoot]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Perhaps the semantical difference between 'fight' and 'fighting'? Can one resolve a fight without fighting?

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#367683 - 10/30/07 12:54 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: harlan]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Harlan, you are essentially not wrong. The construction of technique at any particular moment means that you should be able to mold to the moment and change it depending upon the circumstances prevalent. This is the ideal, of course...and situations often vary.

This also means that if you threw a punch and it was blocked or didn't connect as well as you thought, are you in a position to readily and easily use technique 2 and 3 dependent upon how the opponent moves and attacks?

The idea is to smoothly transition to what needs to be done and not just count on finality at any given moment. That's also why there is a structure to technique that allows access to other techniques when properly administered. They are not just one point on a line disconnected from the next point onward. This is an organic process to fitting what you can do in response to your opponent...and this is also the reason why body mechanics behind techniques really need to be considered at a basic level.

On another note, per the semantics, I guess I probably have agree more with Brian. Fighting is fighting when there is an attacker and a defender, regardless of the situation or the intent.

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