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#367664 - 10/30/07 10:13 AM Karate IS (not for fighting?)
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Victor Smith

Quote:

Then again karate isn't for fighting, ever. I accept if you're fighting you're in the wrong frame of mind.





Unyu

Quote:

You mean your karate is not for fighting. Sorry, but Kanryo Higashionna, Sokon Matsumura, Hohan Soken, Choshin Chibana, Chotoku Kyan, Choki Motobu, Chojun Miyagi, Kanei Uechi, Tatsuo Shimabuku, Gogen Yamaguchi, Mas Oyama, ad nauseum, would totally disagree with you. Self preservation includes fighting in this instance.

Karate is more than fighting, but Budo that is not about the art of war, is not true and original intent. It's schoolboy karate.

That is what you do right? Day care karate? Whatever super sensei. That might have been the most arse showing comment I've ever seen on a forum. Let me "troll" on outta here now...






Ed Morris

Quote:

I think you read too little in the comment. The distinction I would make is defending ego vs defending your life.

you 'take it outside' and get into a fight, one on one, over an argument that started about who took who's barstool... to me, 'fight' implies 'battle of egos'. maybe thats how Victor meant it, numbnuts.






Butterflypalm

Quote:

I think Victor does have some explaining to do; Unyu may have over-reacted, but then that was too short and too categorical a statement not to have elicited such a response. Especially with that "ever" at the end.






Victor Smith

Quote:

Bryan,

No, karate is not for fighting, if it is used there should be no fight just completion.

The fighting mindset is you do this and I'll do that until I win. Unfortunately sparring has made many think this is how karate should be used.

Consider Hohen Soken's comments that Kusanku used to be practiced with the top knot pins (daggers) in each hand.

Training the body to take a shot to fight is nonsense when they may be trying to stick something small into you, and that is always the proper perspective if you need to use the art. End it not fight.

I consider anyone who trains to fight missing the entire point, and there are just as many classical quotes about not fighting from the seniors too. Wonder why?

Karate is for immediately ending, from my perspective.

Of course perhaps your karate is for fighting, if so cool, to each their own.






Butterflypalm

Quote:

Oh, I see. Karate is for 'ending the fight' and not 'fighting the fight'?

I am not double-quessing Unyu, but then he may say that while you are 'ending' the fight, some 'fighting' has to be done first?

Perhaps you are thinking about a variation of the 'one-punch-one-kill' to 'first-punch-first-kill'?




Victor Smith

Quote:


I believe it is much more than a case for semantics about what is happening.

Let me give you an example, one of Isshiryu's kata techniques looks like one technique (which I suspect few really nail each other with) but from a different direction of entry it is a neck breaking technique and is nothing but 100% use of the technique from kata.

I try really hard to work on everything we have and just use of that one application, IMO, is not fighting, its ending the situation, which btw is also the complete way to enter an attack by using the technique.

Of course I'm not looking to break necks, but if the situation is appropriate the technique is not fighting in my book, its ending the situation.

I see fighting as a mindset how to use karate's technique, see value in it, but also see much more.

In that light I take all the elder seniors admonisnments that karate isn't to be used for fighting as a serious contention.





Shall we continue?
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#367665 - 10/30/07 10:22 AM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: BrianS]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Bossman says it's not for fighting as well:

http://www.woma.tv/woma/videos/show/20/in/channel/159
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#367666 - 10/30/07 11:25 AM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: Gavin]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
I think its largely a question of semantics.

Fun to talk about though!!!!!!!

I look foreward to reading the opinions/comments.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#367667 - 10/30/07 11:48 AM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: BrianS]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
BTW...(& this has always puzzeled me), how does one know that a certain technique designated as a "neck-break" will really break a neck? Who do you practice on?

The same goes for other "claims" (arm-break, shatter the knee, stop the heart, etc.) that seem reasonable but are untried, I'm certain. But it sounds really cool to students...ooooh!

There are so many variables involved w/ breaks, I doubt that it can be replicated just by practicing kata (& I'm a kata practitioner).

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#367668 - 10/30/07 11:52 AM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: hedkikr]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I asked my teacher this. He said that the 'neck break' is only part of the body dynamics going on. I know it only took the slightest amount of pressure, while doing bunkai, to tear my shoulder, so I'll take his word on the neck breaks.

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#367669 - 10/30/07 11:57 AM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: cxt]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Yep,I read the whole other thread--and there were interesting posts woven into it. For that much, of late, I am grateful.

I am ambivalent since I see both sides and do agree with Chris about the idea of semantics clouding the issue. IMO, there are three considerations here: 1) the definition of fighting; 2) the utility of sparring (not necessarily sport-centric); and 3) if the "ender" that Victor has listed somehow doesn't quite work as planned.

Well if your coup de grace isn't as emphatic as expected due to whatever reason, is it then a fight? However we quickly wish to end an altercation, this sometimes may not happen according to our wants and then what recourse is there? And are the benefits of sparring then administered in that particular setting (if you don't want to call it a fight)?

P.S. As a quick edited comment, damn...Hedkikr beat me to that thought and stated it more succinctly.


Edited by butterfly (10/30/07 11:59 AM)

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#367670 - 10/30/07 12:00 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: harlan]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
And I had a climbing accident that didn't break my neck (although it felt like it). Ligaments & muscle tears have a different dynamic.

Again, blind faith or credible reports (maybe from someone in Special Forces who actually did it in wartime)?

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#367671 - 10/30/07 12:01 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: hedkikr]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
In the days of hanging a criminal, death came when the neck was broken due to the sudden jerking force of the rope when the criminal fell through the trap-door.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#367672 - 10/30/07 12:05 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: hedkikr]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
1. Last year an old tourist, ex-military, broke the neck of a would-be assailant in S. America. It's here somewhere.

2. Kata is not bunkai. Kata might be about faith, but bunkai tests it.

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#367673 - 10/30/07 12:11 PM Re: Karate IS (not for fighting?) [Re: harlan]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Harlan,

BTW, I am not doubting the abilities of your instructor, but in the heat of battle things sometimes do not go as planned. Also, let's say your instructor has a clone (or just picture two really competent MAists) with whom he is going at it. Could both be cognizant of the setups necessary to bring about the neck break/choke/kick/punch..etc. and be able to stymie or counter it?

That is also why I do not think karate (or any MA that is competently trained) is supposed to be entirely focused or use against untrained individuals. A karate-ka should be able to at least have some skill against the trained opponent/attacker and this will block a lot of what one thought would be more easily applicable.

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