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#367451 - 10/28/07 05:01 PM ki, chi, qi energy pull
Anonymous
Unregistered


hi guys,

I just wondered if anyone could tell me how to perform an energy pull?

thankyou

mkd

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#367452 - 10/28/07 05:28 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Dude......read the forum before you ask questions like that.
_________________________
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#367453 - 10/29/07 07:55 AM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: MattJ]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
God damn, I'm just not witty enough to answer questions like this. Kempoman....calling Kempoman!
_________________________
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www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#367454 - 10/29/07 01:05 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Gavin]
Anonymous
Unregistered



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#367455 - 10/29/07 01:41 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC45kYb9Sjg




Utter and complete garbage. Impossible to do on any resisting opponent.

Read this:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15959940
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#367456 - 10/29/07 02:32 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: MattJ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


can you tell me how its performed?

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#367457 - 10/29/07 03:33 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Fair enough. I didn't answer your question directly, so I admire your patience.

I don't know because I don't think it's real.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#367458 - 10/29/07 06:34 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
You need a complicit assistant to pull off the illusion...

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#367459 - 10/29/07 11:04 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

I just wondered if anyone could tell me how to perform an energy pull?




a no touch one? most likely with sound cues - subtle cues like the performer's change in breathing for instance could trigger the actor's timing to lean back so it coordinates with the performers gesture.

The only way to really test of course, is if a stranger for a volunteer is used, then blindfolded and earplugged. but nobody has ever passed that kind of test with ANY no touch claim of powers.

besides...what possible application could this have? annoying someone in front of you standing in a bank line?


an actual 'energy pull' would be redirecting an attacker's momentum in a way that they lose balance - if even only for a split second advantage. Timing could be refined to the point of not even having to touch them, or just lightly, to have this effect.
so, it's not so much an actual pull as it is just capitalizing on using their own momentum against them. the effect may look like they were 'pulled' a bit.

demonstrations of this (such as in aikido for instance) tend to exagurate the effect by the attacker overcommiting. This is to accent the gap between buffoon kamikaze attacker vs. not breaking a sweat holier than thou demonstrator.

even though the effect is widely exagurated and hyped in demo's or dojos going for the 'looks cool' factor - using an attacker's momentum against them (which sorta looks like a pull from the observer pov) even just slightly is very real and is a trained skill.


...which is another reason why I think people could passively learn 1000x more about 'chi energy' by taking a physics 101 class vs watching newage mystical 'chi energy' miracle demonstrations a'la illusions and trickery.

...but being entertained, believing in magic and dreaming of fantasy powers is much more fun and less work than learning physics. hence we still see discussions on forums about harnessing chi-balls.

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#367460 - 10/30/07 06:38 AM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

besides...what possible application could this have? annoying someone in front of you standing in a bank line?


Now there's an idea... must try that one next time. <evil grin>

Quote:

an actual 'energy pull' would be redirecting an attacker's momentum in a way that they lose balance - if even only for a split second advantage. Timing could be refined to the point of not even having to touch them, or just lightly, to have this effect.
so, it's not so much an actual pull as it is just capitalizing on using their own momentum against them. the effect may look like they were 'pulled' a bit.


Nah, using the other guy's momentum is too easy. Pulling it off when the other guy is static or resisting is much more interesting, but it can be done too. Momentum is not a pre-requisite. It's just skill.

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#367461 - 04/29/09 04:23 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: eyrie]
SifuHax Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 84
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
I don't think it's real. I wish it was real. But I don't think it is real.
_________________________
I am no sifu.

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#367462 - 04/30/09 11:21 AM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi,

ever been to a full blown Evangelistic Faith healing?

same thing as Fox Mulder had on his office poster
"I want to believe" and their healed till trying to get their wallet back, NOW a Chi Wallet Pull has great monetary value and only requires a cohort for misdirection

Naw, come on, dude probably smoked too much weed and decided to call himself sensi-Bud, poor sucker trains technique and absolutely believes in ol sensi-bud, so they practice this by starting out having sensi-bud pullin sucker back as he rocks to heels (notice the rhythmical center mass rocking of that?) until sucker just starts to fall out ABSOLUTE FAITH, sensi-bud probably did time the initial pulling physically watching the rocking and motor conditioned sucker sempai to a trigger like blowing air on his neck (not to say sensei-buds AC/DC, not theres anything wrong with that).

To believe that you might I assume be youngish and a better question at this time in life (Be ye male or female) is to ask if improper use of Tantric Sex techniques w/o partners consent can actually be used to siphon off Birth Qi to add to your own well of Qi...hopefully that made no sense at all to you, if it did and you have some how become accomplished....stop. BAD MOJO.

-Karl. Peace.
_________________________
do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

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#367463 - 05/01/09 02:11 AM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: SifuHax]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
This isn't hard to figure out. The student knows ahead of time that the teacher is going to try and 'pull' him using 'energy'. The student stands there for awhile, and due to X amount of years of programming, convinces himself that he is 'feeling the pull'. Then he is pulled.

If the teacher tried is with a stranger off the street, and didn't tell the person ahead of time what he was trying to do then the results would be very different.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#367464 - 05/05/09 12:02 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Tap your heels together three times and whisper, over and over, "There's no place like home. There's no place like home..."

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#420460 - 06/28/09 10:59 AM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: eyrie]
Dave5504 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 10
An energy pull is pretty straightforward – no mystical stuff, just using your own energy field to interact with someone elses. This is a common training tool in energy work and energetic healing.

If you are new to the concept of bio-energy you should start by just getting a feel for it. Stand comfortably in a relaxed posture with your hands in front of you, palms facing each other. Your body is relaxed. Visualize a current of energy running in a circuit through your upper body and arms from one palm into the other. Men circulate energy from right to left, women from left to right. Experiment with bringing your hands closer together and then farther apart as if you are holding something compressible, like a balloon. You may feel heat, tingling or slight pressure on the palms. This is your bio-energy field. Again, there’s nothing mysterious here. Any time there is energy, there is a corresponding field. Just like electricity through a wire – this is just physics.

To do the energy pull you need a willing partner. This is a learning tool – it will not work if your partner resists (this was noted in one of the earlier responses). Your partner needs to be neutral – standing like a reed in the wind. This is a very gentle [censord] out of the mud with this.

Stand behind you partner so they do not see your movements. Step [censord] into your opposite palm. Your energy is looping around you partner like a rope. When you [censord], as if to stretch the energy rope around your partner. Do not use any sudden or quick movements. You partner should move back a bit. This takes some sensitivity and practice, but most anyone can do this.

This can work as a pull or a push, just depends on what your intent is and how you form your own energy to interact with your partner.

Just to reiterate. This is just physics – nothing mystical. Lots of research available on energy and healing – look into James Oschman’s books on current research into energy medicine if you want some references.

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#420461 - 06/28/09 11:26 AM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Dave5504]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
If that isn't mystical, what exactly do you call mystical??

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#420467 - 06/28/09 04:05 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: JKogas]
Dave5504 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 10
As I noted, I call it physics. There were several posts that seemed to put this into the category of a hoax or something wierd. The principle used is no different than what you might encounter in a discussion of electrical and magnetic fields in an engineering or physics class.

Why is this not mystical? - A mystic is someone who can communicate directly with God. Clearly that's not going on in the method I outlined - i.e, this isn't mystical, it is just an application of the principles of physics.

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#420475 - 06/29/09 02:22 AM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Dave5504]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
It's funny that the only people whom seem to ever be effected by this sort of 'physics' are loyal students? (note - I am aware that many average Joe's off of the street have been effected as well - but these always seem to be the ones who were 'open' to it!) I have had a few people try to demonstrate how they can use 'physics' on me and not one person has succeeded... perhaps I'm immune to it? I'm curious as to which branch of physics you feel this fits under? Thus far I've not seen anything other than psychology at play and that has been from both my studies of the martial and healing arts...
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#420480 - 06/29/09 03:34 AM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Gavin]
DeadlyKnuckles Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/08
Posts: 130
Loc: United States, Florida
Energy:

1. is not a thing.
2. does not exist in a pure state (ie: no "energy fields").
3. exists in various forms (light, heat, sound, etcetera).
4. is defined as the capacity to do work.*

* Work is defined as the transfer of energy.

Originally Posted By: Dave5504
Experiment with bringing your hands closer together and then farther apart as if you are holding something compressible, like a balloon. You may feel heat, tingling or slight pressure on the palms. This is your bio-energy field.

No, it's not.

The sensation of warmth/heat you're experiencing is the result of the transfer of heat from your palms to the molecules in the space between them.

The tingling or pressure sensations could be the result of a number of things. It could be the result of holding your hands in the same position for a prolonged period of time, poor blood circulation, your imagination, wishful thinking, etcetera.

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#420486 - 06/29/09 11:13 AM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: DeadlyKnuckles]
Dave5504 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 10
The amount of resistance to this surprises me.

There are hundreds if not thousands of studies done on the various energies of the human body. I noted James Oschman’s work in my first post. I would suggest that you look at his two books Energy Medicine, The Scientific Basis and Energy Medicine in Therapeutics and Human Performance. Here’s a link to his bio, you can decide for yourself if he is a credible researcher http://www.energyresearch.bizland.com/id7.html . You can find similar and related works from Paul Pearsall and Lynn McTaggart – all are available on Amazon. These three references barely scratch the surface of the information that is available.

The short story is that the human body emits electricity, magnetism, heat, light and sound. With the advent of super conductors and the SQUID measuring devices in the 1970s much more minute energies could be measured. These have all been measured in multiple studies. There is no doubt that we are energetic beings.

Even methods as old as Kirlian photography which started in the late 1930s have been used to photograph the energy fields around living things. Some on this forum may have had diagnostic tests such as an EEG or EKG that measure some of the larger electrical energies of the brain and heart. I do not see how you can be aware of modern medical advances and not acknowledge that various energies and energetic fields are a part of the human body.

RE “It's funny that the only people whom seem to ever be effected by this sort of 'physics' are loyal students? (note - I am aware that many average Joe's off of the street have been effected as well - but these always seem to be the ones who were 'open' to it!)”.
You take both sides here, first implying that they work because of the student-instructor relationship and then saying that sometimes they work on any average person. Then you further state that you have some insight into the openness of people you do not know. This is not a valid argument.

You do not say what technique someone tried on you that would not work, so I cannot offer any [censord] other than to restate again that the energy pull requires a willing partner. This means that the partner must be neutral. If you dig into the ground and lock yourself into a stance, then the technique will not work. The connection between the puller and the pullee feels like a very, very weak magnetic connection.

Again, this is a demonstration that allows people to become familiar with the feeling of their energy field. I use this in Qigong, Meditation and Reiki classes to simply make people aware of what is there. That’s it. The energy pull can be a door to further understand, but please do not make this into something it is not intended to be.

RE the question about “which branch of physics” and the definition of energy. Not quite sure I understood the point of the questions , but here’s the Wikipedia take on an “electrical field” –
“In physics, the space surrounding an electric charge or in the presence of a time-varying magnetic field has a property called an electric field. This electric field exerts a force on other electrically charged objects. The concept of an electric field was introduced by Michael Faraday.”

RE the point about what is felt in the hands. Your point about blood flow and heat in the hands is valid. Those are things that can certainly be felt. However, when my hands are one to two feet apart or when I am several feet from a training partner, the sensations are not from blood flow or heat. I can feel a physical connection to the partner as well. I use the connection to give them a slight pull or push - the connection at a distance and the ability to pull and push are separate issues from the heat and blood flow in the hands. Do they move backward or forward because of my wishful thinking? You are actually on a valid point - intent. Intent is important in any of the energetic healing or hurting disciplines.

I see where one of the moderators is a Reiki practitioner - perhaps they might comment on the feel of Qi or intent.

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#420491 - 06/29/09 01:50 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Dave5504]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
So you are saying that the energy pull works by the human body developing enough magnetic force to 'pull' the receiver? Surely then this magnetism will effect inanimate objects too... to my knowledge no-one has ever produced telekinetic abilities under verified conditions and I'm unaware of anyone producing anything other than very low level electrical naturally - I'd be interested in any studies claiming this.
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www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#420498 - 06/29/09 06:32 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Gavin]
Dave5504 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 10
No. You are misunderstanding what I wrote. I said that "it feels like a very, very weak magnetic connection". I am trying to describe what it feels like for you - I am not saying that it turns you into a human magnet, just trying to describe the effect. If I were to hold a weak magnet up in front of my metal refrigerator door, I would feel a similar pull.

I have no way of knowing what causes the effect. I do know that multiple energies have been measured coming from the hands of healers and martial artists. Experiments have also shown that the energies from a healer's hands have an effect on the person they are directed toward. I also know that this works for me and for people I have just met in classes and demonstrations. I know what I do when I do an energy pull and I know that I have no intent to deceive or defraud.

Regarding voltages, there have been several experiments that measured the voltages coming off of the hands of healers and I think some of them are pretty significant. One that comes to mind is the "Copper Wall Experiment" conducted by Elmer Green, Ph.D. - the online info states that they recorded voltages as high as 200v. Just do a search on “Copper Wall Experiment”. There are several other studies related to emissions from healers in the books I mentioned earlier.

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#420501 - 06/29/09 09:46 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Dave5504]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Dave5504 --

Have you ever heard of the "Amazing Randi" or his million dollar challenge? You may want to look into this.


http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html


-John

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#420504 - 06/29/09 10:24 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: JKogas]
Dave5504 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 10
Yeah right...somehow I don't think the Amazing Randi is going to pay 1 mil for something this simple.

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#420511 - 06/30/09 02:14 AM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Dave5504]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Dave5504
I am trying to describe what it feels like for you - I am not saying that it turns you into a human magnet, just trying to describe the effect. If I were to hold a weak magnet up in front of my metal refrigerator door, I would feel a similar pull.

I have no way of knowing what causes the effect.


Now this is a little more honest. My issue with what you were saying was that it is physics - its not, at least not in the currently understood realms. The non-touch thing has always interested me but I have not yet see anyone 'pulled' who has not been in a situation where they have been mentally prepped for the 'experiment' before hand.

As for martial artists this, even if it is true, has absolutely no use whatsoever because it only works on 'open' people. Using my 'intent' I have thus resisted any of these ki/qi/chi tricks.

Within a healing environment there is some very interesting work being done within the realms of myofascial release looking at possible minute intercelluar communications - for example the piezoelectric charge emitted from the collagen in connective tissue when it is stimulated by heat, pressure or electrical stimulus - this minute electrical charge causes a breakdown of the molecular bond between the cells loosening the tissue. In the cranial field there have been some interesting theories on the communication between therapist and receiver but for the most part they [censord] of physics is very plausible within our current scientific understanding.

Pulling someone across a room without touching them is something confined to the realms of fantasy and tricksters IMO and is of no practical use to the martial artist, even as an 'intent' training exercise.
_________________________
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www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#420530 - 06/30/09 01:15 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Dave5504]
DeadlyKnuckles Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/08
Posts: 130
Loc: United States, Florida
Originally Posted By: Dave5504
Yeah right...somehow I don't think the Amazing Randi is going to pay 1 mil for something this simple.

You'd be surprised:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CASghTzNhc

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#420531 - 06/30/09 02:01 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: DeadlyKnuckles]
Dave5504 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 10
Gavin -
Your reply indicates that you find my previous postings are dishonest. So far I have accurately described the process used and have offered numerous references to answer your questions. How is that dishonest?

You say you have an interest in the “non-touch thing” and also use the words “even if it is true”. You seem to have a curiosity about such things. Given your curiosity, you should ask yourself how you will recognize someone who is delivering a genuine message if you begin the discussion by characterizing them as “dishonest”, “tricksters” and categorize their statements as in the “realms of fantasy” and “tricks”.

Were the references I gave invalid? Of course not, you have not had time to read Oschman’s works, or McTaggarts. If you had then you would have defied the laws of physics wouldn’t you? Rather than investigate, you have chosen to attack my character. Such tactics have no place in a reasonable discussion.

When I happened upon the initial question that sparked this thread, all I observed was several derisive comments with few attempts to answer a legitimate question. As long as you are involved in internal martial arts these questions will continue to arise. It seems to me that the closed minded response this is receiving does nothing to advance anyone’s knowledge of how to answer the original question.

Since I am able to do this technique and have never had difficulty in teaching others to do it, I choose to try to find a rational explanation. I cannot speak to your personal level of experience. I can tell you that this works for me without any pre-preparation. I simply ask people to stand “like a reed in the wind” and then either pull or push them. I do not tell them what is going to happen or what to expect. I have done this at demos with people I have never met. As long as they offer no resistance it works. It works more dramatically on some people than others. It does not work on inanimate objects.

Since I have no access to sensitive measuring devices I have no way to confirm how this works. It seems to me that a very logical explanation is a simple interaction of electro-magnetic fields. This then follows the rule of attraction and repulsion – from physics. If you are not familiar with this then simply Google “strong to weak rule of attraction repulsion” and you will find several references. Again, I have no way to measure and confirm this, but it is a logical explanation and despite your denials – it is physics.

I had hoped that others on the forum might have an interest in actually discussing the possibilities of how such techniques work.

Your assertion that this technique “has no use whatsoever” is totally wrong. The martial arts are entirely about energy and balance. Every exchange in combat or self-defense is about the balance of energy between two opponents. The largest most encompassing theories of energy and balance come from quantum physics. While it is often true that most of us begin our martial arts studies in the realm of Newtonian physics, that does not mean we should limit ourselves to that arena. Any technique that enhances your knowledge of how energy can be use to interact with an opponent is of value to the martial artist.

Your reference to the piezoelectric properties of connective tissue is right on. Why can you not continue the discussion in that vein? These properties are what led Oschman to coin the phrase “The Living Matrix”. This is the thread that should be followed, because it presents the body as an energetic unit. This will lead to an understanding of how a martial artist might take advantage of the energetic properties of the human body.

If anyone wants to ask a legitimate question or participate in an honest discussion, I’d be glad to answer.

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#420532 - 06/30/09 02:03 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Dave5504]
Dave5504 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 10
DeadlyKnuckles -
Since this can be explained by the interaction of electromagnetic fields, it does not qualify for the Amazing Randi challenge. As I noted - this is a simple thing to do.

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#420544 - 07/01/09 04:25 AM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Dave5504]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Dave5504
DeadlyKnuckles -
Since this can be explained by the interaction of electromagnetic fields, it does not qualify for the Amazing Randi challenge. As I noted - this is a simple thing to do.


Dave when I referred to dishonest this wasn't a character assassination merely an objective observation on how you are explaining things and in this above quote you've gone back to explaining things with the 'electromagnetic fields' again after admitting perviously that you didn't know what this energy is. Saying it 'feels' like a magnetic pull is an honest description of the sensation, saying it is explainable by electromagnetic fields is misleading (what I meant by being dishonest). If it were explainable by electromagnetic fields then you should be able to demonstrate this on inanimate objects... if you could then Randi (although I find the guy rather disagreeable) would instantly feather your hand with gold.

I had a quick look at that guys website you link to previously and I'm afraid that I can't see anything that backs up your ability to remotely pull people. Yes the body and universe itself have many subtle energies that make up the whole and the field of biodynamics is making huge leaps in documenting holistic bodily communications through the fluids and tissues of the body, but again this doesn't validate your claim in any sense. My example of the piezoelectric properties of collagen is a prime example - I use many myofascial release techniques with my clients but to achieve a release within the tissue via this mechanism requires an appropriately applied sustained pressure spanning anything from a couple of seconds up to minutes - well outside of the nanosecond windows of opportunity open to the martial artist in combat.

Going back to you being able to demonstrate this ability by only having to suggest 'feel like a reed' to be able to get them to 'pull' them... the mental imagery of the reed blowing in the wind is already an autosuggestion. Also usually very unintentionally those demonstrating this ability unkonwingly create an environment whereby those being pulled know that they are expected to do something. Here is a classic example by the UK based illusionist Derren Brown who does a 'chi' demo far more impressively than any chi master I've witnessed by martial artists or 'healers':

http://formosaneijia.com/2009/derren-browns-mind-punch/

This is a trick. I have many fun little tricks that I often slip into demonstrations for a bit of fun but I always tell the audience how to do them. For example yesterday I done the demonstration used by many top masters including the late Cheng Man-ching whereby they resist full power pushes with one arm... I had ladies in their 70's doing it within about 30 seconds. On monday I had a class of 11 year old girls doing it as well.

In my mind all this no-touch stuff demonstrates within the martial arts is how the mind can be played with on a very subtle level to produce very powerful results if you allow yourself to be played. Unfortunately people end up buying all this stuff and the following happens when they challenge reality:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

Non-touch stuff is not a demonstration of internal skill. The only way to really know if someone has real skill is to cross hands with them.


Edited by Gavin (07/01/09 04:51 AM)
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#420559 - 07/01/09 07:44 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Dave5504]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Wow... 2 years on and we're STILL discussing this? Why?

Originally Posted By: Dave5504
I said that "it feels like a very, very weak magnetic connection".
Well... therein lies your conundrum.... How can a very, very weak magnetic connection have any sort of martial use or application? Unless your opponent (or complicit student) is equally highly "sensitized" to such phenomena, I can't see how any of this would be practically useful martially or otherwise.

Personally, I think you're barking up the wrong tree... and draw your attention to The Feats of the Magnetic Girl Explained.

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#420592 - 07/03/09 07:49 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: eyrie]
Dave5504 Offline
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Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 10
Gavin –
I offered my thoughts on field interaction because, based on my research, it seems the most likely explanation for the effect. An interaction of fields also describes the physical sensation from the point of the puller. As I have stated, I do not know what is happening. I have no way to measure this interaction. If this is actually electromagnetism or some other field interaction, I cannot say. I can only draw inferences based on my research and experience. Fields do interact and affect each other, and electromagnetism is one example. If you will read the research references I have provided, you will find that there are similar research experiments that have covered the energetic exchange between two people. Given the similarity to the published research, it seems like a good working hypothesis.

I guess the guy you are referring to is Dr. Oschman? I noted when I provided that link, that I offered the link so you could see that he was a credible researcher. The web site does not include his book content. In the same post I also provided two of his book titles that contain the research summaries. You have to read the books to get to the research. Just a note - these are serious research summaries, mostly in the area of quantum physics and they are a bit pricey. You may be able to find them if you are near a large university library or if not, then inter-library loan usually works. Some of the other sources I noted are more readily available, but Oschman’s books are a good place to start.

When I am teaching or doing a demo I use the phrase “stand like a reed in the wind”. Since the pull does not work if the person actively resists, there is no other way to approach this when in a class or demo setting. This does not predispose the person to going in either direction because I do not tell them whether I am going to pull or push. If you will read my post, you will see that I do both. You will also see that I have no other communication with them and that I stand behind them so they cannot see what I am doing. I have also told you that there is no trick. I just do what I described (note that I described only the pull). I am not an illusionist or magician – pretty cool stuff, but I am not trained in that area. Likewise I don’t know how to hypnotize anyone. You keep returning to the theme that there is some “trick” I am pulling and not telling you about. There isn’t. Once I have shown this to people, it tends to spread around a bit. People have done this to complete strangers in airport lines and while singing hymns in church. No “stand like a reed in the wind” there – although they do get some interesting responses. I would encourage you not to fix on the ‘trick” explanation, but to actually go to the resources I have mentioned. It will take some time, but why not read them?. They will fill out the knowledge you are already obviously building about subtle energies.

Gavin & Eyrie -
This post started out as a question about how to do an energy pull – there was no implication that this method, as it is presented, is a viable combat technique – not by me or by the original poster. If you wish to introduce a different topic, I would suggest that starting a new post would be cleaner.

What I did say, is that knowledge of the human energy system is valuable to the internal martial artist. As Gavin points out “the body and universe itself have many subtle energies that make up the whole and the field of biodynamics is making huge leaps in documenting holistic bodily communications through the fluids and tissues of the body”. As an internal martial artist (I assume you are, since this is the Internal Arts Forum), doesn’t it benefit you to understand the “subtle energies” that Gavin refers to? Isn’t the knowledge and use of these energies at least part of what differentiates the Internal from the External martial artist?

I have noticed that there is a generalization of the energy pull as “no-touch stuff” - as if all energy techniques can be placed in a single basket. This is not the case. Whether we are healing or hurting, there are many different avenues of using energy. To lump them all together makes it even more difficult to sort out how one method or the other might work.

Eyrie – You said “I can't see how any of this would be practically useful martially or otherwise.”
The relationship of energetic fields is at the core of Traditional Chinese Medicine. A simple example would be Five-element theory. As an Internal Martial Artist do you not use the knowledge of the healing arts in your practice?

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#420594 - 07/03/09 08:44 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Dave5504]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
David you have used a lot of words to say almost nothing at all. You do not have to be an illusionist to employ the techniques that I have suggested - many employ the subtle 'unseen' communication and suggestion that are used in shows without knowing. My own research into the subject has shown that is nothing more than the manipulation of the mind. My path of reasoning logically tells me to research everything regarding a subject rather than just the evidence that backs my opinion up. If there are people who are able to produce the same result I can, but better I would want to know how they are doing it. People like Derren Brown are producing better and more consistent results then any Chi person. I would feel obligated to understand their methods before I started to teach this stuff.

As someone who spent the best of 4 years becoming qualified within the field of Shiatsu 5 element theory and TCM were heavily featured in my course. I do not use an ounce of tcm in my treatments nowadays OR in my tai chi. I have yet to meet anyone whom can explain something using TCM that is of practical use within the martial arts that I can not explain without using any mention of 5 element theory. Having trained with someone of the so called leading experts in applied 5 element theory I've yet to see anything that convinces of its need to be used as a model of observation within the arts - nothing.

As I said you can only judge someones internal skill by crossing hands with them and when you do you very quickly see the results. I have nothing more to say on the subject.
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#420601 - 07/04/09 07:20 AM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Dave5504]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Originally Posted By: Dave5504
This post started out as a question about how to do an energy pull...
To which I have already responded nearly 2 years to the date, that you need a complicit assistant (See post ##367458). And to which you yourself agreed in post #420460, in your belated response to me, 2 years later, that (emphasis mine):
Quote:
To do the energy pull you need a willing partner. This is a learning tool – it will not work if your partner resists (this was noted in one of the earlier responses). Your partner needs to be neutral...


And to which JKogas replied, and I concur with his assessment, if you need a complicit partner to "do" this, then how can it have any practical (i.e. martial OR otherwise) purpose, other than mystical BS? And learning to do what precisely?

So, I think it's fair to say that the thread has now evolved to a different level of discussion, don't you?

Whilst the theoretical approach of TCM is useful in understanding the particular methodology, I have to concur with Gavin here - there is NOTHING within the field of martial arts or its related practices that cannot be explained in plain terms other than yin-yang and/or 5-element theory, "qi" OR "bio-energetics".

Besides, 5-element theory is just that - a "theory", albeit an archaic theory, describing the supportive and opposing relationships between "elements" with specific qualities or properties, and the inter-relationship between the "elements" of nature and man. It is NOT specifically about "energy" or energy fields, although I can see why it tends to be inferred.

"Energy" is simply a convenient English metaphor, albeit an inaccurate one, for the etheric "quality" known as "qi" - a word which only has contextual meaning within the Chinese and Japanese cultures. I can tell you this because I am a native-speaking Chinese... "qi" means a lot of different things, depending on contextual use - none of which actually mean "energy". At best, the word "qi" itself literally means "air" or "breath" (again depending on context)... but not "energy" - so any translation/transliteration of the word to mean the same "thing" as "energy", is not meant to be treated as a literal translation.

Of course we all put out a small EMF... but it's so small it's virtually useless for anything practical. Sure you can affect a person's EMF (within average human parameters) - only IF they are OPEN to it, which we both already agree. Bodyworkers who haven't studied TCM will also tell you the same thing - treatments work better if the patient is receptive to it.

So, I think any further discussion regarding human bio-EMF is moot. Anyone who is interested in EMF and it's effect on humans is welcome to Google it. There's a plethora of research available out there in that regards, particularly as it pertains to EMF and low frequency EMR and why power lines and mobile phones can kill, why you need to sit at least 3m from the TV, and why using a "laptop" on your lap is not a good idea if you plan on having "normal" children. wink

In any case, "bio-energy" isn't particularly relevant to IMA training, although, it *may* be a by-product of IMA training... big difference there.


Edited by eyrie (07/04/09 07:27 AM)

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#422348 - 09/14/09 07:30 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Anonymous]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Wow, just wow.

Dave no need to go to the JREF. I have a standing offer of $1,000 US to anyone who can move me with their (insert non-physical method here). So far no takers.

You simply stop me from walking up and pouring a glass of water on your head. With whatever chi/qi/energy/pink-unicorn-powah! that you choose. If you get wet...I win.

It simply can't be done without the use of a confederate or through the use of NLP/Trance like Derren does. NLP/Trance can cause this effect and typically does so in the cases of master/student.


I have crossed hands with some of the best IMA guys in the states and although it seems magical, it isn't.

BTW kempoman in London Sep 29th - Oct 3rd.
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Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

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#422353 - 09/15/09 02:12 AM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Kempoman]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Kempoman

BTW kempoman in London Sep 29th - Oct 3rd.


Yes my Yank friend I know... confirm the date of our meet up so I can pencil it in the diary. Bossman (Steve) has said he'll pop along if he's free too! cool
_________________________
Gavin King
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#431453 - 02/05/11 03:21 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
a bit refreshing to see many have come down to earth on this topic. smile

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#431739 - 03/15/11 03:09 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Ed_Morris]
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
LOL I'm surprised its still here.....
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Allow me to acquaint you with my friends Mr Jab and Mr Cross...

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#432383 - 05/14/11 10:39 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Reiki]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Earth? Mother Earth, the universal force of all force

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#435600 - 12/27/12 06:06 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: 47MartialMan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
hoping to finally get the last word on this topic smile
"Qi energy" is a mental construct used as a learning tool for getting the feel for intended technique. It's not a measurable energy in the scientific sense. although leading people to believe that it really is an untapped supernatural energy is easier to sell....martial and healing arts alike.

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