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#367156 - 10/30/07 06:44 PM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: MattJ]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
the guy trying to do pressure points in that video was...??? Would you believe neither? While it was a "busy" grappling video, I saw a number of places where PP attacks could have been made, and since the participants were only "grappling", it only proves that the PP attacks need to be quick, and "to the point".

My experience has been that when someone is attacking a PP and you struggle, you only make it worse. I did judo for almost 35 years, and a lot of the training was how to use PP attacks within the rules... "disguising them", if you will.

I thought the "pressure points that don't exist" video was hilarious... and it only goes to show you that you can argue anything until you run into it. I have no doubt that the uke in that video was giving 100% resistance, and it was also clear that he was "paying for it" as the PP were applied.

Not disrespecting anybody, but modern day grapplers think they invented this stuff, but we were doing it 45 years ago when I started MA. Back then, it was part of self-defense training, and the "trophy" was being able to walk off the mat without being "crippled" by your opponent. It was closer to MMA than I'd like to admit, but we sure used PP every chance we got, and while they weren't our "fighting style", they were useful to break grips, locks, pins, and force the other guy to change positions or effect a release.
Good judo grapplers know a million ways to "cheat" the rules... and dropping a boney surface on a PP and lighting you up was just part of the technique. "Fighting" and "competition" are two completely different scenarios and mindsets... and you can rest assured that the training was a whole lot bloodier than the tournaments... we didn't have rules during practice.

What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

#367157 - 10/30/07 07:43 PM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia

I believe Russell Stutely (the guy on the ground in the above video) is an FA member. Ask him if he was resisting John Andrews and what did it feel like when he did.

Something to bear in mind too is the LEVEL at which some people are playing at... it may not look like the same sort of resistance one might see in say the drmickey vid, and would be more like the Inosanto/Machado vid in the other thread.

#367158 - 10/31/07 05:08 PM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: eyrie]
Russell_Stutely Offline

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 22

What a palava.... Mattj.. you are comparing a bit of fun, the clip with John Andrews, with a couple of guys in a competition.

It is like comparing training jabs on a bag and saying the guy jabbing is not getting the same resistance he would get in the ring against a real opponent.

Of course a fight is COMPLETELY different to training. of course the level of resistance is different.

What i do not believe is that all the "tough guys" train balls out all the time and 100% resist everything all the time. Yet, the talk is as if, that is what they do.

We do it this way

Learn with little to no resistance
Train with some resistance - at varying levels
Pressure test with no compliance

That simple.. I assume that any fighter / MA / Coach / Instructor with half a brain would agree with that approach??

Having said that, John does the same to me no matter what anyway! Mind you, i have seen him do the same in winning titles as well... full resistance yet he got through them and tapped 'em out in under 30 seconds. If only they had resisted properly!!

I find it amazing, that after all this time, people still come out with the same tired arguments about what we do... and yet NEVER come along and train... exception being Gavin a few days ago... his write up available at
Russell Stutely

#367159 - 10/31/07 05:48 PM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: Russell_Stutely]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Hi Russell. I can only go by what is on the clip, and my own (admittedly limited) understanding of either pressure points or grappling.

I am not arguing that PP's will not ever work. In certain situations, with certain people, they can - I have seen it. My contention is that with the clip apparently showing how to use PP's in a grappling scenario, we should assume that the grappling opponent has SOME skill, yes? Unless we are talking about using PP's against an untrained grappler - but that was not how it was implied to me.

Therefore, to try to show efficacy of these PP's against a grappler, with the grappler not really resisting as a trained grappler would, seems to muddle the point of the clips.

We do not train 100% in my BJJ class all the time. But when doing resistant drills, there is significant resistance (50-80%). If the opponent's job is to try to get a PP on me, and my job is to not let him, then I am going to do so earnestly. This does not mean injure him, but offer authentic resistance.

I did not mean to imply that you were not resisting in the clips, but rather that a trained grappler would be able to offer more or better resistance. I would be sincerely interested to see how well the strikes would work against a BJJ blue belt, for instance - even in a "light resistance" ie; no injury format.



Learn with little to no resistance
Train with some resistance - at varying levels
Pressure test with no compliance

Exactly how we do it, too.

"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

#367160 - 10/31/07 05:55 PM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: Russell_Stutely]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK

. and yet NEVER come along and train... exception being Gavin a few days ago...

Huh? A few days ago? You mean a couple of years mate! Regardless John Andrews is definately the real deal. Wouldn't mind seeing you try those points on him though Russ bet he'd still managed to snap something off ya even if you dropped a bloody crane on him!

Edit: In fact if I remember correctly wasn't John showing one of the Gracie's something to do with points at SENI the other year?

Edited by Gavin (10/31/07 05:57 PM)
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#367161 - 10/31/07 06:50 PM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: Gavin]
Russell_Stutely Offline

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 22
Sorry Gav.. typed days instead of years... my age you know!

John was due to be doing that but it did not happen. Ref using the Points on John... yes they work, of course, but John is so good at groundwork that he breaks things off you BEFORE you get a chance to do anything to him! Stand up.. now I have a chance:-) Ground.. no way never

Matt resistance at 50-80% is fairly standard in any type of grappling / Judo etc class, glad we agree. Same in Johns classes... difference being, John goes at 10-15% and lets the others go at 50-80%, still the same result.

The other guy in the Clip, Kenny, has great grappling skills... at nearly 50 he can still do the business with "tough guys" half his age!

Plus, Matt, we did no strikes in the clip... It gets far worse with strikes. This was an EXAMPLE of where and how they can be used... with a bit of fun ribbing about all the people saying they do not work!

I saw John do the same thing to a "trained grappler" at SENI. He was fairly well ranked in BJJ, purple I think.

I would HIGHLY recommend people training with John.. he ain't bad you know!

Another clip of John at play: martialartsyoutube



Edited by Russell_Stutely (10/31/07 07:12 PM)
Russell Stutely

#367162 - 10/31/07 11:13 PM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: BrianS]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas

Can someone please tell me why this is called fighting?
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<

#367163 - 11/01/07 06:52 AM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: Russell_Stutely]
underdog Offline

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Thank you Sir. I've had the weight bearing techniques explained to me before but not from the perspective of pressure points. It now makes much more sense to me and I believe I shall be able to apply it more consistantly and effectively. Sometimes it just takes a few different words or point of view.
The older I get, the better I was!

#367164 - 11/01/07 06:55 AM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: BrianS]
JKogas Offline

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina

Can someone please tell me why this is called fighting?

Because some people have very broad definitions of what fighting is apparently.

#367165 - 11/01/07 11:13 AM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: JKogas]
underdog Offline

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Because it is an instructional clip promo for a larger DVD. Many people teach beginners slowly proceeding from the known to the related unknown. The overall goal is to learn to "fight", however, any beginner increment will be situational slow practice. The title is a matter of personal preference.

I'll concede that if someone prefers to reserve the word "fight" for higher end competition or comparable rules of engagement, then it was the wrong title.

Personally, I wouldn't fault the whole work because of the title choice. When I see the clip, I can decern it's intended use and audience and appreciate it's relative value for what it is.
The older I get, the better I was!

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