FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 30 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
BUJU, Pilsungkarate, ALF, old1, Leonar
22928 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Ronin1966 3
futsaowingchun 2
ergees 2
GojuRyuboy13 2
cxt 1
October
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
New Topics
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
10/25/14 04:53 PM
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
09/25/14 08:50 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by Leo_E_49
01/24/12 02:58 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by
05/13/07 08:02 AM
Recent Posts
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/29/14 10:01 PM
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
10/25/14 04:53 PM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
10/22/14 07:20 AM
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by swordy
10/11/14 09:21 AM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ronin1966
10/08/14 09:22 PM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by AndyLA
10/04/14 10:20 AM
Forum Stats
22928 Members
36 Forums
35584 Topics
432513 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#367146 - 10/29/07 01:23 PM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: BrianS]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
If you want to learn Kyusho, you can forget about the videos and expensive seminars. There are plenty of books on Shiatsu/accupressure, accupuncture, etc. to study from.
Or just go to classes on Shiatsu and Traditional Chinese Medicine instead of kyushojutsu seminars.
You don't need specialized training in how to attack these points. You just need to learn the locations and the effects of the strike/manipulation. Although you will have to experiment some to learn what part of the body works best for striking. You will see that with some parts of the body the edge of the open hand fits nicely, while some will require a fist where others you need to use fingers to dig in.
It can be dangerous to do these sorts of things. You certainly do not want to try these on people with high blood pressure, heart murmers or really any other medical problems.

You will find a lot of people in jail on murder or manslaughter charges whose defense was "I didn't mean to kill him". What happened, was they got in a lucky shot that inadvertantly hit a vital spot just the right way and the guy fell down and died. These could have been blows that would have stunned or knocked anyone else out. But if the person being struck had another medical condition (even undiagnosed) that could have been all it took to turn a knockout shot into a kill shot.
Some of the older Chiense texts about pressure points talk about not only striking points, but times of the day to strike (or not too). Just like the tides affected by the moon, etc. So are our bodies. There are some texts that say things like "strike this poing in the morning - that point in the evening". It's also good to know when to not strike. What might just stun someone in the morning could kill them in the evening.

Top
#367147 - 10/29/07 03:17 PM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: BrianS]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Maybe we disagree on how to teach pressure points, or even how to teach. In my orientation, pressure point use for a KO medium, heavy or light, in unpredictable motion is more advanced than working from predictable situations or not doing KO at all. Most Pressure point use is not for KO. Maybe you do, but I have difficulty believing you throw beginners into random attacks early on before they have some facility in a repertoire of practiced situations like kumite or other drills.

Actually, working KO in unpredictable motion is what I'm working on now and I've been training this stuff since 2003, AFTER I had a black belt in my basic style. The clips Brian posted were for beginners. I thought they were good teaching clips for beginners. It is fine to disagree. It is strictly an opinion and everyone is entitled to their own, including me.

If my disagreement is ALSO allowed, I would never teach defense against random attacks with people that you are not used to, to beginners. They need to learn their basics first in predictable situations with people they know who aren't suddently going to move into a strike or something that could cause an injury.

The Red Sox is my professional baseball team. Up until a couple of years ago, they had never won a national championship. Sports superstition thought them under a curse from a former player. The Sox would got close, but could never win a championship. They were underdogs. Now they have won 2 championships. I have a big place in my heart for the underdogs. Read my blog on perseverence at my Kyushospace site.


Edited by underdog (10/29/07 03:18 PM)
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

Top
#367148 - 10/29/07 06:11 PM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: underdog]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Maybe we disagree on how to teach pressure points, or even how to teach. In my orientation, pressure point use for a KO medium, heavy or light, in unpredictable motion is more advanced than working from predictable situations or not doing KO at all. Most Pressure point use is not for KO. Maybe you do, but I have difficulty believing you throw beginners into random attacks early on before they have some facility in a repertoire of practiced situations like kumite or other drills.





I agree somewhat. Pressure points can be used to release or loosen someone's grip, to set up other strikes, or just to inflict pain. They don't necessarily have to be for knockouts.

Quote:

Actually, working KO in unpredictable motion is what I'm working on now and I've been training this stuff since 2003, AFTER I had a black belt in my basic style. The clips Brian posted were for beginners. I thought they were good teaching clips for beginners. It is fine to disagree. It is strictly an opinion and everyone is entitled to their own, including me.






I started getting an understanding of pressure points in the early 90's. Being taught to use them with my karate, even on the ground. Like you said, it enhances the art.
I do not agree with the way the video is presented. It says "pressure point fighting" I saw no fighting whatsoever. It should say pressure point demonstartion, because that's what it is.

Quote:

If my disagreement is ALSO allowed, I would never teach defense against random attacks with people that you are not used to, to beginners. They need to learn their basics first in predictable situations with people they know who aren't suddently going to move into a strike or something that could cause an injury.





I agree with that. Someone could be seriously hurt, as I stated before.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#367149 - 10/29/07 11:29 PM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: underdog]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Roseanne,
the people in our Aikido class shudder when they think I'm going to teach Yonkyo, and they start sitting on their hands to keep their wrists away from me. That being said, it's obviously one of my better and favorite techniques. Would I try to defend myself using it... not likely... although I might "enhance" my defensive technique using it for "punishment after the whistle blows". It's clearly one of the better pressure point techniques for painful application, but just absolutely sucks for picking a method of implementing it for self defense outside of the "standard attacks" of Aikido.

Some people seem to forget that fighting is a "preservation art", and the one who uses the least amount of energy, has to work the least, and whoever gets the most "bang for their buck" in their technique will win most of the time. That being said, it doesn't mean you abandon "fighting" to take the "short cuts" or enhancements of pressure point fighting to replace your fighting system... you simply employ them to make your system more efficient. I know you've said that a thousand times, but it just doesn't seem to sink in... it's not an "either or" situation, but a "this and" situation.

Where in karate I was taught to use a shuto (knife hand) strike to the forearm just before the elbow... in "pressure point" terms, I'm striking Lung 5 or Colon 10, and adding the "complimentary strikes" to make it more effective. What's the difference?... my method of striking... my "follow up" strikes... my ability to simply ignore their next movements because their arms don't work... and what caused it?... nerve damage... meridian points?... system shock?.. blocked ki? The answers change depending on who you ask, and actually how you perform the techniques.

I'm 63 now, and I don't look to "go the distance" with a boxer, or randori with a 25 year old. I'm looking to knock his lights out, and the pressure point techniques allow me to do that with relatively little effort. My jujutsu skills allow me to punish them for being stupid enough to touch me, but I don't look to replace any fighting skill with pressure point techniques... only to enhance the skills and make them more effective.

Like Aikido, where you have a "willing accomplice" in your demonstration of technique, kyusho is more easily accomplished with someone willing to be knocked out or made sick on their stomach by undergoing a pressure point strike... but that's only in the "teaching mode". In the fighting mode, it doesn't matter whether they're "willing" or not... hit them correctly, and they go down like a stone in water... just like in Aikido, when someone really gives you force, they pay for it dynamically.

Teaching is all about "controlling the technique"... fighting is about applying the technique "with force" or intent. Pressing on nerves makes the work less exhaustive... and striking to elevate someone's blood pressure to make them dizzy is simply an effective use of body dynamics to protect yourself from harm.

Lo, those many years ago when I was young, my "close contact fighting" was all knees and elbows... and it was easy to see that the damage it could cause was immense. As I refined my skills, I learned to do the same things using pressure points without all the injury time outs and bruises.

Novices only see the gross movements of fighting, and to them, "pressure points" sounds like an alternative fighting system. Regardless of how many times you tell them that they are merely enhancements, they will persist that "pressure points are the way to fight". While I don't disagree with that, I do disagree that it's a "fighting system" of itself.

Not too long ago, I had a discussion with a guy who was 7th dan in kempo, and he mentioned "star point" exercises. I found out through the course of discussion, he had no idea what the "star points" were, or what they did... so even "knowing pressure points" didn't give him "the" answer he was looking for because he didn't understand the information.

At camp a few years ago, my uke was a hard-training Okinawan stylist that had some ukemi (falling) skills, so I used him in my demonstrations. His buddies were poking at him about making faces when I did the techniques, and he told them "I don't know what this looks like to you, but he's lighting my a$$ up every time he touches me".

While I know the general demeanor of people being "masters" of anything on this forum, I've trained with some people who truly were. What I learned from them, was how to "accelerate" the techniques by using pressure points and kyusho methods, and how to use my karate skills to "get to the points". Neither skill is exclusive of the other.

Training without knowing what to expect from your uke is like driving a car without knowing if it has brakes or steering... it's easy to end up in the ditch, or in the wall. There will always be detractors who don't put any stock into pressure point training... and there will be those that think it is the "end all" of fighting. Somewhere in between is "mastery". It's a matter of knowing your art, how to enhance it, and what the limits of it's efficacy are.

When that fails, pick up your Smith and Wesson...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Top
#367150 - 10/30/07 12:10 AM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: BrianS]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Nah... pressure points don't exist and don't work....

http://www.martialartsyoutube.com/view_v...=&category=


Top
#367151 - 10/30/07 07:30 AM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Nah... pressure points don't exist and don't work....

http://www.martialartsyoutube.com/view_v...=&category=






See discussion here:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15967080
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#367152 - 10/30/07 12:14 PM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: BrianS]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I'd be curious to see a clip from one of your schools MattJ, Gavin, or BrianS. I hear what you are saying and I'm mentally trying to see how you teach and I'm not getting a clear picture.

Do you have any teaching clips either from classes that you are actually teaching or demo clips for teaching like Theo's that YOU think are GOOD? If not, can you find one of someone else's that you think is a good example of a teaching demo clip suitable for beginners? That would be something for a comparable audience as Theo's. I'll get a better picture if you show me a GOOD one than I'm getting by hearing the discussion about a bad one. It need not have pressure points on it. My questions are actually more broad than the specific topic. The questions I have involve more teaching methods in Martial arts especially where safety and skill building are concerned.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

Top
#367153 - 10/30/07 12:40 PM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Eyrie...
thanks for your Ahhh... Stutely observations...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Top
#367154 - 10/30/07 12:53 PM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: underdog]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

I'd be curious to see a clip from one of your schools MattJ, Gavin, or BrianS. I hear what you are saying and I'm mentally trying to see how you teach and I'm not getting a clear picture.




This isn't from my school, but this is representative of how grapplers REALLY resist. Check this thread here:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...74#Post15967979

Note how they don't just lay there in the guard - they are attacking. Fishing for armbars, going for sweeps, etc. That is what I mean by the guy in Eyrie's video was not resisting.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#367155 - 10/30/07 06:22 PM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: MattJ]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
OK. That helps. If that is an example of a good clip for teaching beginners, the same audience as Theo's clip, then we are talking about apples and oranges. I'd call the submission grappler's clip a training clip for advanced students. It is a good clip.

This clip has nothing in common with the clip from Stutely's site either. There is no basis really for comparing the two. Stutely's clip is just a funny clip with a very limited message for a limited audience. I can see why it evoked the reaction it did.

Now I know.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

Top
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Stun Guns
Variety of stun gun devices for your protection

Buy Pepper Spray
Worry about your family when you’re not around? Visit us today to protect everything you value.

Koryu.com
Accurate information on the ancient martial traditions of the Japanese samurai

C2 Taser
Protect yourself and loved ones from CRIME with the latest C2 Taser citizen model. Very effective.

 

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga