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#367136 - 10/25/07 11:17 PM Pressure point fighting
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
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#367137 - 10/26/07 07:13 AM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: BrianS]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I liked those clips. Theo http://www.kyushospace.com/profile.aspx?id_user=109 has been developing some new instructional materials. He has good skills. If these are a sample of his production talent, a school would be well served to include his stuff. I thought he should have included the point names, even if they wouldn't be in English. He is from Belgium.

Why don't you pick a clip once a month or every other month or so for PP? You do a better job at it than I do.

Red Sox beat the Rockies 2-1.
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#367138 - 10/29/07 12:36 AM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: BrianS]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Pressure point fighting could be a good practice, however, I have never seen it.

I have seen many videos of pressure point instructors who know where and how to hit, then they have a student of theirs stand in front of them while they practice on them. Is this good practice? I think not, I think it's irresponsible and abusive.

Four and five pressure point combo's would only happen theoretically.
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#367139 - 10/29/07 08:37 AM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: BrianS]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
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Hmmm. I wish I knew what it was that you were expecting to see from pressure points.

When I see a demonstration of Aikido, or attend a seminar that has an Aikido session, the instructor will demonstrate that which is to be practiced, on one of his own students. It doesn't mean the technique wouldn't work on someone else, it just means that it is easy to demonstrate on someone who's ability to fall you can trust, and who will give you what you need to make a good demonstration. I never thought of that as a bad thing.

To go a step further, when I see an Aikido person teaching pressure point techniques, they show how they enhance their Aikido. They don't suddenly stop doing Aikido and just start hitting pressure points as if they thought pressure points was a complete style or system.

What is it that you would like to see? I'm just not getting the problem. If it is a question of not knowing what the end result would look like for a pressure point practitioner doing a technique, I'll find some material for you that is in a more complete martial arts context and not in isolation like the clips I posted that were not helpful.

If it is just that you KNOW what to expect but you disagree that pressure points are worth the time to develop and train, then fine. I'll let it be.

My Red Sox did it in 4! Go Sox. Go Pats.
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#367140 - 10/29/07 09:45 AM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: underdog]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I think the issue is that the light tap demo's are only ever done on the demonstrators own students. It has been suggested many times in the past that LTKO's have more to with pre-conditioned responses than real world combat effective martial arts. What I think Brian is suggesting is that he would like to see a demo such as this performed on an impartial potentially unconditioned Uke and thus eliminating the chance that people are just falling over because of some subliminal suggestion which has knowingly and unknowingly be placed there.

I personally would like to see this demo's done in a dynamic free flowing "Alive" environment where the Uke responds in a manner that my experience would consider to be realistic. I'd like to have a random attack thrown, not necessarily at full power, but hard enough to get the defenders juices flowing a bit so that they respond subconsciously and intuitively. I would then like to see the Uke make some effort to respond to the fact that someone is trying to K.O them. A lot of demo's I see the Uke throws one attack and then lets the defender hit them. That I think would greatly effect the ability to access the follow up targets off of the initial strike.

At the end of the day I think we need the demo's to be a lot less scripted, more contact, more dynamic and more realistic. I think that would put a lot of the critics minds at rest.

Quote:

My Red Sox did it in 4! Go Sox. Go Pats.




I have no idea what this Red Sox business is all about, at first I thought it was a private joke between you and Brian, but you recently used it to communicate with me. Could you share the joke so I can have a giggle as well...otherwise it does seem a little belittling and that would be a clear case of the pot calling the kettle black. Wouldn't ya think?
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#367141 - 10/29/07 10:08 AM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: Gavin]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I think the issue is that the light tap demo's are only ever done on the demonstrators own students. It has been suggested many times in the past that LTKO's have more to with pre-conditioned responses than real world combat effective martial arts. What I think Brian is suggesting is that he would like to see a demo such as this performed on an impartial potentially unconditioned Uke and thus eliminating the chance that people are just falling over because of some subliminal suggestion which has knowingly and unknowingly be placed there.






This has alot to do with it,however, the student might be new and have no idea what he is in for. When teaching karate I am sometimes of uke abuse as well. some people just won't believe it until you show them. I would like to see it on an impartial uke as Gavin suggests.

Quote:

I personally would like to see this demo's done in a dynamic free flowing "Alive" environment where the Uke responds in a manner that my experience would consider to be realistic. I'd like to have a random attack thrown, not necessarily at full power, but hard enough to get the defenders juices flowing a bit so that they respond subconsciously and intuitively. I would then like to see the Uke make some effort to respond to the fact that someone is trying to K.O them. A lot of demo's I see the Uke throws one attack and then lets the defender hit them. That I think would greatly effect the ability to access the follow up targets off of the initial strike.





I don't think this is possible. It could possibly open the uke or the tori to serious injury just for the sake of practice. I don't think I could do that any more than I can practice some bunkai 'alive'. I believe in aliveness for the sake of getting a good feel for contact and conflict, but not to inflict potentially serious harm. One thing is for sure though, there would be no pressure point combo attacks that the uke reacts perfectly to such as in the demo. That's what makes it unrealistic.

Quote:

I have no idea what this Red Sox business is all about, at first I thought it was a private joke between you and Brian, but you recently used it to communicate with me. Could you share the joke so I can have a giggle as well...otherwise it does seem a little belittling and that would be a clear case of the pot calling the kettle black. Wouldn't ya think?




Apparently Rosanne is a baseball fan.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#367142 - 10/29/07 10:15 AM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: underdog]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

When I see a demonstration of Aikido, or attend a seminar that has an Aikido session, the instructor will demonstrate that which is to be practiced, on one of his own students. It doesn't mean the technique wouldn't work on someone else, it just means that it is easy to demonstrate on someone who's ability to fall you can trust, and who will give you what you need to make a good demonstration. I never thought of that as a bad thing.





That's true,but aikido demonstrations don't hold much credibility with me either. I do like demonstrations,but let's call them that. Let's not call it "pressure point fighting" or "pressure point sparring", that is not at all what it is.

Quote:

To go a step further, when I see an Aikido person teaching pressure point techniques, they show how they enhance their Aikido. They don't suddenly stop doing Aikido and just start hitting pressure points as if they thought pressure points was a complete style or system.






I agree. Pressure point knowledge can definately enhance any one's particular art.

Quote:

What is it that you would like to see? I'm just not getting the problem. If it is a question of not knowing what the end result would look like for a pressure point practitioner doing a technique, I'll find some material for you that is in a more complete martial arts context and not in isolation like the clips I posted that were not helpful.






The main problem is the misrepresentation of what is happening. There was no fighting or sparring in those videos. It was just a demonstration with a passive uke. The uke could make Jim Carrey look good at karate.



Quote:

If it is just that you KNOW what to expect but you disagree that pressure points are worth the time to develop and train, then fine. I'll let it be.





I don't think they are worth all the time some people put into it, but they do enhance whatever you are doing.

LTKO's, not worth it.
NTKO's, not worth it at all.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#367143 - 10/29/07 10:19 AM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: BrianS]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

http://www.martialartsyoutube.com/view_v...=&category=





Can't say that I cared for this one much. While I know that some of the points demoed in the video can be painful or incapacitating, the guy did not take advantage of the attacker's reactions very well. After doing the knee to the back of the leg, the defender waits until the attacker "settles", THEN hits him in the back of the head. This is a big waste of both 1) time and 2) the "borrowed force" of the attacker's head snapping backwards IN TO the oncoming strike to the back of the head.

JMO.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#367144 - 10/29/07 11:10 AM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: BrianS]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

It could possibly open the uke or the tori to serious injury just for the sake of practice. I don't think I could do that any more than I can practice some bunkai 'alive'. I believe in aliveness for the sake of getting a good feel for contact and conflict, but not to inflict potentially serious harm.




Dillman didn't use to have a problem with it. I also saw Leon Jay do the most impressive K.O during a Remy Presas seminar about 9 or so years ago. They were actually sparring properly...but the guy was out for about 5 minutes so you might have a point. I must admit me and James used to have private sessions where we tried this stuff out...I think our record was about ten minutes for our longest session...and that was when the headaches started kicking in.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#367145 - 10/29/07 12:56 PM Re: Pressure point fighting [Re: Gavin]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:

It could possibly open the uke or the tori to serious injury just for the sake of practice. I don't think I could do that any more than I can practice some bunkai 'alive'. I believe in aliveness for the sake of getting a good feel for contact and conflict, but not to inflict potentially serious harm.




Dillman didn't use to have a problem with it. I also saw Leon Jay do the most impressive K.O during a Remy Presas seminar about 9 or so years ago. They were actually sparring properly...but the guy was out for about 5 minutes so you might have a point. I must admit me and James used to have private sessions where we tried this stuff out...I think our record was about ten minutes for our longest session...and that was when the headaches started kicking in.




We still don't know the long term effects of pressure point ko's. I don't want to be the guinea pig either.

Matt,
Good point on the video. It's like we can read his thoughts. "Here, then here......now here, oh, here".
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