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#366740 - 10/23/07 01:41 AM Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right?
Stormdragon Offline
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What do any of you know about or think of the idea of Thoughtforms (for example the Tibetan Tulpas or Jewish Golems-energy clusters that can be made to do things and take different forms-I'm not crazy! lol)? Or Jungs Archetypes (for example anima/animus).
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#366741 - 10/23/07 02:41 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Stormdragon]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Quote:

...energy clusters that can be made to do things and take different forms-I'm not crazy! lol)?




Perhaps after some elaboration on this statement, we'll then decide whether you are crazy or not.

I've heard of 'thought-experiments' though.
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#366742 - 10/23/07 06:54 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Stormdragon]
harlan Offline
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Uhhmmm...it's all in your mind?

J/k...could you give a context? I mean, it's like asking...'what do you know about cars'???

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#366743 - 10/23/07 07:47 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: harlan]
harlan Offline
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ps...thread should be moved to Meditation or general forum.

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#366744 - 10/23/07 12:11 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: harlan]
Stormdragon Offline
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#366745 - 10/24/07 04:52 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Stormdragon]
trevek Offline
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Interesting.

As I understand it a Golem is not so much a thought-form as an animated lump of clay. It can only obey specific instructions and these must be quite exact.

It only obeys that which it is specifically told to do but doesn't necessarily know when to stop or moderate its behaviour.

In the case of shamanic spirits, I believe a shaman (in the Siberian traditions) may collect several of these (rather than 'create' them). Arguably the quest process where the shaman seeks such a form would involve some kind of visualisation of what the form would be and what the abilities of the form would be. A bit like inventing a pokemon, I suppose.
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#366746 - 10/24/07 06:39 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: trevek]
Stormdragon Offline
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Yeah true, although a golem is still suppsoed to infused with psychic (divine I guess) energy isn't it? Kind of like a thoughtform. So what would you create? I'd make a very obediant and beautiful girl.
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#366747 - 10/25/07 08:10 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Stormdragon]
trevek Offline
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The metalsmith in Kalevala did that, he made a golden woman. Personally I'd like a very naughty girl...
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#366748 - 10/25/07 08:17 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: trevek]
harlan Offline
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I think that this topic is best closed and that 'golems' might be more suitably discussed in the 'zombie' thread.

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#366749 - 10/25/07 01:21 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: harlan]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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It has been argued that this whole Universal Creation is, in the first place, a physical manifestation of God's own 'ThoughtForm' and so any 'creature' (however beautiful or naughty) created or manifested by anyone's 'ThoughtForm' can only be an...ehhh...'After-Thought'?
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#366750 - 10/25/07 04:39 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: harlan]
trevek Offline
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OK Harlan, I'll be all feminist and I'll behave!

I think the validity of the thread here is that we may consider whether thought-forms are something which can be 'conjured' through intense meditation.

A famous description of a shamanic ceremony in Siberia has the shaman meditating before calling up his spirit helpers. In a sense it might be argued that he has to meditate to concentrate and focus on projecting these thought forms.
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#366751 - 10/25/07 07:27 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: trevek]
Stormdragon Offline
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When these things (or if) are conjured into physical manifestatiosn are they really real or simply mass hypnosis or something? It's easy to make those things real for oyurself and hallucinate but how does it happen to other people too who don't know about your conjuring activities? Any scientific explanation?
Could this be a reason for schizophrenia or other mental disabilities i nsome cases?
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#366752 - 10/26/07 07:46 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Stormdragon]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Stormdragon, there is rarely "scientific" explanation for a very intense spiritual experience. Scientists and doctors can study all they want, and tell us what is actually going on inside the brain and body, but they can't tell if there is an outside stimulus causing it or not.

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#366753 - 10/27/07 01:50 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Stormdragon Offline
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Actually they can in many cases using MRI among other methods.
So what do you think about this stuff from an objective point of view? How can it affect other people which is said to often happen?
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#366754 - 10/28/07 12:12 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Stormdragon]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Stormdragon, they can MRI all they want, but that only shows what activity is going on, it still says nothing about the stimulus causing it.

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#366755 - 10/28/07 03:44 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Stormdragon]
fileboy2002 Offline
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They are colorful myths.

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#366756 - 10/28/07 06:00 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: fileboy2002]
Stormdragon Offline
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If you do osmething (I.E stimulate) someone and then all of a sudden one part of the brain lights up yo uget a pretty good idea that that is the cause. If we didn't have any idea what caused stuff there would be n psychology or sociology. Judging by the effectiveness of mental health professionals in recent history they must know something. I'm sorry but they at least have a good idea on many things and that is fact. Need I post evidence?
Anyway myths gotta have SOMETHING to them.
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#366757 - 10/29/07 04:33 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Stormdragon]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Fileboy, your most recent posts make me wonder how you've lasted this long.

Stormdragon, go to a Charismatic Pentecostal church service sometime. You could watch the entire worship segment postulating that a is happening because of b neurotransmitter being released in heavy amounts, but the fact is, there is no knowing why b neurotransmitter is being released in heavy amounts. I've had some pretty intense spiritual experiences, both as a Buddhist, and as a Charismatic Christian, and I tried at one time to understand the cause. I've found that just accepting some things are a matter of faith is the best course. The best way to understand a spiritual experience is to have one yourself.

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#366758 - 10/29/07 05:40 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Stormdragon Offline
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So have I and I've also studied psychology, sociology and physiology very in depth. Yo ushould take a look at the full story before making decisions based entirely on one paradigm. Intense speritual experiences are usually, almost always in fact, easy to explain, it is the release of heavy doses of neurotransmitters, "pleasure" emitters, and in the case of prayer or meditation it is simply a shift in brain state resulting in an increased output of alpha waves and a sleep like state. Not likely the divine hand of God magically making you wiser or doing things. I believe the mind can do incredible thigns but I also believe it's simply our minds doing what they have evolved to do.
I know what you mean about strong speritual experiences I was raised Christian and have been to Pnetecostal, and Baptist churches, I've experienced, I've also experienced how easily it is to become desensitized and for the experience to change. It's not unlike a drug, only it's natural. It's a natural high. You can get the same feeling from sex but does that make it speritual? No it means it releases the right combination of chemicals in your brain.
Anyway we have evolved those particular sequences of chemical release as a survival mechanism, according to the latest evidence. I mean it doesn't mean those experiences are less powerful but it also doesn't mean they are some magical deal but simply a natural process. Why does it HAVE to be so fantastic?
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#366759 - 10/29/07 08:21 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Stormdragon]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Who said it had to be fantastic. I just say that spiritual experiences are just that, spiritual. I've also studied psych, soc, and phys, and I agree, knowing both sides of the story is of great benefit. I'm just glad you are truly exploring the issue, and not attacking spirituality, as I've seen way too often.

You are about to go through something very spiritual yourself- Basic Combat Training. There's another thing, don't limit your perception of the spiritual just because such an experience didn't happen in a setting of worship.

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#366760 - 10/30/07 12:01 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Stormdragon Offline
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I'm just saying that a speritual experiance may be a great and powerful thing, which it normally is, and can have a very positive effect on someone but that doesn't change the fact that we at least have a general idea or very well supported theories as to why it happens. It doesn't have to be a mystery to be special.
RIP is gonna be even better man.
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#366761 - 10/30/07 12:10 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Stormdragon]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Have fun. I'm for language school and a desk job. I'm getting too old for this shite.

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#366762 - 10/30/07 12:53 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Stormdragon Offline
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You wuss.
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#366763 - 10/30/07 02:06 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Stormdragon]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Listen boy, I'm a decade older than you. My body has been through a fair amount. My knees would never survive airborne school, my back can't handle the long ruck marches with a 85 lbs. ruck. I couldn't even pass the physical to get into ranger school. In this case, discretion is the better part of valor.

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#366764 - 10/30/07 07:07 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Stormdragon Offline
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Too bad buddy. You went in too dang late!
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#366765 - 10/31/07 02:23 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Stormdragon]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Nah, I'm going to go into linguistics, and then put in for WOCS. Best way for me to make a career out of the military.

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#366766 - 10/31/07 03:41 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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So what language you in for?
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#366767 - 10/31/07 05:27 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Stormdragon Offline
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So could I make a thought form to protect me and help kick Alqueda's ass while I'm in Iraq?
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#366768 - 10/31/07 02:11 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Stormdragon]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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BP, Arabic first, then later Japanese.

Stormdragon, remember the old saying "there is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole".

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#366769 - 10/31/07 06:04 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Stormdragon Offline
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I dont know I'm fairly comfortable being Agnostic but we'll see. If believing keeps me safer then sure why not believe?
Good luck learnign so many languages!
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#366770 - 01/01/08 04:09 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Stormdragon]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Myths may indeed have something to them; however, they may NOT have anything supernatural to them, because the supernatural does not exist.

For example, for years, the city of Troy was thought to be entirely mythical. Now we know it existed. But that does not mean the story told in the Illiad should be taken as history.

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#366771 - 01/07/08 12:01 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: fileboy2002]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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alright fileboy, I want you to thoroughly explain every unexplained incident that has ever happened on this planet. Then you make a blanket statement like that.

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#366772 - 01/08/08 04:56 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
fileboy2002 Offline
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What was my blanket statement? That the supernatural does not exist?

Christ, are you kidding? Am we in the 21st century or what?

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#366773 - 01/08/08 08:15 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

alright fileboy, I want you to thoroughly explain every unexplained incident that has ever happened on this planet. Then you make a blanket statement like that.




I dont think that will happen. Takes to much research and more than likely other articles written by other people dont cover all of it. So no link posted ( as yet) and the comment "if you cant (put in here the subject) then I cant help you" isnt used.



Quote:


What was my blanket statement? That the supernatural does not exist?

Christ, are you kidding? Am we in the 21st century or what?





Clever!
Fileboy why do we call this the 21st Century?
Why is this year called 2008?

Jude



Edited by jude33 (01/08/08 08:24 AM)

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#366774 - 01/08/08 08:29 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: jude33]
harlan Offline
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Quote:


What was my blanket statement? That the supernatural does not exist?

Christ, are you kidding? Am we in the 21st century or what?





Clever!
Fileboy why do we call this the 21st Century?
Why is this year called 2008?

Jude





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#366775 - 01/08/08 04:22 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: fileboy2002]
Stormdragon Offline
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Quote:

What was my blanket statement? That the supernatural does not exist?

Christ, are you kidding? Am we in the 21st century or what?




Yes it is a blanket statement and besides your own "feeling" about the matter how do you know it's true? Without sufficient and substantial evidence, no opinion or statement can be trusted no matter how true it seems. To do so goes right agaisnt the scientific method which basically allows you to entertain any possbilitiy until sufficient evidence says it's wrong and you've given none. According to that, according to logic, your opinion means nothing no offense. You may be right and we may be wrong but the reverse is as likely until evidence is given. Personal experience is not evidence by the way as people experience what they want and those experiences go both ways. you're smart enought to know all this I think. Don't state an opinion as fact or with a condenscending attitude until it is effectively backed.
If we all had your attitude society would still think the earth is the center of the universe. Opinion means nothing except as a vehicle to come up with testable hypotheses.
And it's ARE we not AM we.


Edited by Stormdragon (01/08/08 04:23 PM)
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#366776 - 01/13/08 07:05 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Stormdragon]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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OK, the commercial came faster than I thought. Fileboy, your statement is wrong on many levels. One is that it can't be backed up. Case in point, the Catholic Church employs some of the biggest skeptics to disprove supposed miracles. And yet, they occasionally have to call something a miracle. Because there is no documentation of natural phenomena occuring to explain something such as the visitation of Mary, or a healing.

Another thing is that mankind, the vast majority of mankind has had faith since its' earliest days. We have progressed far in the last ten thousand years, but faith remains a major part of 90% of people's lives. Your comment is an insult of humankind in general.

The thing that really ticks me off, though, is that you play this game of pseudo-intellectualism. That's right, I'm calling you a fake. You're making claims that a even a select minority refuses to make outright because of the reasons I listed above. Even Stormdragon admitted to being agnostic. I've known a few humanists in my time, and they all call themselves deists or agnostics. They even admit that someone calling themself an atheist is an excuse to live without any sort of moral rules. An outright denial of the supernatural is a denial of reality, because the current situation has not disproved the supernatural.


Edited by Bushi_no_ki (01/13/08 07:21 PM)

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#366777 - 01/14/08 08:18 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Stormdragon Offline
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What really convinces me of the existence of the supernatural is A. my own odd and unexplainable experiences (trust me I've tried to explain them as best I can-no go) and those of very trusted and usually sleptical family friends who are very educated and experienced (for example objects flying off the walls at high speeds up to 10 feet away purpendicular to the wall).
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#366778 - 01/19/08 09:54 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Quote:

They even admit that someone calling themself an atheist is an excuse to live without any sort of moral rules.



absolutely false. I think if you poll the people in prison, you'll find a minority are Atheist. If your statement is true, then how can that possibly be?

As an exercise, if you turn the statement around and say that people who live with thoughtforms (aka imaginary friends), are they more or less suceptable to use it as justification for their own immoral acts? fair question.

How many have killed in the name of their thoughtform?

and how many have killed others just because they had a different thoughtform?

so your statement can be asked both ways - the interesting point is: which question best fits history?


not picking on you bushi, just showing it may be the wrong direction to go for this thread.


perhaps a more constructive direction is discussing how concepts, mental constructs, visualization, etc can be used as tools for learning/understanding (particularly in learning a physical art) - thus bypassing the "my thoughtform is better than your thoughtform" spiral.

just a suggestion...

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#366779 - 01/20/08 05:44 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Loc: Chicago, IL
Sorry if I doubt the Catholic Church's qualifications to conduct scientific research. I have a pretty good way of explaining visitions by the Virgin Mary: THEY DON'T @#$% HAPPEN.

The vast majority of mankind has had faith from the earliest times. This is because we are thoughful beings who seem hard-wired to look for explanations for things. Lacking any means of investigating or conceptualizing the world scientifically, we created myths. Religion is a holdover from mankind's earliest attempts to make sense of the universe. But sorry, Bush_no_ki, I am not going to pay homage to a bunch of superstitious nonsense just because someone says, "it's my religion."

And here is the truth about morality: Good people are inclined to good, and evil people inclined to evil. It is only when you want a good person to do evil that you need religion.

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#366780 - 01/20/08 01:14 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: fileboy2002]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

Good people are inclined to good, and evil people inclined to evil.




So basically what you are saying is, at least as it comes to morality there are two "camps",

1. Good people.

and

2.Evil people.

That seems pretty simple. Which camp do you consider yourself to be in?

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#366781 - 01/20/08 06:38 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: oldman]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Well, I hope am in the "good" camp; I believe most people are. Most human beings try to act decently and do the "right" thing most of the time. When good people do evil, it is usually out of weakness or stupidity, not malice per se. Only a small minority of sociopaths, egomanics, sadists, etc are actively trying to do evil.

My point, howecver, was that there is no credible evidence that religion makes people any more or less moral. What percentage of murderers would answer "yes" if you asked them if they believe in God? I'd bet nearly all of them.
Religious people and organizations do a great deal of charity work, but so do secular organizations. Wherever our morality comes from, it does not seem to come from religion.

The one thing we do have evidence of is the ability of religion to turn otherwise peacefull, well meaning people into monsters. Take the case of Paul Hill, the anti-abortion terrorist who killed two people and seriously wounded one outside an abortion clinic in 1994. Hill was not evil. He had no history of violence and no personal grudge against his victims. Yet, he opened fire on them with a shotgun because he believed it was what God wanted.

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#366782 - 01/20/08 07:04 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: fileboy2002]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

The one thing we do have evidence of is the ability of religion to turn otherwise peacefull, well meaning people into monsters.




I think mostly what you are seeing is the ability of crazy people to twist any institution or ideal into something monsterous.

Money can do the same thing.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#366783 - 01/21/08 12:31 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: MattJ]
MatsFondelius Offline
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Registered: 01/16/08
Posts: 15
Hi,

I'm kind of "jumping in" on this discussion having read the first posts and the last - so as a polite Swede I excuse myself if I missed something in my comment below..!

The last few years I've become more and more intrigued by the spiritual side of MA and have been "digging" deep into issues like this by reading a lot but mainly by having "come to peace" with and acknowledged my "gift" of healing..!
Now you're free to call me crazy or not as the first blogger suggested - in fact if anyone would it's just this persons opinion - not a fact!
The same goes for the topic above about good and evil by the way...

What can I add to the original question then ..?

Well, by own experience in my healing work I've encountered this issue many times.
I KNOW now after 38 years in MA that the Power of the Mind and Thought Exceeds most peoples comprehension .
There are now the last decade literally tons of books that acknowledge "Thoughtforms" as a fact!!!

Not to be to long (could write a novel and I actually will...) this board could actually BE A THOUGHTFORM ...
Actually, even the fore front in Quantum physics now believe that what we see as our REALITY - the Physical world we believe we live in as well as the whole Universe might very well be a sort of Thoghtform as well as the life you live here and now...
This goes for Science - I just suggest you Imagine what spiritual people are suggesting in book after book nowadays!!!

To take a very "superficial" bestseller as a simple example - "The Secret" what does it suggest..?

Yes!
Then just take ONE step further and believe me there are truckloads of books and people out there that have or are doing it as we speak...
What you will find is that "Thoughtforms" today is not anymore a question of its EXISTENSE rather TODAYS ISSUE IS what it implies about the world and the lives we live today - actually right up there where Science in Quant Physics is today ..!

A mindblowing new revelation about our own existense as we think of it is what's out there...


Just read another bestseller that you can order from amazon.com right now e.g. = "Busting Loose From The Money Game" by Robert Scheinfeld; and you'll understand what I mean ..!

Kind regards,

Mats Fondelius

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#366784 - 01/21/08 01:25 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: MattJ]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Well, I am not sure the people who do terrible things are always crazy--at least not in the clinical sense (mentally ill). In fact, I tend to believe most aren't. Some of the most heinous crimes in human history were perpetrated by bureaucrats.

However, you are correct: money can the same effect, as can nationalism, racism, etc.

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#366785 - 01/21/08 01:50 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: fileboy2002]
Ed_Morris Offline
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I think I'm being shadowed by a rogue thoughtform...anyone have any good defense against dark art spells?

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#366786 - 01/21/08 03:40 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Ed_Morris]
MatsFondelius Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/16/08
Posts: 15
Hi Ed!

Hahaha, sure you are..!
This is the expected answer, right ?
In your case it is the answer !!!

But, I've actually Encountered and Helped people with issues like you mention - Spells & Curses etc..!

Not any rouge thoughtform though...

If your comment would have been seriously meant - Yes, I could "help" you as I have others.

All the best!

Mats Fondelius

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#366787 - 01/21/08 03:47 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

I think I'm being shadowed by a rogue thoughtform...anyone have any good defense against dark art spells?




...be careful what you wish or Thought you wish for...


Edited by ButterflyPalm (01/21/08 03:49 AM)
_________________________
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#366788 - 01/21/08 11:33 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
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one of the advantages of not being susceptable to superstition: using imagination without being consumed by it. it's other people's phantoms I watch out for.

how does that go...
"Neurotics build castles in the sky, psychotics live in them, Obsessive Compulsives clean them, and psychiatrists collect the rent."



about the 'healing' offer by Stuart Smalley over there - No thanks. curious though: I thought 'new age' went out of style a decade ago? people still playing with those superman crystals?

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#366789 - 01/21/08 12:17 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Ed_Morris]
MatsFondelius Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/16/08
Posts: 15
To ButterflyPalm!

A VERY GOOD POINT - definetely to be taken seriously by all !!!

However, we ALL have a Freedom of choice - therefore MOST people will by experience not listen to you ...

I hope my emphasis and agreement with you will make a diference in this matter!!!

To Ed - we are not talking "New Age" rather " Old & Forgotten Knowledge "..!

All the best guys!!!

Mats Fondelius

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#366790 - 01/21/08 03:29 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: MatsFondelius]
Ed_Morris Offline
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ah yes, "old forgotten knowledge"....which in your case might be stuff that hit the mainstream last decade.

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#366791 - 01/21/08 03:33 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Ed_Morris]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Just use you chi power Ed. That ough to fix 'em.

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#366792 - 01/21/08 03:37 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: fileboy2002]
MatsFondelius Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/16/08
Posts: 15
I Love your Inner attitude ED...

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#366793 - 01/21/08 04:17 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: MatsFondelius]
Ed_Morris Offline
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and I love your external agenda, MF.

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#366794 - 01/21/08 06:30 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: fileboy2002]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
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Quote:

And here is the truth about morality: Good people are inclined to good, and evil people inclined to evil. It is only when you want a good person to do evil that you need religion.




Can you clarify the above a bit?
And who're you to say that there even is "good and evil" or objective morality?

Anyway, so who're you to say with such certainty that all this superstition and beleif in the supernatural really is nonsense? Can you answer me that? What grounds do you have?

Fileboy I think you're seeing only one side of things and then through that ignorance making genralizations that are unfounded. Such gernalizing and creating of assumptions is blatantly against the scientific method itself. You're coming at this with great arrogance that is an embarrasment to the scientific community. What're your credentials anyway?

Above you were saying something about all the atrocities committed by people of religion but I could find just as many or possibly more for those who're nonreligious.
What I'm gettingt at is, essentially people are people no matter the beliefs.


Edited by Stormdragon (01/21/08 06:38 PM)
_________________________
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#366795 - 01/21/08 08:58 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Stormdragon]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
Imagination is more important than knowledge, for knowledge is limited while imagination embraces the entire world.
-- Albert Einstein


A human being is a part of the whole, called by us Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.
-- Albert Einstein

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#366796 - 01/22/08 03:45 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: pathfinder7195]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

...a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.




...and it's the ability to escape from this (as Einstein did) that separates the geniuses from the rest of us.
_________________________
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#366797 - 01/22/08 05:09 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Well, Ed, as far as the prison population goes, the majority, (right around 60%, I believe) is in there for drug related charges. And by that I mean possession or a dealing type charge. Most of these dealers have some code of morality or honor, they were doing it for the money. Then there is the rather large group that committed a crime to fulfill their addictions. Morality doesn't even come into play. I needed it, therefore I did whatever I had to to get it. The majority of your murders, especially your double homicides, are crimes of passion, I believe. If not the majority, than a large majority. Husband came home, caught the wife with the post man, and before he knew it, he'd fired two rounds from his gun and they were both dead. Not a religious or moral thing, just a slip in judgment that one time. Even your gang type murders have the perp claiming a moral imperative based on the code of honor they live by. The point is, whether it was an addiction, the fight for survival, or momentary lapse, religion doesn't play that much into the equation. The prison population is like any ohter, just these people have broken societies laws.

As for how many people have killed in the name of their Thoughforms? Well, the Crusades didn't empty out most of Europe into Palestine. Most of the Muslim world isn't in Iraq or Afghanistan trying to kill American troops in the name of Allah. Yes, there have been religious leaders who have used people's beliefs to incite violence, in an effort to gain more power for themselves. But, they have been the minority, as have been the people who have followed them. Matt pointed to those who do the same thing for money. Usually, that's what's behind any war, resources and power. Even if Religion is the driving force behind that war. I can point to the Crusades for a great example. Jerusalem was the resource. Pilgrimages to Jerusalem were a powerful source of income, so whoever controlled the city, made the money. Several of the treaties signed ending a Crusade left the right of Christians to visit holy sites in Jerusalem intact. Yet the Europeans kept going back.

Religion isn't the only thing to blame for many of the wars fought in human history. There are always many factors involved in why wars are fought.

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#366798 - 01/22/08 09:50 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
did you know that 80% of all percentage figures given on a forum are made-up and the other 20% are guesses?

btw, I agree with you here:
Quote:

There are always many factors involved in why wars are fought.



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#366799 - 01/24/08 04:53 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Quote:

They even admit that someone calling themself an atheist is an excuse to live without any sort of moral rules.





I actually take great offense to this statement. I'm an atheist and i happen to hold myself to a very high moral standard. I put my self and my personal needs last after my family, my friends and my country. I've been separated from my family for more than a year straight (this time) and have another year to go. In 5.5 years of deployments i spent less than 18 months at home and never for more than a month straight. Even with all the time i've been separated from my wife and with all the temptations there are (if you have ever seen the women in Australia and Greece you know what i'm talking about) i have never cheated or even come close. I became military police in order to uphold good order and discipline and to hold our military to a higher moral standard.

The inability to "prove" or explain an incident using current scientific methods doesn't mean it's a "supernatural". It just means we don't have the means to fully understand it...yet. The technology we have today would be thought of as supernatural 200 years ago.

I'm not an atheist because i want to feel justified in doing bad things. It's because i'm not one to simply believe what i'm handed, i'm not one for blind faith. I take responsibility for my actions good and bad. I don't think badly of anyone for their religious beliefs and only expect the same respect.

Trust me there is such a thing as an atheist in a fox hole.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#366800 - 01/24/08 05:35 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: laf7773]
Ed_Morris Offline
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I 'admit' to being a Secular Humanist. Isn't this healthy...all of us 'coming out' like this. lol

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#366801 - 01/24/08 01:51 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Ed_Morris]
laf7773 Offline
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Posts: 4064
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"coming out" isn't exactly the term i would use.
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#366802 - 01/24/08 02:11 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: laf7773]
Ed_Morris Offline
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I used that terminology to pi$$-off the religious right.

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#366803 - 01/25/08 05:18 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Lane, you are still not someone I would claim to know "personally". We communicate via internet, and I believe you are Navy MP, but I've never met you personally. If you wish to claim that you are an atheist, by all means, go ahead. You live by a moral code, despite not believing in a higher authority, that's fine. However, my experience with atheists has been "I don't believe in God, so I snort a line, go out and have five drinks, and sleep with as many people in one night I can". My experience with Secular Humanists has been agnosticism with the belief that each individual is responsible for bettering mankind. You strike me as the type to have at least read part of the Bible for the sake of understanding what it's really about. Maybe you've eschewed faith yourself, but I don't see you on this forum ragging on others for having faith.

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#366804 - 01/25/08 07:18 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

I 'admit' to being a Secular Humanist.




...all this while I thought you were a Circular Humorist

Looks like this thread is in great danger of straying into dangerous territory.
_________________________
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#366805 - 01/25/08 07:45 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Ed_Morris Offline
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not raging, but I admit the devil in me likes to tick anybody off who takes themselves and their beliefs too seriously. Then again, the same could be said about non-beliefs.

I've read "a" bible (wasn't sure which version 'the' bible is) - I found it too violent, so I switched to reading Shakespeare.

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#366806 - 01/25/08 04:33 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Stormdragon]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Loc: Chicago, IL
Stormdragon,

It is idoitic that I or anyone else should need to justify disbelief in the supernatural. This is 2007, not 1007!

If you feel I lack credentials, fine. The National Academy of Sciences (US), or the Royal Society (UK), or any other scientific organization on the face of the earth will give you a similar (albeit more polite) assessment.

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#366807 - 01/25/08 07:52 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: fileboy2002]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
“If we find the answer [the unified theory], it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason -- for we would know the mind of God."”
Stephen Hawking

“The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired.”
Stephen Hawking

Not only does God play dice, but... he sometimes throws them where they cannot be seen.
Stephen Hawking

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#366808 - 01/25/08 08:43 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: fileboy2002]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
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Oops, I forgot... his credentials...

Professor Hawking has twelve honorary degrees, was awarded the CBE in 1982, and was made a Companion of Honour in 1989. He is the recipient of many awards, medals and prizes and is a Fellow of The Royal Society and a Member of the US National Academy of Sciences.


You were right about the more polite part.

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#366809 - 01/25/08 08:56 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: oldman]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Loc: Chicago, IL
I know who Stephen Hawking is. Did you know he is also an atheist? Like most atheists in our religiously saturated culture, he uses phrases like "the mind of God" figuratively.

Your quoting him out of context the way you do is pure deception; I may be rude, but I am not a liar.

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#366810 - 01/25/08 09:30 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: fileboy2002]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

Did you know he is also an atheist?




Nope. I did not know that. You see the only "context" was a list of 10 quotes. I chose 3 of ten. I could have chosen...

Quote:

“We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special.”




But lets face it. If I would have put that quote up you wouldn't get a chance to pop a [censored] and go off on the Amish.

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#366811 - 01/26/08 12:56 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: oldman]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Posts: 6772
Tricky business For Hawkins, Einstein, et al - it's a sortof political correctness for scientists to put things in terms of God, then let others guess which 'God' they are refering to (or wish to interpret as). - but regardless of their personal beliefs (or non-beliefs), you never see their mathematical equations geered for solving theological unknowns. it's infinity divided by zero.

infinity and a zero denominator are...thoughtforms.


So how about this as a working definition for the thread in order to please everyone...

Thoughtform:
An image or images held in the mind of a practitioner which aids in the manifestation of intent.

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#366812 - 01/26/08 02:10 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: fileboy2002]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Fileboy,
Not knowing or being aware of Hawkings position I took the words at face value and quoted them. So what do I get? you call me a liar. "pure deception"? Seems a little harsh. You could have just called stupid. Thats fine. Do keep one thing in mind. I did quote him and credit him.

Earlier in the thread you shared your opinion...

Quote:

And here is the truth about morality: Good people are inclined to good, and evil people inclined to evil. It is only when you want a good person to do evil that you need religion




I guess if it's fair for you to call me a liar for not knowing Hawking's positions it's reasonable for me to refer you a plagarist for not crediting Dawkins...

Quote:

"Without religion, you would have good people doing good things, and evil people doing evil things. But to get good people to do evil things, you need religion."




No biggie. You probably just forgot.

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#366813 - 01/26/08 02:52 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: oldman]
Ed_Morris Offline
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LOL...bagged him.

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#366814 - 01/26/08 07:39 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Loc: POM, Monterey CA
I gotta add the corallory of good people doing evil things. To keep the evil men at bay, you gotta scare the hell out of them, and to do that, you probably need religion.

My personal belief is that it doesn't matter which, just that you make people fear the consequences of what they do.

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#366815 - 01/26/08 08:25 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

My personal belief is that it doesn't matter which, just that you make people fear the consequences of what they do.




...which reminds me of the following quote which I AM crediting to GORE VIDAL:-

"I am all for bringing back the birch, but only between consenting adults"
_________________________
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#366816 - 01/26/08 09:59 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I know who Stephen Hawking is. Did you know he is also an atheist?




Would you like to prove that?





Like most atheists in our religiously saturated culture, he uses phrases like "the mind of God" figuratively.

Your quoting him out of context the way you do is pure deception; I may be rude, but I am not a liar.




S.W.Hawking@damtp.cam.ac.uk

Here is Stephen Hawkins e mail address. Might I suggest
asking him what he thinks?

I like the guys works. Still reading some of it.

From my studies I tend to read that a lot people in the scientific community believe a God exists.

I think religion might only be certain human's intepretation's.

Ed
Quote:

LOL...bagged him.




I think so to.

Oldman.
Quote:


We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special





Dont think we were ever monkeys.According to science its said that humans, apes and monkeys had common ancestors

If genetics did get mixed up later down the line then it wouldnt matter, those types more than likely might go in to politics any how ..



Jude


Edited by jude33 (01/26/08 10:27 AM)

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#366817 - 01/26/08 10:57 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Said to be a quote on a website from Stephen Hawkins.

"I do not believe in a personal God"

Just an after thought. If this was on the website or simular websites or even newspaper articles that File boy is refering to then assumption as I stated on the safety/ pressure points thread might/could be at work again.

From what I can gather stating "I do not believe in a personal God" doesnt mean a person doesnt believe a God exists or even God doesnt exist. It means they doubt a personal God might not exist. The key word (to my mind) is Personal.

A few examples being;
Given the knowledge of science which sometimes can be violant and the fact that prey and preditor, illnes, war famine etc exist,
would lead to the fact that a personal God might be doubted.


If this is so then perhaps cut and paste, reading with out analyzing data and giving little thought to something, isnt a very good trait to have for a person who is meant to be teaching others.

If this is the case( and it might not be I am after all a student and entitled to get it wrong)
then dont worry Fileboy. You could have read someone elses(wrong) assumption, and perhaps copied it.

But at least they had the thoughts (even if they were wrong thoughts) to assume wrongly.

Just speculation on my part.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (01/26/08 11:25 AM)

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#366818 - 01/26/08 11:46 AM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


From what I can gather stating "I do not believe in a personal God" doesnt mean a person doesnt believe a God exists or even God doesnt exist. It means they doubt a personal God might not exist. The key word (to my mind) is Personal.






I had best clarify this. I have been reading to much about
politics, religion and science and what would seem to be fileboy contradicting his self.

Ok with a clearer mind.


Statement "I do not believe in a personal God"

From what I can gather.
The key word is personal.
A person can believe in a God and can still state I do not believe in a personal God.
The two "God and "Personal God" seem to have different meaning.

Fileboy
Quote:


Like most atheists in our religiously saturated culture, he uses phrases like "the mind of God" figuratively.




Not if he believes in a God but not a personal God.
If he believes in a God then he wouldnt be an atheist.
Therefore he can use the phrase " the mind of God" (and other related phrases) in its/their correct context
Quote:


Your quoting him out of context the way you do is pure deception; I may be rude, but I am not a liar.




If I am correct then it could be said your not thinking/ applying logic/ not reading the information correctly/ making assumptions.

If I am not then I am still a student.

As I said to clarify the matter and to see if I am correct
you could always e-mail him.

I think from what I have read he believes in a God or that one might exist but he doesnt believe in a personal God.

All please exscuse the long winded approach to this matter.
If I am correct it would seem then that paid writers have wrongly used this sentence for their own means.

http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/actualism/peter/selected-correspondence/corr-hawking.htm

Jude





Edited by jude33 (01/26/08 12:13 PM)

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#366819 - 01/26/08 02:40 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: oldman]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
"Without religion, you would have good people doing good things, and evil people doing evil things. But to get good people to do evil things, you need religion."

Actually, that quote is not originally Dawkins'. He was paraphrasing Christopher Hitchens, who in turn was paraphrasing someone else (I do not recall who at the moment).

In other words, I did not plagerize anything. I was passing on a metaphor that had already been in widespread use for a long time. There is nothing dishonest about that.

I am willing to believe you were unaware Hawking was a nonbeliever. What I do not understand is why, not knowing much about him, you chose to cite him as support for your views.

Hawking made an interesting observation about a hypothetical God when he wrote, "One does not have to appeal to God to set the initial conditions for the creation of the universe, but if one does He would have to act through the laws of physics." [Stephen Hawking, Black Holes & Baby Universes]

This brings me back to what I was saying originally. I did not criticize God in particular, but belief in the supernatural more generally. The word "supernatural" means beyond or above nature. Supernatural forces by nature defy the laws of the universe, which makes them extremely doubtful.

Of course, it is always possible natural laws exist which we have yet to discover. However, some of the claims made in MA circles--about chi, thoughforms, etc--violate natural laws we HAVE discovered and understand fairly well.

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#366820 - 01/26/08 03:23 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: fileboy2002]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

I am willing to believe you were unaware Hawking was a nonbeliever. What I do not understand is why, not knowing much about him, you chose to cite him as support for your views.




Either yesterday or the day before I visited www.digg.com. One of the articles was a a compilation of Hawkings quotes. There was also a very fetching portrait of him sculpted in LEGO'S. I simply stumbled upon it. I found it interesting and looked at a few more Hawking related posts.

When you posted about the two scientific organizations I realised Hawking was a member of both. I chuckled at the intersection of time, energy and chance.

Also, for claritys sake I did not use Hawkings quote to support my views. I believed I was using his words to support his views.

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#366821 - 01/26/08 05:08 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

"

Without religion, you would have good people doing good things, and evil people doing evil things. But to get good people to do evil things, you need religion."

Actually, that quote is not originally Dawkins'. He was paraphrasing Christopher Hitchens, who in turn was paraphrasing someone else (I do not recall who at the moment).





Well I am not paraphrasing anybody but the above statement doesnt make sense.

Do you agree or disagree with it?
Care to explain it?



Quote:


In other words, I did not plagerize anything. I was passing on a metaphor that had already been in widespread use for a long time. There is nothing dishonest about that.







Have you ever given your opinion on anything?
Quote:


I am willing to believe you were unaware Hawking was a nonbeliever.




I am unwilling to believe you have even considered asking him. From what I can gather he does answer his emails.

So on what basis do you state that he doesnt believe?


.
Quote:


What I do not understand is why, not knowing much about him, you chose to cite him as support for your views.




What I do not understand is on what basis are your views? I dont think you have given any basis.
Please inform us.
Quote:


Hawking made an interesting observation about a hypothetical God when he wrote, "One does not have to appeal to God to set the initial conditions for the creation of the universe, but if one does He would have to act through the laws of physics." [Stephen Hawking, Black Holes & Baby Universes]






The creation of the universe is still considered a guess.
Or were you present?

Quote:



This brings me back to what I was saying originally. I did not criticize God in particular, but belief in the supernatural more generally.




Fileboy could you do some reading. Do you mean A God or a personal God that you didint criticise?





The word "supernatural" means beyond or above nature. Supernatural forces by nature defy the laws of the universe, which makes them extremely doubtful.

Of course, it is always possible natural laws exist which we have yet to discover. However, some of the claims made in MA circles--about chi, thoughforms, etc--violate natural laws we HAVE discovered and understand fairly well.




So are you calling some religion's super natural?
Or did I misunderstand your elusive way of stating things? Please clarify?

I think your trying to get out of the argument. I have given you his email address so how about you e mail him and ask him, then post your findings.

It was stated somewhere else on the forum that it would seem your attempting to be something your not.

I have realy tried to make it easy for you. I have given you the e mail address. Do you need the website as well?
I am not sure how else I can realy help you!!

Are we back on the chi thing?
Wrong thread perhaps?

Jude.


Edited by jude33 (01/26/08 05:22 PM)

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#366822 - 01/26/08 06:07 PM Re: Thoughtforms-maybe this board is right? [Re: jude33]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
jude33,

I am not sure what good it does to speak to you because you don't read very thoroughly and seem to misunderstand most of what you do read. But I'll give it one last shot.

1)"Well I am not paraphrasing anybody but the above statement doesnt make sense.

Do you agree or disagree with it?
Care to explain it?"

I am not surprised you did not understand this because it was not addressed to you; I was responding to a post by oldman. Please read more carefully next time. In any case, oldman thought I had lifted a quote from Richard Dawkins w/o crediting him for it. I pointed out it was a paraphrase, not a quote, and that it did not originate with Dawkins.

2) "Have you ever given your opinion on anything?"

All the time. If you don't know that, you either do not know what an "opinion" is or cannot read English properly.

3)"What I do not understand is on what basis are your views? I dont think you have given any basis."

Again, you are confused because I was not talking to you this time. In any case, you're response was a non-sequitor, a Latin term meaning "does not follow." It had nothing to do with anyhting I said.

4)"I am unwilling to believe you have even considered asking him. From what I can gather he does answer his emails.

So on what basis do you state that he doesnt believe?"

Here you are attacking my claim that Hawking is an atheist. Your logic seems to be since he does not answer letters (which would be cumbersome for anyone suffering from ALS), I could not possibly know what he thinks. But you forgot something: Hawking writes books, and I read books. That is how I know he is an atheist. If reading a whole book is too hard for you, just plug ther words "Hawking" and "atheism" into Google and see for yourself--he is an atheist.

5)"The creation of the universe is still considered a guess.
Or were you present?"

This is beyond ignorance. The creation of the universe is not a guess and has not been for generations. The Big Bang theory is widely accepted by scientists and has passed multiple tests that could have falsified it but didn't. Everyone in the US with a high school education knows about the Big Bang theory--why don't you?

6)"Fileboy could you do some reading. Do you mean A God or a personal God that you didint criticise?"

A guy who has never heard of the Bing Bang theory says I need to read more? What a joke!Jude33, are you by some chance a teenager or soemthing? I am beginning to suspect it. No one can live to adulthood knowing so little.

Of course when I spoke of God I meant God as represented by the world's organized religions. How could I know anything about a "personal" god that someone invented on their own?

After that bit you go on and ask me things that in no way relate to anything I said, like whether I believed some religions were supernatural. I said i do not believe in the supernatural, so this makes no sense.

Look, this is the longest and last response you will ever get from me. I now firmly beleive I am talking to a young person with limited English who is really not qualified to discuss serious topics with adults. Say what you like, but I am not wasting any more time on you.

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#366823 - 01/26/08 07:26 PM PLEASE SETTLE DOWN & PLAY NICELY [Re: fileboy2002]
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
Ok guys this is a warning shot from me.

Please refrain from starting a flame war and/or namecalling situation. I do not want a discussion of politics or religion taking this thread to the next stage which is a lockdown.

The thread is starting to look like it may cause WW3 so you have all been warned!

pull your heads in
_________________________
Allow me to acquaint you with my friends Mr Jab and Mr Cross...

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#366824 - 01/26/08 08:39 PM Re: PLEASE SETTLE DOWN & PLAY NICELY [Re: Reiki]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Thanks for the warning, but this thread is dead as far as i am concerned.

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#366825 - 01/26/08 10:58 PM Re: PLEASE SETTLE DOWN & PLAY NICELY [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Thanks for the warning, but this thread is dead as far as i am concerned.




Fine by me. Dont worry be happy. Chi exists.

Jude



Edited by jude33 (01/26/08 10:59 PM)

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#366826 - 01/28/08 12:32 AM Re: PLEASE SETTLE DOWN & PLAY NICELY [Re: fileboy2002]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
fileboy maybe you should get your facts straight before spouting off about other peoples beliefs...

Quote:

Now, lest anyone be confused, let me state that Hawking strenuously denies charges that he is an atheist. When he is accused of that he really gets angry and says that such assertions are not true at all. He is an agnostic or deist or something more along those lines. He's certainly not an atheist and not even very sympathetic to atheism.



http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9501/bigbang2.html

bushi

You can't lump everyone together and profile them. What about all the so called Christians who beat their spouses, do drugs, molest children and commit murder? What about all the preachers who molest children? I've seen countless "Christians" who do unspeakable deeds only to beg their god for forgiveness or in some cases blame their god for giving up on them. I don't judge people based on their beliefs or disbeliefs, i prefer to look at their actions. I've known many people who have spent their lives for others, both believers and non believers and i have come across some foul people in my day both believers and non. I don't push my beliefs on others and expect the same respect. I don't chastise people for their beliefs and again expect the same respect. I've looked at several religions just so i can have an understanding of what they are about. My wife and i are both atheist but we have no intentions of forcing our beliefs on our children. We teach our kids about a variety of religions, their similarities and differences and what we believe. It's our intention to let them decide how they want to live. I personally don't feel the need to thank a "higher power" for what I have worked hard for or blame them for the things that are wrong in the world. I'm responsible for my actions.

I don't think any less or more of people based on their beliefs. I give each individual their own opportunity to show me what kind of person they are. If people choose to look down on me for being an atheist then they are just showing their ignorance.

Just for the record i don't live by any "code". I don't have any set of guidelines or rules that i stick to. Every situation is different with me and i treat it as such.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#366827 - 01/28/08 06:44 AM Re: PLEASE SETTLE DOWN & PLAY NICELY [Re: laf7773]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Lane, I'm going to say the same thing I said in the "Some cops are idiots" thread. In every group of people you have the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. Let us not forget that the KKK interprets the Bible in a way that they can justify their racist beliefs. But then again, you have personages such as Mother Theresa or Billy Graham who were wholeheartedly dedicated to what they believe in, and spent their entire lives working for that belief. And you would be the first person I've ever communicated with who claims to be an atheist for no other reason than you just don't believe in any god or afterlife.

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#366828 - 01/28/08 07:27 AM Re: PLEASE SETTLE DOWN & PLAY NICELY [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
"...you would be the first person I've ever communicated with who claims to be an atheist for no other reason than you just don't believe in any god or afterlife"

"...claims?..." So you do not believe he does not believe in god or the afterlife.


I have seen flowers come in stony places,
And kind things done by men with ugly faces,
And the gold cup won by the worst horse at the races.

John Masefield.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#366829 - 01/28/08 07:48 AM Re: thoughtforms or forms of thought? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I believe that there are unknowns - the 'afterlife' concept being one of them. if you want to use the word 'God', thats fine with me...just don't kill me over it in order to prove your point.

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#366830 - 01/28/08 03:57 PM Re: thoughtforms or forms of thought? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Ed, I agree.

BP, no, that's not what I'm saying.

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#366831 - 01/29/08 05:51 PM Re: thoughtforms or forms of thought? [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I believe that there are unknowns - the 'afterlife' concept being one of them. if you want to use the word 'God', thats fine with me...just don't kill me over it in order to prove your point.




Ed,
As a Christian I am going to have to hubnt you down and lynch you because you don't believe the exact same way I do.

I'm kidding. Unfortunately, some christians have forgotten about Love, brotherly love. Too much judgement and superiority complexes,sadly.

All I have to say to aethiest is , better hope you are right.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#366832 - 01/30/08 12:33 AM Re: thoughtforms or forms of thought? [Re: BrianS]
laf7773 Offline
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Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I'm actually hoping i'm wrong. I'm sure it would be easier to forgive me for not believing while still doing the right thing than believing and doing all the wrong things. That aside i would hate to see all the wars and killing over religious beliefs in the world be for absolutely nothing if i was right. I'd rather be wrong, if that makes any sense.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#366833 - 01/30/08 07:31 AM Re: thoughtforms or forms of thought? [Re: laf7773]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Yep, if we puny humans can forgive and forget, I am sure God can too.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#366834 - 01/30/08 08:31 AM Re: thoughtforms or forms of thought? [Re: laf7773]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



That aside i would hate to see all the wars and killing over religious beliefs in the world be for absolutely nothing if i was right. I'd rather be wrong, if that makes any sense.



From my studies if it wasnt over religious beliefs it would be over something else.
According to science we are hunter gatherer's although most people dont do the first part its still in our genes.

Attempts at dominance is in most humans, in the main all they need is an exscuse.

Human nature can go from one extreme to the other.

Jude

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#366835 - 02/01/08 11:57 AM Re: thoughtforms or forms of thought? [Re: jude33]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
While we'd like to think that wars are fought over dominance or religious differences, most of them are fought over material gain. While the historians usually mischaracterize them as "ethnic cleansings" or some other such trash, wars are usually fought for natural resources, territorial advantage, or simply "more land". They are normally egotistical in nature, and while the historians look for "just causes", they seldom analyze the true reasons for them.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#366836 - 02/01/08 12:51 PM Re: thoughtforms or forms of thought? [Re: wristtwister]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Basically what I said.

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#366837 - 02/01/08 09:57 PM Re: thoughtforms or forms of thought? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I would disagree a bit with that... you stated that there was a profit motive for the Crusades, but my point was more that all wars are mischaracterized by history. Japan, for instance, didn't bomb Pearl Harbor because of it's differences with Washington's policies... it was done because the U.S. cut off oil and steel shipments to them, and being a traditional nation of traders, have no natural resources of their own to fall back on. The action was designed to prompt other nations to "pick up the slack" and trade those items with Japan... esentially, a threat to nations who refused. American steel companies were having their heads handed to them by the Japanese steel companies, so they cut them off. The rest is history... sort of ...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#366838 - 02/01/08 10:19 PM Re: thoughtforms or forms of thought? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
while that is true, it is not their reason for starting the pacific war. They saw an opportunity to do a 'one strike kill' so to speak, in order to weaken and/or remove the growing American presense in the pacific. remember, the grand scheme for Japan's whole reason for war in the first place was to assimilate the near east, install puppet governments and effectively create slave asian nations. They didn't want others interferring with their plans. btw, alot of people don't realize many many many English, Canadian and Australians did most of the fighting in the pacific war prior to 1943.


attacking pearl harbor didn't get them oil, it bought them time. one huge mistake though: they didn't get our aircraft carriers. as it so happened, and as luck would have it, ALL aircraft carriers were on mission and not in the harbor that day.

years LATER in the war, yes, the American strategy was to strangle Japan of it's resources and lessen it's ability to wage war.

I'd say you can't really get much more off topic than this. someone could start a WW2 history thread if they want.

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#366839 - 02/01/08 10:43 PM Re: thoughtforms or forms of thought? [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

I would disagree a bit with that... you stated that there was a profit motive for the Crusades, but my point was more that all wars are mischaracterized by history.




That was my point, Ed...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#366840 - 02/01/08 10:50 PM Re: thoughtforms or forms of thought? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
oops...my mistake. gomen nasai, ne.

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#366841 - 02/01/08 11:12 PM Re: thoughtforms or forms of thought? [Re: Ed_Morris]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:


I'd say you can't really get much more off topic than this.




Actually Ed your post may be the only one that even hints at the original idea which was about Golems. If one understands the legend of the Golem you can see how it relates to your comment.

Quote:

puppet governments and effectively create slave asian nations.




Golems in Jewish legend are created beings. They were being or figure fashioned of clay ( or robots)in modern myths. Those creatures had no choice but to serve, protect and do the bidding of those that created them. The Golem "lived as long as it did the bidding of it's creator and could be retuned to dust after it's task was done or when it's maker saw fit to dismantle it. The Golem did not act by free will but under compulsion of those that controlled it. In addition that the Golem had very little power of discernment ,could not access the intellect or gain wisdom.

The wisdom that is contained in the ancient legend of the Golem or the lack of it is reflected in many posts on this thread.

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#366842 - 02/02/08 12:53 AM Re: thoughtforms or forms of thought? [Re: oldman]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Ed, we could start entire history threads about any single war and why it was fought. It is true that a recurring theme was both sides swearing that god was on their side. Another recurring theme is the fact that some sort of resource was involved. And as far as the topic goes, it has evolved. What has the various thoughtforms human kind invented brought about. War is among them. Utilizing religious beliefs is old hat when it comes to motivating your people to fight. But, there has also been much good wrought by those who have strong faith. Religion is yet another two edged sword mankind has.

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#366843 - 02/02/08 01:17 AM Re: thoughtforms or forms of thought? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I think there is another way. maybe someday...not in our lifetime though.

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#366844 - 02/02/08 01:24 AM Re: thoughtforms or forms of thought? [Re: oldman]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
A multi-layered thought that's entering the philosophical. Mark. you are a step ahead of me. Can you elaborate more...

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#366845 - 02/03/08 12:09 AM Re: thoughtforms or forms of thought? [Re: oldman]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
thought about it more: you are refering to dualism.

basically the lessons of 'Frankenstein'. creating something in your own image for your own bidding, losing contol of it, and it destroying you in the end.

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#366846 - 02/03/08 05:39 PM Re: thoughtforms or forms of thought? [Re: Ed_Morris]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Ed,
I didn't think of the legend it terms of dualism. Because of recent time limitations my contributions here will most likely end up being drive bys.
_________________________
www.prairiemartialarts.com

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#366847 - 02/03/08 08:10 PM Re: thoughtforms or forms of thought? [Re: oldman]
Vennificus Offline
Member

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 206
Loc: The frozen realms of Kah-Nah-D...
It is our sole instinct to survive at any cost. To prove ourselves superior, that we may survive, at any cost. The ultimate goal of all creatures is to become the most sucsessful, the most superior over all others. It is why we kill, why we lie, why we tell tales, argue, and by our own human intelligence why we can sometimes throw ourselves willing into death to save others. Humans are only now starting to become sucsessful as a whole, not as individuals.

The golem was our slave, our attempt to be superior with no equillibrium, no cost, We suffered for it. In the legend of the golem, by erasing the first letter of Emet(truth) which was written on the golem's forehead, thus spelling met(death) and killing the golem.

There Is always equillibrium, there is never an easy way.

Oh my, I've gotten off topic

As for the concept itself, I have my own reasons to beleive it is entirely possible to make something out of pure will. The problem is that our own will is so bogged down with law, it is seldom, if ever pure.
_________________________
Livestrong Johnnyboxcutter!!

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