I thought I would ask on this forum how other Krav Maga schools around the world operate.

I've been a member of the local Krav Maga school for about a year and a half. At every turn I am getting tagged for more money for special seminars, asked to buy more clothing, extended class training, etc.

The instructors are constantly informing us that what we learn in regular KM class is not enough and we need to attend all the various weekly seminars that they offer and all of these seminars are not cheap. We are talking $$$$.

I'm just a guy that is looking to stay in shape and maybe learn something practical. I'm not about turning myself into a killing machine. I've got a life apart from KM that the instructors don't seem to appreciate.

The classes have become so full that students are often asked to share equipment or take their turn to practice a maneuver which I find unacceptable as it seems every students has to pay in full to participate half the time in class.

Forget about trying to cancel the bullet-proof contract they make you sign.

It seems KM, at least in my city, has turned into a fast-food self-defense system, catering to the lowest common denominator.

How does it work for everyone else?

You are right on the money (no pun intended).

What you describe is the the pure essence of the "McDojo" phenomina which so many loathe & too many suffer. Escape by every means possible and request in writing they release you from your contract... Looked briefly for the thread link re: to how to break a McDojo contract but could not find it (yet).

J

It doesn't have as much to do with Krav as it does the school. Not all schools operate that way. You shouldn't have to pay for training that is supposed to be included in your monthly tuition. What you pay for the program Monthly should cover all your training. Seminars are an extra activity but they usually cover more than just Krav stuff, which makes them worth the added cost. By no means should they be a requirement to your Krav training. If there are any other Krav locations near by, I would check them out.

Brokennose

Nope, that is stuff that needs to be addressed--its not normal nor should be acceptable.

A growing school sometime has "growing pains" but those problems should be addressed with the members.

You didn't sign a contract did you????

I signed the contract and I asked about getting it canceled and they said "NO!"

Ok, I did go to an intro class, I am an adult, and I signed on the dotted line. On the first day it felt like a good thing. However, they did not let me know of the extra seminars that are REQUIRED if I am to progress to the next level. These are extra seminars that cost $$$.

There isn't a day when one of the instructors isn't pushing clothes, a seminar or getting people to sign up for more time. It would seem to me that a good school would have people extending their time automatically.

And yes, I do realize that it is a business and the instructors are there to make money and a living, so who ends up winning and losing here.

Ok, can I vent about one more thing?

I've seen the Human Weapon on television and the Krav Maga they show does not resemble the Krav Maga I am shown. The Krav Maga I see on You Tube does not resemble the Krav Maga I am shown.

Shouldn't all versions of Krav Maga be the same?

One more thing:

Is Krav Maga the ONLY proven self-defense system in the world, as I am often told?

Maybe I am just upset at the thought I having to go to a school where I don't want to be. Sorry about the vent.

I think you have a lot of misconceptions and hopefully I can help you clear some things up.

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I signed the contract and I asked about getting it canceled and they said "NO!"

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All I can say there is lesson learned. No contracts! Ever!

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Ok, I did go to an intro class, I am an adult, and I signed on the dotted line. On the first day it felt like a good thing. However, they did not let me know of the extra seminars that are REQUIRED if I am to progress to the next level. These are extra seminars that cost $$$.

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Ofcourse, they sold you, plain and simple.

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There isn't a day when one of the instructors isn't pushing clothes, a seminar or getting people to sign up for more time. It would seem to me that a good school would have people extending their time automatically

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Makes sense to me too.

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I've seen the Human Weapon on television and the Krav Maga they show does not resemble the Krav Maga I am shown. The Krav Maga I see on You Tube does not resemble the Krav Maga I am shown.

Shouldn't all versions of Krav Maga be the same?

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No. Not all goju karate resembles the same,not all tkd resembles the same, etc...
It's all dependant on the school and how they teach. The name means little anymore.

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One more thing:

Is Krav Maga the ONLY proven self-defense system in the world, as I am often told?

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Proven? Not every school has proven their effectiveness. I think all arts started out 'proven' in some way or another. Today is a different story.

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Maybe I am just upset at the thought I having to go to a school where I don't want to be. Sorry about the vent.

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I'd be upset too after being taken for a ride.

You have some options.

1. You know you are basically being railroaded to get promotions.
2. You know they conned you into a contract.
3. You know you don't want to be there.

Stick it out and don't give them anymore money than you absolutely have to. Forget about their seminar scams and your rank. Just take as much away from it as you can.
Then when you are done with them, be done with them for good. Get the word out on what they are all about. Do you have a link to the school's website?

Then when you are ready, look around for somewhere else to train. Be openminded and do a lot of research before stepping into anything else.

Good luck.

Wow, I read the thread on canceling a contract and there are some really freaky things to do. Geez, i don't know if I have the guts to do all those things. They do make me wear Krav Maga clothes and I can't participate in class unless I wear a Krav Maga shirt. There's been a bunch of times where someone new is signing up when I have wanted to stop them and fill them in on everything they don't tell you about.

You know, they won't allow people to audit the class without participating in it. They make you leave because of some law enforcement rules, suggesting that what they teach can be used against law enforcement.

I want to post a link to their website, but I'm not sure what kind of trouble it could get me if someone from that school monitors or reads this forum. I'd like all of you to see the bio on the instructors and notice that none of them have any martial arts background, except for the founder. Most, if not all the instructors, are self-certified to some extent.

Hhmm, sounds like a bad situation and sorry to hear that. If possible can you post the contract and ensure the names, identities are cleared? I don't think there is a problem with posting their website for discussion.

Also, you can email Krav Maga HQ and get feedback from them.

Depending on what the contract states, I would take some of the suggestions mentioned in this thread. I would be really surprised if the contract states you have to wear Krav Maga attire during class. Again, seeing the contract will help and it will let you know what you can do without violating the contract.

I believe you weren't concerned with being a Super fighter, and just want to keep in shape and learn Self Defense. You can do that without attending the "seminars". Unfortunately, you won't progress in rank if that is their requirement. It is sad that there are some rogue schools out there and even though they are affiliated with KMAA they can still do what the wish, to an extent.

I was caught up in a similar situation once and was able to get out of it by simply telling them I was moving out of the area. I let them know I was moving approx 60 miles away and that the commute would be impossible for me to make given my situation. Don't know if that would work for you but I was able to make it work for me.

Good luck with your situation. If all else fails, Brians input is where I would go. Stick it out if you can not escape and simply give them nothing more than the bare minimum, disregarding anything (seminars, etc) that deals with rank.

Scottie

Hey, sorry to hear your situation. Definitely not all KM schools are like the bad experience you've described. One KM school I attended did require KM "official" clothing but then didn't strictly enforce the rule.

What length of time did you sign a contract for six months, a year?

VXM

I have heard similar complaints about Krav Maga several times.

It seems Krav Maga is a victim of its own sudden popularity. A few years ago, it burst forth as the trendy new thing on the MA scene. This created ample opportunties for price gauging and other abuses.

Hey Broken-Nose-Newbie-- you are having a bad KM trip! If you are in NY Long Island area, I strongly urge you to train where I do in Hicksville (KMLI). My membership costs me around 120 per month and I can train as often as I like. The only 'required' uniform is a KM t-shirt OR (if you haven't done a wash!) a black t-shirt. Otherwise, we wear what we wear. There's no push to buy anything (though there is plenty of cool stuff in the pro-shop area), and members get big discounts on specialty seminars (gun, knife, what have you). There's no charge for belt tests, so no upselling there. Plus I can take the 8 grappling classes per month for free as part of my membership! If I wanted, I could train 3 hours per day 6 days per week on my plan. Anyway, not all schools are like the one you are describing. Good luck!

revitup, your school sounds great.

“Student agrees to follow school rules as promulgated from time to time.” That’s what it says on the contract. My attorney tells me that this means I am screwed. They can do anything they want and I am supposed to like it. I’d like to say more about the contract but this school has strict rules on broadcasting any info on them that is not approved by them and frankly, their attorney is bigger than my attorney.

Anyway, I finally had it and walked out of class. It was extremely full and some students were three to a heavy bag. I’ve been in many world class gyms and dojos and I’ve never had to go through a bag class where you only get to use the bag one third of the time. I’ve been a member of some great schools and this is not said to say that I am some kind of bad ass, but to say that I’ve seen how great schools go about teaching.

So, I spoke to representative of the school and I was told that it was extremely disrespectful to him, the school, the owners and the tradition of Krav Maga to just walk out of class. I apologized and the rep accepted. Truthfully, I have some regrets about the apology but I did it.

The rep said that KM was growing by leaps and bounds and soon everyone I met would either know someone studying KM or be skilled in KM. The rep stated that their school was saving lives throughout the metroplex and that I was lucky to be in on the ground floor of such a great movement.

Finally, we talked money and my unhappiness at how classes are taught and filled. The response was that they could not turn anyone away that needed to be trained. They said that I should open my mind to new and innovative ideas. Bottom line, they said, what would I do if I was in their place. No way were they going to cap class limits. Not to compare, but in a gym step class, if more people than steps available show up, they don’t get to participate. They said that maybe I need private lessons at $150 per hour.

Am I wrong in my thinking or is free enterprise getting in my way? Ok, so if they cap class, obviously, they lose money, right? They don't grow. As a student, consumer, I'm looking for top service for top dollar, but does this mean accepting less or different because they are trying to accommodate so many?

You know, am I wrong? If I go to a restaurant, get seated and there are only 20 seats and more people come in, am I being closed minded because I do not want someone else sitting with me at my table?

Just as a note, I have nothing against Krav Maga and its philosophies. I think it is a valid form of self-defense.

There should be a limit to how many students are in a class based on what it can handle. There needs to be the proper ratio of students and equipment. Plus there shouldn't be so many students that it becomes a safety factor or you have students sitting out part of the time. That's poor management. If the classes are to big then they need to add more classes, simple as that. If they don't have room in there schedule to add another class then they need to put a cap on the number of students. They said they can't turn people away who want to learn to defend themselves, but if your sitting out at times or having to share equipment how are you learning anything? Sounds more like they can't turn away the money and they don't want to cap their income.

Brokenose,

If you would like, you can email or pm me. I have had a similiar situation.

Allright....

The return of the Psyoper is complete!!!!

I feel your pain Brokenose. I want though to understand why you think its ok for you to train in a school without the proper uniform? If you understood that the t-shirt is required when you signed up, you should comply. What other schools exsist that allow students to wear whatever they want to class? Not many.

As far as the "required" seminars goes, that is just nonsense. You are being sold a line of b.s. A required training seminar is absolute garbage unless its some type of special certification. Where do you train? What organization do you train under?

I'm about to go to an intro Krav Maga class in a couple of weeks. Its' the LA National Training Center. Does anyone have any experience with this place?

It's the national training center, you should have no problems at all.

oH my god!!!
You are getting ripped off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Big time!!!!!!!!
But it sounds like those guys did their homework on how to make money!!!!!!!!!!! sounds that what they teach really sucks!!!!!!
When you teach or sell quality you do not need to make absurd contracts to make money. When you are honest and sell quality money comes on it's own. This guy sounds like he pressures people into signing.
Get out if you can lie!! Say you are moving to another state!

I think you meant "How they teach really sucks". He didn't mention that the training sucked, (when he could train). I think it's more how they are sucking him in for more money.

Broken nose,
I don't have a dog in this fight, but if I were you, I'd take a copy of that contract to a local district attorney and ask him if they're breaking any laws on intimidation or coercian. Sounds to me like they have an open-ended contract that allows them to change the rules and you're supposed to "fall in line" with whatever they come up with.

Consumer credit laws don't allow a lot of "tricksters" to get by with things they used to be able to do, and you certainly shouldn't have to go to bankruptcy court because these guys think they can just reach in your wallet every time they get another idea. Contracts need to be very specific in whats supplied and who's responsible for payment, and any more, the "extras" probably need to be spelled out as well.

I know if I was getting 1/3 of a class on the bag, I'd tell them I only owed them 1/3 of the payment since I couldn't practice. I'm sure they have you pegged as a troublemaker already, since you bucked up in class and walked out, so you probably won't be getting any specific help in the study of the art.

Seriously, I think I'd look into whether or not they're breaking consumer credit laws with their business, and that should give your lawyer all he needs to get your contract rescinded.

Just a thought.

You sure as hell can post what school it is. That's free speech my friend. As long as everything you are saying is TRUE than it is NOT slander.

What exactly is your problem with KM? Sounds like you have a problem with the school and it's instructors, not KM the style.You can't blame the system because you have unfortunately signed a contract with a McDojo.

Glock,

I don't think he was blaming the system, but in fact the school. At least that has been my take on it.

Yeah, good point. The title is misleading but after reading the thread is seem the problem is the school. Maybe he should change the title if he is still around...

The title is mis leading but he wants to know if other KM schools do this. Anyways you grab your copy of the contract and read everything. Be prepared to go thru a law suit if necessary, I've heard of people to that extreme to get out of a bad contract and get back their hard earned money. But KM isn't the only MA that does this sort of thing.

Another reason never to sign a contract.

My concern about KM is that there are two totally separate tracks, student and instructor.

Students can train for years in Krav and become expert. But, as I understand it, you only become a certified teacher by paying to go through a certification program (three individual levels, each a week long).

Its unlike other systems where the most senior and experienced students become instructors.

At my school, I was being "trained" by instructors who had spent years less time in the program than I had. That took away some of my enthusiasm.

That being said, we still had some good senior instructors as well.

Even though certification and standards are important, its really hard for new instructors to earn the respect of long-time students under that kind of system.

Leadership often means paying your dues (not necessarily in the form of money).

That is the big difference between Krav and Traditional arts. Krav is designed to be learned in a short amount of time. Kinda like "out of the box" if you will..

So, I don't think you can compare a traditional instructor with years to krav instructor. I guess ya can't compare time in service. But that shouldn't take away from their ability to teach. Both have earned the right to instruct.

Just to make sure we all understand, you do not get certified in one week to teach an entire system. You can get certified in one week to teach level 1 classes. You still need to train and learn the system at Instructor training seminars and such. When you are ready to test for level 2 certification you do. The same goes for level 3. It takes a while to get certified to teach the entire system. It is more like three weeks of certification with 100's of hours in between for Instructor training.

Dedicated1 thanks. For the instructors I began under, that was the way it worked and the system itself is great.

However, a little later on things changed when students grew and pressure for more classes increased. Phase A (one-week wonder) instructors were being called on a lot. Morale dropped and a bunch of long-timers left. This may have been temporary, or just an unusual occurrence at one particular place.

Yes this training center did require an initial year-long contract and I was dumb enough to sign up. But I stuck with it for over four years so it seemed to balance out.

I still love the system. In particular all the hours it took to learn it.

Harder and harder to validate and defend a program that by it's own marketing machine has gone down a rock road in pursuit of $$$.

The more people want to be "instructors" and take the course, the more $$$ is involved. Eventually, this will seriously impact the credibility of the training when you are either a new student or an instructor.

wow. it looks like something is very wrong with the school you go to. It shouldn't be all about the tee shirts and new seminars etc. I gave spamming FA.com a try when I got tired of all the live class bullcrap, and have not looked back since. -a month is like 25 bucks on this site, which is the cost of a single class in some places, AND I know i'm being taught by the real deal Ran Nakash was featured last week on Fight Quest.

Well, KMWW does that. They certify instructors in a week, charge for testing, etc. AND it´s not Krav. It´s just MMA. IKMF teches real krav, I suggest you stop paying for KM when they are teaching something else. I´ve done IKMF for 1 year and KMWW for 6 months. The IKMF students on level 1 are better than the KMWW level 5s.

ok, we get the point that you dislike KMWW. Keep it the convo's positive.