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#366365 - 02/24/08 10:09 PM Re: Student wears bullet proof vest to school.... [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
yuanofkienninja Offline
Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 33
Well, obviously I'm no soldier, but it is an interesting mental exercise given the VERY unstable state of affairs in the world today to try and figure out the best way to attempt to defeat things like body armor and helmets with "environmental" weapons. A judiciously applied brick, rock, or staff-like piece of wood used with the three S's in mind (speed, surprise, savagery) would be my best chance and even then the downed soldier's teammates are likely going to turn me into swiss cheese so I'm hopin' all this stays in the realm of mental masturbation. Hope I haven't come off too radical or weird here. Just war-gaming in my head.
_________________________
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#366366 - 02/26/08 10:23 PM Re: Student wears bullet proof vest to school.... [Re: yuanofkienninja]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
The problem we have with this kind of situation today is that we're warning people to be wary of gang activity on one hand, practice self-defense, and then when somebody takes pro-active action, we want to lock them up.

Would I be alarmed if a kid showed up in body armor?... sure... but not because he's in the body armor, I would be alarmed that he felt the need to protect himself in that way... but you can look at the university shootings and see that as long as "perfect storm" situations like that exist, we will have people doing bizarre things to prepare for it... on both sides of the coin. The shooters want to rehearse, and those that are scared out of their wits want to "train to be safe". Determining which ones are which isn't all that easy.

I'm an ex-LEO, and I know how confusing situations like that can get... but the law enforcement community will try to err on the side of safety... even to the point of hanging the innocent if they suspect that someone is "preparing to do something" like the Columbine shootings.

Unfortunately, bizzare behavior is a clue to how someone will act in the future... so this was probably a good move. Whether or not the kid was planning something "desperate" or not, we may never know... but law enforcement has certainly over-reacted if he's being prosecuted for wearing body armor. Weapons on school grounds are a felony in most states, but it's hard to classify body armor as a weapon...

Where he went off the reservation, was when he used the newspaper box as a target and started making explosive devices. Those are not "defensive" in any manner... so the law enforcement people were well withing guidelines to charge him.

Simply owning guns doesn't make anybody a criminal... and even the "unjudicious" use of them sometimes doesn't mean they have criminal intent... but the explosive devices, and reckless destruction of other people's property is the start down the wrong road toward tragedy... even if simply from negligence or inexperience with explosives.

When I was growing up, drugs were very seldom a problem... but in a culture where they are commonplace, someone getting high and doing something stupid with a gun is always a possibility... which is why they ask questions about drug use on the purchase forms. Of course somebody is going to lie if they are using drugs and buying guns, but it's one of the tools of law enforcement to put them off the "clear sales" list to buy a gun.

This kid will end up with a felony record that will follow him all his life. Sure hope he thought it was worth it... if he wanted attention, he got it...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#366367 - 02/26/08 11:15 PM Re: Student wears bullet proof vest to school.... [Re: wristtwister]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Quote:

The problem we have with this kind of situation today is that we're warning people to be wary of gang activity on one hand, practice self-defense, and then when somebody takes pro-active action, we want to lock them up.




Yikes! Where do I start with this? First of all, I don't buy his self protection story and after his other reason for wearing it..."it looked cool", I don't think anyone else does either.

Quote:

Would I be alarmed if a kid showed up in body armor?... sure... but not because he's in the body armor, I would be alarmed that he felt the need to protect himself in that way... but you can look at the university shootings and see that as long as "perfect storm" situations like that exist, we will have people doing bizarre things to prepare for it... on both sides of the coin. The shooters want to rehearse, and those that are scared out of their wits want to "train to be safe". Determining which ones are which isn't all that easy..




As an active duty LEO who teaches Active Shooter response, I can say that in light of recent and current events, a kid showing up wearing a ballistic vest would be justifiably be viewed as an obvious threat as in... what is he planning on doing or what does he know that noone else does about what is going to happen today?

Quote:

I'm an ex-LEO, and I know how confusing situations like that can get... but the law enforcement community will try to err on the side of safety... even to the point of hanging the innocent if they suspect that someone is "preparing to do something" like the Columbine shootings..




It is not reasonable or prudent to dismiss the reality of these threats. The term "Clear and present danger" comes to mind. You cannot say "bomb" in an airport without consequences. That is not considered "over reacting" on the part of the airport cops and TSA when they take "sure and immediate control" of you and see that you are detained and/or prosecuted.

Quote:

Unfortunately, bizzare behavior is a clue to how someone will act in the future... so this was probably a good move. Whether or not the kid was planning something "desperate" or not, we may never know... but law enforcement has certainly over-reacted if he's being prosecuted for wearing body armor. Weapons on school grounds are a felony in most states, but it's hard to classify body armor as a weapon...




If the ballistic vest does not meet the statutory definition of weapon, you can be pretty sure that the vest was not the item that justifies the charge. His can of clear out/ tear gas, even empty, qualifies as a weapon on school grounds especially based on it's capabilities in a crowded school. The can being empty means little more than a gun being empty.
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#366368 - 02/27/08 08:51 AM Re: Student wears bullet proof vest to school.... [Re: Fletch1]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Fletch is correct reference his assertion there was no charge concerning the body armor.

It was merely used as an indication that a crime possibly was going to be committed; thus allowing an officer(s) to conduct an investigation.

Plus, as an aside to what Fletch is asserting, one particular oddity or strange occurrence does not always mean very much, but, when taken in their entirety, all these things added up to a situation where a more complete investigation was warranted.

Just think, there are several indications that something strange is going on and no one initiates an investigation...then something happens.

There is going to be a whole bunch of people second guessing why nothing was done.

K
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Remembering 3655K

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#366369 - 02/28/08 05:53 PM Re: Student wears bullet proof vest to school.... [Re: hunterkell]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
A few years ago in my town, we had a group of kids get busted for plotting a Columbine type incident. It was a group of outcast/ Goth type kids who had all kinds of doom fantasy ideas. One of their little brothers overheard them talking about bringing a bomb to school and shooting people and told the school officials.

A search warrant revealed bomb making plans on their computer harddrive at home and hand drawn schematics of the school. there is more to it but essentially they were convicted on some sort of conspiracy charge and served an extended probation with very little incarceration time.

It made the media circles of course and people came out on both sides of the issue in the comment blogs and letters to the editor. Some felt that the kids should have been locked up forever and others felt that it was blown all out of proportion because "they were just kids, afterall".

Some people were very certain that in spite of everything that was learned after Columbine, that the "rights" of these kids to express themselves without consequences even in this way, was more important than the collective safety of all the other children (afterall, they wouldn't have REALLY done anything. They are just being dumb kids.).

It was an interesting time. Law enforcement doesn't usually get to take credit for preventing tragedy but this time it did. It was pretty obvious that if left unchecked, something horrible probably would have happened. Luckily, people paid attention and realized that "probably" can be read with a high level certainty when your kids are at stake. Clear and present danger indeed.
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#366370 - 02/28/08 08:31 PM Re: Student wears bullet proof vest to school.... [Re: Fletch1]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Fletch, I don't really disagree with you about any of that... but look at it another way as well. My son got into a tiff at school (years ago), and when I showed up at the principal's office, the teacher was sitting there with mace on her keychain...
Quote:

His can of clear out/ tear gas, even empty, qualifies as a weapon on school grounds especially based on it's capabilities in a crowded school. The can being empty means little more than a gun being empty.




That is why I often question the idea that only students pose a threat at a school.

I agree that he probably thought he looked cool wearing the flak jacket, but body armor won't protect you from mace or pepper spray... so the "fix" didn't fit the problem... especially if he was the one with the tear gas.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#366371 - 02/28/08 10:28 PM Re: Student wears bullet proof vest to school.... [Re: wristtwister]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
I think what we are not connecting with here is the totality of the circumstances which include the emotional climate of the community after numerous active shooter incidents (five notable ones in the USA in just this month of February). Like it or not, it shapes the lives and beliefs of many people and becomes part of the circumstances and consequences of those that choose to liken themselves to those who would go to a school or gathering place with a weapon for evil purposes.

Notre Dame Elementary shooting Portsmouth, Ohio, United States February 7, 2008

Louisiana Technical College shooting Baton Rouge, Louisiana, United States February 8, 2008

Mitchell High School shooting Memphis, Tennessee, United States February 11, 2008

E.O. Green School shooting Oxnard, California, United States February 12, 2008

Northern Illinois University shooting DeKalb, Illinois, United States February 14, 2008
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www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#366372 - 02/29/08 08:00 AM Re: Student wears bullet proof vest to school.... [Re: Fletch1]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
As for the teachers key ring? I personally think it sets a bad example but a miniature can of pepper spray on a key ring can hardly be compared to an OC/CS grenade (Clear-out) designed to disperse jail riots and flush drug dealers on search warrants.

I am an instructor under the company that makes Clear-Out. It is potent stuff.
_________________________
www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#366373 - 02/29/08 08:35 AM Re: Student wears bullet proof vest to school.... [Re: Fletch1]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
To comment further:

The schoolboard where I was a resource officer has just terminated the employment of a teacher who had a firearm in his vehicle in the parking lot.

The schoolboard sees any weapon, unless in the possession of a LEO as a threat and will file charges and/or terminate.

He was also charged with possession/firearm at the behest of the schoolboard.

K

If that teacher was in my school district there would have been consequences reference the mace...
K
_________________________
Remembering 3655K

Nothing is impossible for the person that doesn't have to do it.

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#366374 - 02/29/08 10:57 AM Re: Student wears bullet proof vest to school.... [Re: hunterkell]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
when I was about 10, I moved from a place that was very big on hunting to an urban center. my old middle school had had a rifle range on premises. I asked my new principal if they had a rifle range or team, and he totally freaked out, basically saying that any weapons of any kind were grounds for suspention. as a 10 year old from a hunting community, I thought it strange. and an urban adult, I think that it is perfectly normal and correct behavior.

I do not think that it is a good thing to encourage or accept kids to collect weapons or think that they are cool. period. for a teenager to have these types of weapons, to me, is an indication of poor parenting. by the way, I collected innapropriate weapons as a kid, and I believe it wa a weakness in the parenting of my parents, too.

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